Author Topic: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?  (Read 54660 times)

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Offline thezaman

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2009, 06:58:15 PM »
 I have talked to a couple of manufactures and a pre built oven would only fit in my building by  removing a window ,which is possible .  i don't know if i want to invest 7000 euros plus shipping yet. i may do a non Neapolitan oven and promote wood fired organics instead. my restaurant is in a college town and my college customer count is not that good. Next week 8/12-8/15 i am going to take a vpn class after that i will decide which direction to go. later i will list the oven companies i have talked with, and hopefully some forum feed back. thanks


Offline Mo

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2009, 11:36:07 PM »
I have talked to a couple of manufactures and a pre built oven would only fit in my building by  removing a window ,which is possible .  i don't know if i want to invest 7000 euros plus shipping yet. i may do a non Neapolitan oven and promote wood fired organics instead. my restaurant is in a college town and my college customer count is not that good. Next week 8/12-8/15 i am going to take a vpn class after that i will decide which direction to go. later i will list the oven companies i have talked with, and hopefully some forum feed back. thanks

I know a couple of the American distributors of Italian ovens offer the possibility of a partially disassembled oven being walked in through the front door and being reassembled by a tech guy that works with the company you buy from. It will cost you around $750 plus a plane ticket to go this route but may be cheaper than removing windows and renting fork trucks, cranes, helicopters or other such heavy machinery...

Offline pcampbell

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2009, 09:01:50 AM »
10,000 bucks isn't that much for an oven!

Fornobravo modulars are around 7k,but then you need to build the facade, etc.

What are the requirements for a VPN oven?  I don't think that it actually requires an Italian oven or italian man to make the oven.  Pretty sure it just needs to cook the pizzas in 90 seconds and burn wood. 

If i were doing this, I'd think hard about building an oven from scratch if it is feasible.  This way you pay the least (probably) and get the pride of building your own unique oven and get bragging rights :)  You can also built it with a lower dome than most commercial modular ovens or pre-fabbed ovens will give you.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 09:04:04 AM by pcampbell »
Patrick

Offline Mo

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2009, 10:17:56 AM »

If i were doing this, I'd think hard about building an oven from scratch if it is feasible.  This way you pay the least (probably) and get the pride of building your own unique oven and get bragging rights :)  You can also built it with a lower dome than most commercial modular ovens or pre-fabbed ovens will give you.


Good luck getting a permit and through inspections with a "backyard special". For commercial application you need to concern yourself not only with building and mechanical codes but food safety codes as well (unless you apply for and are awarded your own NSF or ETL certification and good luck with that)...Even with commercial ovens with all of the proper UL, NSF and ETL listings, you will face a fight trying to get one of these ovens installed without an indirect vent-Type 1 hood system being required, which easily adds another $6,000-10,000 to the cost. Venting these ovens is a huge deal in a commercial application. Grease ducts, exhaust fans, direct fire suppression (Ansul, Piranha, etc) and additional HVAC capacity (makeup air units, etc) start to add up real quick.



Offline pcampbell

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2009, 10:34:54 AM »
You do not necessarily need any of those certifications.  Same with Type I hood.  Could be just a class A chimney.

What are the certifications of the various handmade site built Italian ovens?  I don't know what  or if they have any certifications.

A lot of this is just going to come down to the jurisdiction.... "You can't fight city hall".  Some are more strict than others.

A lot of them are quick to deny things they do not understand also.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 10:50:41 AM by pcampbell »
Patrick

Offline Mo

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2009, 12:55:39 PM »
You do not necessarily need any of those certifications.  Same with Type I hood.  Could be just a class A chimney.

You are wrong. I challenge you to show me a city that will ok a commercial food service oven that has neither UL nor NSF listing. As to the Type 1 hood, it is possible to get around this but, like I said in my post, very difficult to do so. Most cities are working off the latest IMC which states that any cooking appliances that produce grease-laden vapor require a Type-1 hood.

What are the certifications of the various handmade site built Italian ovens?  I don't know what  or if they have any certifications.

