cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?

[pizzanapoletana]

I did make some mistakes so let me clarify as I also have mistypes and assumed you knew the background.

At Franco Manca we open at about 12 and close from 16.30. 500+ pizza are made in that time frame with the majority made in the 90 minutes mentioned before. 240 pizza an hour are made on average in that 90 minutes. Our ovens can output (as done in Naples) about 280 pizza an hour with people with experience. 5 pizza at the time.

Can your oven even get closer to that? no way.

You like facts and are sceptical? Here are the facts. Can I prove it? YES. Even a guy called Michael the baker I believe, that is a member of this forum, apparently did a sting at Franco Manca and PM me to tell me how impress he was by those volumes...

There is also a lot of press coverage on that operations with the queques etc...

The approach to ingredients is similar to the one taken at Franco Manca, where local, organic and seasonal is relevant to their approach. What was not questionable was what type of oven to select to achieve a type of dough and output quality that the owner had in mind... Pictures attached as a Salsiccia made with a locoal rare breed

Tradition may evolve over time, but we are talking abour 300 + years of almost unchanged tradition!!!! You can make your own one and hope it will last that long.



Edit: I found this pictures of what I believe is your pizza? http://www.flickr.com/photos/juddfurlong/4321580920/ and there is another one on the Vesuvious  website that is more or less like that.

[GotRocks]

Maybe I need to make a distinction here to ease the confusion.

Instead of using the term "Neapolitan Oven" maybe just use "Wood-fired Oven" in place of that term?

To clarify further, I am personally looking for a commercial wood-fired oven with similar attributes as a Neapolitan oven. It Doe snot need to be built in Naples, from the 13th generation of oven builders. But I want an oven with similar heat and fuel usage characteristic.

I do not plan to pursue VPN certification, I do not plan to duplicate a true Neapolitan pizza, I just want an oven that has those capabilites should the need  arise in the future.
In the mean time I am trying to narrow down a list of oven manufacturers by their capabilities so I only need to purchase one oven that I can use for a few different styles of Pizza with the least amount of pain possible.

[Mo]

I did make some mistakes so let me clarify as I also have mistypes and assumed you knew the background.

At Franco Manca we open at about 12 and close from 16.30. 500+ pizza are made in that time frame with the majority made in the 90 minutes mentioned before. 240 pizza an hour are made on average in that 90 minutes. Our ovens can output (as done in Naples) about 280 pizza an hour with people with experience. 5 pizza at the time.

Can your oven even get closer to that? no way.

You like facts and are sceptical? Here are the facts. Can I prove it? YES. Even a guy called Michael the baker I believe, that is a member of this forum, apparently did a sting at Franco Manca and PM me to tell me how impress he was by those volumes...

There is also a lot of press coverage on that operations with the queques etc...

The approach to ingredients is similar to the one taken at Franco Manca, where local, organic and seasonal is relevant to their approach. What was not questionable was what type of oven to select to achieve a type of dough and output quality that the owner had in mind... Pictures attached as a Salsiccia made with a locoal rare breed

Tradition may evolve over time, but we are talking abour 300 + years of almost unchanged tradition!!!! You can make your own one and hope it will last that long.



Edit: I found this pictures of what I believe is your pizza? http://www.flickr.com/photos/juddfurlong/4321580920/ and there is another one on the Vesuvious  website that is more or less like that.

Well, that's admittedly not a great picture of one of ours. I would imagine that was taken in the first week or two when we were still working out the kinks. We have gotten better since. After the first week or so of learning the particulars of our oven, I have been able to put out a much better looking product. You will see in ours now much better leoparding and browning. The pizza you've shown is obviously out of an oven that wasn't hot enough. Chalk it up to operator error rather than equipment.

And there's no need to try to talk down to me Marco. I was merely asking a question about how long it took your oven to cook 500 pizzas. You said that you can do over 500 in less than three hours so I was curious how that broke down. Like I said earlier, we can do about 120 an hour.


And Marco, if you're ever in Ames, Iowa I would love to have you come in and see what we can do.

Time to go cook pizzas.

[pizzanapoletana]

If the need arise in the future to make neapolitan pizza then there is not an oven rather then the neapolitan hand built one (and I have specified what is the definition of neapolitan)that would help you achieve that. That is it... You may want to vivit il Pizzaiolo in Pittsburgh PA and ask him what the oven change has done for him....

The positive is that a neapolitan oven can be used to bake other pizz by managing down the heat, whilst you cannot push up the heat to the same level of a neapolitan oven without loosing the balance with other wood ovens...

There are many ovens that are suitable to 2-3 or more  minutes pizza.

Good luck with your venture.

Maybe I need to make a distinction here to ease the confusion.

Instead of using the term "Neapolitan Oven" maybe just use "Wood-fired Oven" in place of that term?

To clarify further, I am personally looking for a commercial wood-fired oven with similar attributes as a Neapolitan oven. It Doe snot need to be built in Naples, from the 13th generation of oven builders. But I want an oven with similar heat and fuel usage characteristic.

