Author Topic: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?  (Read 56121 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #125 on: March 01, 2010, 11:49:12 AM »
You are not an idiot, and are completelly right. You eventually get to bake 5 pizza at the time with no problems like thay are doing more recently that the Fornaio has learned his trade. However, at the time he was learning it would have been better doing as you explained. This has been a point of major feedback from me to the owner and team. We are designing a training programme so that trainee will only be allowed on the secondary oven (normally unmanned during service and used for bread). But again, this is Franco Manca where we have queques for hours and the pressure has caused the restaurant manager for total output rather then quality (against by wrost nightmare)..


Back to the Neapolitan oven dependency, once you have a good team, then there is not comparison possibles... And as there are probably only few places where you need to output at 240 per hour (namely Naples, London, probably NYC and few others), then  with a more reasonable 180 per hour, you would still bake the best pizza in the world thanks to the Neapolitan oven!

I was checking teh pictures of other places that use your oven to sell pizza napoletana, even under the VPN membership, and all were affected by the longer cooking times....

That is why I belive that VPN membership should be linked to the proper tools as they would use it in Naples. If they do not use a prefab oven because is not good, why are these good for people abroad? Yes many years ago was difficult to get a Neapolitan ovens abroad aside of built on site, but now is different.

Ciao


Edit: Crisp and burnt are two different things (That is not what I was referring to). A pizza can be burnt and still soft....


I'll just make one more observation and then I'm going to leave it alone (maybe)...If you are cooking 5 pizzas at a time at peak service and you admit that one or two is left in too long then that means (mathematically) that somewhere between 48-96 pizzas during peak service are overdone, resulting in the, shall we say, very Crispy (some may call it burned) looking pizzas pictured earlier. Granted I'm new to pizzas but I've been cheffing in kitchens for a long time and that sounds like not very good quality control for the sake of putting out large numbers of pizzas. Wouldn't they be better off cooking two or three at a time to better standards rather than accepting mediocre results for large numbers of pizzas?

Again, I 'm a rookie and probably an idiot, so help me understand.

mo.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 12:09:13 PM by pizzanapoletana »


Offline andreguidon

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1169
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Sao Paulo
  • Hot WFO always !!!
    • www.andreguidon.com
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2010, 12:40:54 PM »
 ;D very interesting discussion !!  ;D

iam posting a link, but iam not jugging the quality of the pizza, just the speed... and how may pizzas where in the oven at the same time...

http://www.youtube.com/user/andreguidon#p/f/27/FNiDsgb78T4
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15810
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #127 on: March 01, 2010, 01:32:54 PM »
For home use? Build your own! That was why we started a thread on wood ovens many years ago.. for home use approximation...

Marco,

Are there any special considerations/concerns when building a brick oven for use in a very high humidity area such as Houston, TX?

What diameter would you reccomend for home use?

Thanks,
Craig
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 02:04:12 PM by TXCraig1 »
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline shango

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 344
  • Age: 41
  • Location: right here
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2010, 01:47:36 PM »
In my 2amys days, the most pizze we ever had in the oven was 18.  It took a lot of shuffling and juggling. The temperature would swing wildly..we would have the oven stuffed like that for hours, and even though it was difficult, took many people to pull off, etc..  We could easily produce 200 mediocre pizze per hour.

This was a woodstone Mt. Baker-strictly wood fueled.  I am not recommending the oven, but stating that high production levels can be achieved with anything, I think.  The quality of the pizze was what suffered, not the owner's pocket.
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline Mo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 210
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #129 on: March 01, 2010, 01:57:11 PM »
In my 2amys days, the most pizze we ever had in the oven was 18.  It took a lot of shuffling and juggling. The temperature would swing wildly..we would have the oven stuffed like that for hours, and even though it was difficult, took many people to pull off, etc..  We could easily produce 200 mediocre pizze per hour.

This was a woodstone Mt. Baker-strictly wood fueled.  I am not recommending the oven, but stating that high production levels can be achieved with anything, I think.  The quality of the pizze was what suffered, not the owner's pocket.

18 in a Mt Baker? Incredible! I've only tried to go to 8 in our 140x160cm Valoriani. We turn tables quickly enough with 10 minute ticket times at our most saturated. In this town, people are accustomed to waiting 30 minutes just to get a table somewhere, so 10 minutes from order time to food on the table at 7:00 on a Friday is looking pretty good.



Offline shango

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 344
  • Age: 41
  • Location: right here
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2010, 02:12:15 PM »
At Bebo I used a Cirigliano Forni, at RedRocks, a Renato, At Ciro a Woodstone, at Al Forno A Woodstone gas/wood assist with under floor burner, (garbage), Used a Mugnani several times at a friends house, and a Forno Bravo a few times.. Not to mention a homemade pompeii or two.. Used a built on site at Fratelli la Buffala too, don't know who made it..