They all need some sort of certification. Mugnaini, for instance, have UL listings for both direct and indirect venting and ETL listings. Woodstone is UL and NSF listed. If they want to sell in this country, they need to be listed.

A lot of this is just going to come down to the jurisdiction.... "You can't fight city hall".  Some are more strict than others.

Like I said, most cities base their codes on IMC and just refine where they deem necessary. Usually, the international standards are a benchmark and they just get tougher from there.


A lot of them are quick to deny things they do not understand also.

Most of the city inspection officials I have dealt with were all very informed. It is their job to keep buildings, people, cities etc safe so I usually understand where they are coming from. You run into trouble where the code is insufficiently specific and are faced with individuals making interpretations.

Offline pcampbell

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2009, 04:33:04 PM »
Here in NJ (and we are not really a very lax state), pizza is not considered grease laden so type I is never required for pizza.

I have talked to companies who have no certification and never had a problem getting the ovens going.  Dawine in Queens, NY is an example running a non certified pacific brick oven.

I doubt American Flatbread's mud oven is certified.
Patrick

Offline Mo

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2009, 06:27:11 PM »
pcampbell:

I would say then that you are lucky to do business in a city/state that doesn't require the Type 1 hoods. Even direct venting at times requires an exhaust fan and make-up air issues. I was trying to make the OP aware of the potential costs associated with these ovens. Budgeting $12,000 for an oven and finding out it will cost another $12,000 before you can fire it up is a sobering experience.

As for hand-built, brick and mortar ovens, codes must still be satisfied, easier to do in some cities than others. I think the costs of a custom build are of a different order than the pre-assembled. Just the structural loads involved require engineering, possible reinforced slabs/floors, etc.

If it's Pacific Coast Brick ovens you're talking about, they have UL listings. What other companies have you talked to that don't have listings either for the ovens or components?

The point I am trying to make is to go in with eyes open to potential costs. If you are prepared for the worst and end up in the best circumstances, then consider yourself fortunate/genius and move on. If, on the other hand, you've prepared only for the best case scenario and find yourself being dragged down by cities/contractors etc, then you will have to answer for your lack of preparation.

Offline thezaman

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2009, 09:48:41 AM »
 in my kitchen area i only have about eight feet square  that i can get an oven into. i do not have an ansel system for my gas kettle or my pizza oven . forno bravo has a series of pizza ovens that can be shipped broken down from italy and assembled on premise. if you know of other companies let me know. my initial talk with the city has been receptive, they just allowed another restaurant a variance to use a wood fired bbq on premise . my biggest concern is that adding another product to my menu is going to add confusion on my busy nights .
 i am leaning towards a mobile oven which then can be used on premise as well as special events. i need to find out what cost variables such as food permits are going to add to an event cost. as you can tell i am all over the place on this idea. any thoughts on the mobil oven, they are around 16000.00 dollars.  i could then do a neapolitan night on my patio during my summer months and sell off premiss events . we also have 4 wineries within 10 miles of us.


Offline thezaman

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2009, 11:48:14 AM »
Just returned from the vpn training at antica,i have to say that the information picked up on this forum on the Neapolitan pizza gave me a head start on the learning process. making and cooking multiple pizzas was a real experience. i learned three different stretching techniques which were done in slow motion i will post them tonight.

Online dzpiez

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2009, 03:04:32 PM »
Hey thezaman, how did ya like the VPN training?  I took the 6 day training a year ago and not only did I learn alot, but had so much fun.  Learned alot from Peppe, and Jose is the best.  And you can go to portablebrickpizzaoven.com for a mobile oven, there out of Colorado and us Forno Bravo's ovens on there trailers.

Offline thezaman

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2009, 04:10:30 PM »
it was a great learning experience! i never thought  on Wednesday by friday i would be able to bake four pizzas at a time in that oven. but, by friday i felt comfortable cooking . shaping the skins will take a lot of practice, and  to make and bake quickly  is a long learning experience.
  jose is one of the nicest and most dedicated people i have ever met, pepe is lucky to have him. i also meet a lot of wonderful hard working employees ,they never stop . if they are not making a dinning room order they are prepping or cleaning. it was a great experience and the learning curve is a lot faster because of this web site. i was able to learn a lot of non pizza related things that i can use every day at my business. when i get home from work i am going to post  three stretching methods demonstrated by jose.