I do not plan to pursue VPN certification, I do not plan to duplicate a true Neapolitan pizza, I just want an oven that has those capabilites should the need  arise in the future.
In the mean time I am trying to narrow down a list of oven manufacturers by their capabilities so I only need to purchase one oven that I can use for a few different styles of Pizza with the least amount of pain possible.

[Mo]

If the need arise in the future to make neapolitan pizza then there is not an oven rather then the neapolitan hand built one (and I have specified what is the definition of neapolitan)that would help you achieve that. That is it... You may want to vivit il Pizzaiolo in Pittsburgh PA and ask him what the oven change has done for him....

The positive is that a neapolitan oven can be used to bake other pizz by managing down the heat, whilst you cannot push up the heat to the same level of a neapolitan oven without loosing the balance with other wood ovens...

There are many ovens that are suitable to 2-3 or more  minutes pizza.

Good luck with your venture.

I promised you pics so here they are. One has calabrese salami from Columbus in SF, and the other has a light cream sauce with prosciutto from La Quercia.


mo.

[pizzanapoletana]

Thanks for the pictures. Leaving aside the defective of handling and the dough itself that are visible, those pizza looks to me drier and crispier due to the longer cooking time, which I guess are  closer or north of two minutes.. Those are burnt spots not leapoarding. My honest view.

[Mo]

Thanks for the pictures. Leaving aside the defective of handling and the dough itself that are visible, those pizza looks to me drier and crispier due to the longer cooking time, which I guess are  closer or north of two minutes.. Those are burnt spots not leapoarding. My honest view.

Defects in handling? Burnt spots? Come on, dude, now you're just making stuff up.

I think at this point it's clear you are not impressed with anything but yourself. I didn't expect much more.

[Infoodel]

Cos these are real leopard spots not burnt? 

[Infoodel]

More leoparding or 'burnt' spots 

[Infoodel]

Defective handling or 'rustic authenticity'?

[shango]

Now we're off track!

Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder.

Oh, and picture #7 is definitely burnt.  I would eat all the rest of the pictures.

and While we're at it, how is mine?  It came from a POS pompeii oven that was built by Illegal immigrants that took it upon themselves to put two openings on the oven, one on either side, and a flue also.  Hahaha!

[pizzanapoletana]

Infodel,

Indeed all the pictures you have found on the net show other types of defective handling and burnt spots, but the dough still shows proper baking rise which also tells me something else. Indeed out of an output of several thousands a week, unfortunatelly the team let go out some pizza like that to the table. But those are not models pie that I would post as confrontation, and indeed forms part of my weekly feedback to the team.

Am I making things up? That is why I get paid to spot and correct those mistakes. The pizza in Mo's pictures are completelly flat and lifeless. Big, single burnt bubles are not leoparding but shows defects. Those are results of poor handling and dough making.

Even in the burnt pizza Infodel posted, which still come out around the minute, you can see a larger proportion of tiny, well spread leoparding. The burnt was probably caused by 10 second too much in the oven.  I do not believe thse pictures are quite recent. As I said it is extremely difficult to work on a neapolitan oven, especially with our output and the fact that we have often trained new people, when I am sure those pictures are from. But what do I know?

Edit:  And a better example of what leoparding, proper handling and  our oven can achieve can be found  at this client website: http://www.pizzeriasalvo.it/ (click on Galleria and enjoy). The dough and attention to details is top notch, the volumes are similar and the oven complete the pictures cooking at around the minute.

[shango]

In my defense, it was quite humid that day.

[Infoodel]

Infodel,

Indeed all the pictures you have found on the net show other types of defective handling and burnt spots, but the dough still shows proper baking rise which also tells me something else. Indeed out of an output of several thousands a week, unfortunatelly the team let go out some pizza like that to the table. But those are not models pie that I would post as confrontation, and indeed forms part of my weekly feedback to the team.

Am I making things up? That is why I get paid to spot and correct those mistakes. The pizza in Mo's pictures are completelly flat and lifeless. Big, single burnt bubles are not leoparding but shows defects. Those are results of poor handling and dough making.

Even in the burnt pizza Infodel posted, which still come out around the minute, you can see a larger proportion of tiny, well spread leoparding. The burnt was probably caused by 10 second too much in the oven.  I do not believe thse pictures are quite recent. As I said it is extremely difficult to work on a neapolitan oven, especially with our output and the fact that we have often trained new people, when I am sure those pictures are from. But what do I know?

Agreed if you're making as many pies as you say (240 an hour!) then I would expect a few to come out slightly under par. However the 6 pictures I posted were from 6 different pies and on 6 different occasions (er maybe 5).
The picture you posted of the sausage pie was from the Chiswick branch, am I right?
I'm curious because I hope to visit Franco Manca v. soon. Question is - which branch should I visit and will you be manning the ovens? If at all possible, I'd like the full Marco experience

[pizzanapoletana]

Agreed if you're making as many pies as you say (240 an hour!) then I would expect a few to come out slightly under par. However the 6 pictures I posted were from 6 different pies and on 6 different occasions (er maybe 5).
The picture you posted of the sausage pie was from the Chiswick branch, am I right?
I'm curious because I hope to visit Franco Manca v. soon. Question is - which branch should I visit and will you be manning the ovens? If at all possible, I'd like the full Marco experience

It was Chiswick indeed, where because of the new status, the better team is working (both guys are neapolitan trained). I would rarely go there to man the oven, but would be happy to be there (even in Brixton) at the same time as you to cook you a pizza. Anyway, from different occasions as you said, but not recently. I am pretty confident as the cheese we use, still from Alham Farms in Sommerset, just recently got better in the melting qualities (as I said since the beginning, there we had the most issues).