For my own place, I acquired a real Neapolitan oven. 

 :chef:
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 02:18:33 PM by shango »
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #131 on: March 02, 2010, 05:21:38 AM »
One last post that should summarise the issue for me.

Edan with your 130 cm oven (if I remember correctly) and the right experienced team, with 6 pizze at the time you can cook potentialy 360 pizze an hour, all cooked perfectly with the help of the oven.

As you stated, not only by cooking 18 at the time you di not get to the above output, but those were also mediocre pizza.

More importantly, so far in America, people that have similar experience of non neapolitan vs neapolitan, have already expressed their opinion on the change, namely Settebello in Las Vegas, Il Pizzaiolo in Pittsbugh, and Motorino in NYC... So these people runs businesses and have come to the same conclusion, but I guess there is still reason to be sceptical of a marketing ploy ;-)

Offline pcampbell

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 768
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Warren VT
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #132 on: March 02, 2010, 07:02:43 AM »
;D very interesting discussion !!  ;D

iam posting a link, but iam not jugging the quality of the pizza, just the speed... and how may pizzas where in the oven at the same time...

http://www.youtube.com/user/andreguidon#p/f/27/FNiDsgb78T4

 i like that... 8 in 4 minutes...
Patrick

Offline shango

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 344
  • Age: 41
  • Location: right here
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #133 on: March 02, 2010, 09:08:58 AM »
One last post that should summarise the issue for me.

Edan with your 130 cm oven (if I remember correctly) and the right experienced team, with 6 pizze at the time you can cook potentialy 360 pizze an hour, all cooked perfectly with the help of the oven.

As you stated, not only by cooking 18 at the time you di not get to the above output, but those were also mediocre pizza.

More importantly, so far in America, people that have similar experience of non neapolitan vs neapolitan, have already expressed their opinion on the change, namely Settebello in Las Vegas, Il Pizzaiolo in Pittsbugh, and Motorino in NYC... So these people runs businesses and have come to the same conclusion, but I guess there is still reason to be sceptical of a marketing ploy ;-)

Well, in all fairness, at the time 2amys only had about a hundred seats, we could have produced more pizze hourly, but it was hard to turn tables any faster..

Having said that, what is important, and what I said intentionally in my previous post.  "mediocre pizza".  (although honestly, people in DC love that place)

pizza, pizza, pizza


Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #134 on: March 02, 2010, 02:59:46 PM »
;D very interesting discussion !!  ;D

iam posting a link, but iam not jugging the quality of the pizza, just the speed... and how may pizzas where in the oven at the same time...

http://www.youtube.com/user/andreguidon#p/f/27/FNiDsgb78T4

Andre,

I just watched the video


8 x 29cm pizza. I would do 6 x 35cm... Still a 130cm oven give you that capacity.
The guy was doing all by imself in 3.50. You need at least 2 more assistants (better 3) to turn up the volumes I was talking about. I said many time, that the FORNAIO is a job by itself in Naples, and whilst all "pizzaiuoli" have started as Fornaio, many fornaio never graduates and makes it to the pizza making table.

There are other comments to be made but hopefully you can understand my point.

Offline andreguidon

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1169
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Sao Paulo
  • Hot WFO always !!!
    • www.andreguidon.com
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #135 on: March 02, 2010, 03:32:08 PM »
Hi Marco, sure i understand... just posted a video, cause it was very interesting seeing one guy doing all that... and there was no burned pizzas... again not commenting on the quality...
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #136 on: March 02, 2010, 05:14:21 PM »
Hi Marco, sure i understand... just posted a video, cause it was very interesting seeing one guy doing all that... and there was no burned pizzas... again not commenting on the quality...

the pizze were not burned because the oven was running much cooler tha we run it at franco manca... the guy can clearly bee seen adding a piece of wood and still there was no light in the oven.......


Edit:

Evidence on the temp
1.32 min first pizza goes in.
3.04 min first pizza comes out.
That is 92 seconds or 1.32 mins


Not commenting on quality is fine, but the final product is affected....
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 05:20:49 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline andreguidon

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1169
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Sao Paulo
  • Hot WFO always !!!
    • www.andreguidon.com
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #137 on: March 02, 2010, 05:35:51 PM »
i agree, but could it be done right ? (one guy doing every thing).... this is just curiosity... and is that a Neapolitan oven ?

and Marco, you go 35cm, what is your dough ball weight ? (i know is done by eye, but a approximated number)

thanks for all the info. !!