Online dzpiez

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2009, 12:13:17 AM »
I think I gained about 20 lbs. by the end of the sixth day of the VPN training.  And yep, Jose is the best.  Antica is about 30 minutes away, so I end up going there every now and then to get a bag of Caputo.  And you are right, but the 4th. day you get used to slinging pies in and out of that oven 3 and even 4 at a time.

Offline thezaman

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2009, 12:33:29 AM »
here is a video of jose showing three stretching methods , the third one is what he uses when he needs to make pizzas quickly ,you can here the dough stretching from the centrifugal  force

Online dzpiez

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2009, 12:44:19 AM »
Yep, that's Jose. haha  Never can get the third one down, the first two no problemo.  What did ya think of there fork mixer?

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2009, 12:48:06 AM »
Zaman,  thanks for sharing that video.  They all look like great techniques.  I wonder if they all produce the same pizza.  Also,  I would like you to enlighten us on the dough hydration and fermentation regimen.  thanks -marc

Offline thezaman

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2009, 11:54:21 AM »
marc,the third stretching method made the dough even across the bottom .the second method left the rim flatter less airy . the vpn method of putting the back of your right hand next to the right rim then pull the left side with three fingers and rotate the dough a quarter turn is the method they want used. it makes the center thinner and it gets thicker as you get to the raised edge .
   the dough method used 79 deg water, hydration of 60 percent, 15 minute mix with finished temp of 83 to 84 degrees. a one hour  rise in a covered container, cut into 9 oz balls floured bottom of the dough tray placed 8 per tray and covered, then into the cooler which was at  38 degrees . the kitchen was about 87 degrees . the kneading method was different, you place the dough in your hands and your fingers together as if folding them  or cracking your knuckles, then you rotate and it  seals the dough. this also works with the mozzarella.


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2009, 12:09:16 PM »
Zaman,  thanks very interesting.  How long were the dough balls cold fermented before use?  also do you have any pictures of the finished product?  thanks again.  -marc

Offline thezaman

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2009, 02:17:10 PM »
 the dough was from two days maximum to 18 hours minimum . we did get into friday morning dough made at ten am at about 9 pm that night which was room risen for one hour before use . i will send some pics tonight .

Offline trelk

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2009, 08:44:44 PM »
thanks for the video.  maybe i have been reading too much peter reinhart but shouldn't one do their best not to pop all those air bubbles in the dough?

Offline thezaman

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2009, 09:26:57 AM »
 if you look at some of the video of pizza makers in naples they seem to  stretch the dough  pretty aggressively . then you look at the explanation in the new video that was put up yesterday and he made a point of preserving the air in the dough. we need a explanation by one of the members that does this for a living.

Offline jimd

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2009, 09:36:50 AM »
ZaMan, you are right. I am also confused by the new stretching video, as that is the first time I have heard someone indicate that you should keep the fingers spread apart while pressing down so as not to press too much air from the dough. On the new video, the skin resulting from this method appears fully stretched, and my guess is that the difference may be very subtle.

For convenience, I will re-post a link to the new video below.

http://www.myrecipes.com/recipes/local-flavor/video/0,28816,1907779,00.html

Jim

Offline PETE

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2009, 02:00:13 AM »
BRUNO arrived from Naples in perfect condition.

Offline Barry

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2009, 09:00:43 AM »
Hi PETE,

Your BRUNO looks fantastic ! Is it the model that is 1.3 metres in diameter ?

Are there also Wheels ?

Is there a special "burn in" proceedure that you need to follow ?

Kind regards.

Barry

Offline PETE

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2009, 09:02:03 PM »
Barry it is the 130 cm model, and if can be ordered with wheels.  The oven must be cured by starting small fires.  An hour after starting the small fire, the fire bricks inside the oven turn jet black due to the moisture, we are currently on the 4th day of curing and the oven bricks have turned clear (white), which means its almost ready.  It is amazing how hot the oven gets and the small amount of wood it takes to achieve high temperatures.


 

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