I have pictures of the last few pizza I baked in brixton but having problem to reduce in size to post. In Any case, I guess if you visited you have seen both the speed and volume of output...

[Mo]

As I said it is extremely difficult to work on a neapolitan oven, especially with our output and the fact that we have often trained new people, when I am sure those pictures are from.

I thought the point of a True Neapolitan Pizza Oven was that it cooked pizzas flawlessly in 60 seconds or less. Did I miss soemthing?

But what do I know?

I'm starting to wonder...

[scott123]

Edit:  And a better example of what leoparding, proper handling and  our oven can achieve can be found  at this client website: http://www.pizzeriasalvo.it/ (click on Galleria and enjoy). The dough and attention to details is top notch, the volumes are similar and the oven complete the pictures cooking at around the minute.

I'm a NY style guy to the core, so it's very rare that Neapolitan pies reach out and grab my attention.  The pies pictured here, though, look amazing.  Whatever time window they have to get these pizzas out of the oven- they're hitting it.

That being said... this gum layer so proudly displayed in the photo below doesn't give me much confidence in this establishment.

[Infoodel]

I'm a NY style guy to the core, so it's very rare that Neapolitan pies reach out and grab my attention.  The pies pictured here, though, look amazing.  Whatever time window they have to get these pizzas out of the oven- they're hitting it.

That being said... this gum layer so proudly displayed in the photo below doesn't give me much confidence in this establishment.

Scott, are we seeing the same thing? 'cause what I see there is a well cooked cornicione. The 'glistening' (translucent) crumb is indicative to me of a well-cooked, high hydration dough. I'm used to seeing the same thing in a loaf of 'rustic' sourdough bread that may have been in the oven for 30 to 40 minutes.
edit: although granted towards the left, where the sauce hits the pie, it does look a little gummier.

[thezaman]

 wow has this thread gotten interesting ,i truly believe that the ovens built specifically for neapolitan pizza do a better job than one that is designed for general use. if the cook isn't cranking out 250 pies per hour i think you can get by with a general purpose oven. it will take a lot of work to cook a perfect pizza,but it can be done. marco talks about true neapolitan ovens being superior and they probably are ,they use less fuel, burn hot but gentle. there is a reference on the web by the owner of motorino and his comparison of the old upn oven and his renato oven at the brooklyn store. according to him the upn oven is much easier to use ,a more consistent cooking oven. i never had the brooklyn pizza but i did have the old upn,new motorino pizza and it was very good. it showed a lot of the characteristics that marco talks about.
  my opinions are based on only eating at a few neapolitan pizzerias and trying to bake in my back yard a pizza similar.i have had success only on a few occasions . this is where i realize that neapolitan pizza is a very hard product to produce at the restaurant level. i started this thread and if i ever do a neapolitan pizzeria i will purchase the one that marco advertises or the one that motorino uses. if i decide to go with organics such as bianco does a non neapolitan oven will be fine.
 my issue is that i am already in the business and i will have to hire a 50 to 60 thousand dollar a year manager to run my joint so i can pursue something that i cannot do at an acceptable level . so i am incorporating this pizza style at my pizzeria using a american made oven. i then can hone my skills and hopefully do this in my old age. any one going to amano this week end look for a fat guy with a big nose it be me. lets compare notes.
 

[pizzanapoletana]

Mo,

Indeed 60 seconds, so if a new guy cannot yet handle 5 pizza at the time, it will be that 1 or 2 per batch may stay in the oven too long (seconds)... If he had to back 2 or 3 at the time to have your output, all should be spotless. It is also important to note that at Peak, the oven is run match hotter that I would ideally run it at, so the baking time is often closer to 45 seconds....

And on experience  and knowledge on dough and ovens it will be fun to compete, any day...

I also invite you to visit us if you ever are in London.

Scott123,

Are you commenting on a perfectly risen cornicione??? Talking about gummy? You probably like crispy pizza, but pizza was born soft as it was a different product from crusty bread and crispy flat breads... Even a crispy pizza could have such a cornicione, which is an indication of perfect oven spring at very hot temperatures, with the right gluten development and maturation.

Anyway, as you said  you like the NYC that is basically a Neapolitan inspired pizza that is cooked  for longer resulting in a dryier, less lively products. What americans define as soggy pizza, for us means that the topping ingredients are not stressed and the freshness preserved. Different point of view. I could eat Totonno's pizza, but John's in Bleecker street is something taht should not be produced...