André
 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 05:37:22 PM by andreguidon »
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #138 on: March 03, 2010, 04:23:02 AM »
i agree, but could it be done right ? (one guy doing every thing).... this is just curiosity... and is that a Neapolitan oven ?

and Marco, you go 35cm, what is your dough ball weight ? (i know is done by eye, but a approximated number)

thanks for all the info. !!

André
 

Of Course it can be done as the guy at that rhythm will be turning 140 pizza an hour, mostly mediocre pizza. I think until I post a video of Franco Manca at peak all this are just words... It looks like a neapolitan imitation and I believe I know who made it because we have to replace a similar one in the province north of Naples after Easter.


My panielli are north of 250g, never less that that.

And, I may have mentioned this before, but in Naples, when the pizzeria open early in the morning, they re-form the dough balls from the day before in smaller balls and bake 10-12 small 25 cm pizza at the time while the oven was being rewarmed in the morning. Topped only with tomatoes and basil and occasionally 2 cubes of mozzarella. Those pizza are sold to students going to school off a glass display on the street. When I was a kid those were sold for 1000 Lire or about 50 cents of Euro of today..
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 06:55:29 AM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline andreguidon

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1169
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Sao Paulo
  • Hot WFO always !!!
    • www.andreguidon.com
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #139 on: March 03, 2010, 05:18:52 AM »
yea, my mother in law  is from Naples, and she always tells me that story about the cheap pizza sold in the morning...

thanks Marco !!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline andreguidon

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1169
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Sao Paulo
  • Hot WFO always !!!
    • www.andreguidon.com
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #140 on: March 03, 2010, 07:04:12 AM »
found some videos of franco manca on youtube... the pizzas look very good !!




"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline David

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 966
  • What’s So Funny ‘Bout Pizza Love and Understanding
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #141 on: March 03, 2010, 10:43:20 AM »
PFT posted this link elsewhere and no one has commented on it:



He mention Marco and raises some  points regarding Neapolitan ovens.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market


Infoodel

  • Guest
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #142 on: March 03, 2010, 11:11:21 AM »
Can't believe no-one mentioned this:
making pizza (at Franco Manca)


Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #143 on: March 03, 2010, 11:41:04 AM »
I do not haver access to media streeming until later today, so can someone confirm or tell me more on the following, so I can reply with accurate information:

1) What are the two videos that Andre posted shows?

2) David's links: Does it refer to a video of PF Taylor giving a presentation? Does he mention me with regards to Neapolitan emigrants and does it mention Ovens in Humid environment?(many inaccuracy.... so if it is the case I will clarify )

3) The video by infodel: Is it a tall guy with the bear and a bandana on the head? IF so that is Rafa, now a very good Fornaio and the video was not shot off service....... He is not the pizzamaker even though is now learning that aspect as well...

Thanks

Offline andreguidon

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1169
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Sao Paulo
  • Hot WFO always !!!
    • www.andreguidon.com
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #144 on: March 03, 2010, 11:43:53 AM »
Hi Marco, the videos ive posted are just customers eating pizza....

PFTs video is the presentation one yes...

infodeel posted exactly the video you mentioned, is Rafa brazilian ??
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Infoodel

  • Guest
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #145 on: March 03, 2010, 12:00:33 PM »
.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 12:15:01 PM by Infoodel »

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #146 on: March 03, 2010, 12:04:25 PM »
Hi Marco, the videos ive posted are just customers eating pizza....

PFTs video is the presentation one yes...

infodeel posted exactly the video you mentioned, is Rafa brazilian ??

Thanks,

Then :

1- No comment as I have not seen it before.

2- I respect the passion of PFt and the leap he took in opening a pizzeria and I thank him for the mention but he would have been better to say from who and where he learned the majority of stuff (as he confirmed in writing a while ago) and not only on pizzaioli emigration... More importantly the quote on humidity could not have been worst: We once exchanged PMs because he wanted to buy an authentic Neapolitan oven for his garden and I told him it was not ideal because of the humidity and the rain. These are professional ovens designed for indoor use in pizzerias. Apparently there is a Neapolitan oven in Tampa and they operate with no problem inside a pizzeria . What is more, the brother of the owner of Donna Margherita in London -UK was in Tampa helping opening up that place at the time and confirmed how better our ovens at Donna Margherita is ;-). I appreciate people need to build up marketing stories but I believe they also need to keep it real.... In any case the good thing is that there is someone else offering artisans pizza against the chain in USA.

3-Rafa is Brazilian and he learned very well as a Fornaio.. To be honest the best Fornai I have ever seen or taught outside Naples were one Argentinian and the other is Rafa. No problem in posting it Infodel, just clarifying to avoid as happened early on in this post and others, then people may start assessing the speed, the quality etc...

Offline GotRocks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 326
  • Location: up to my butt in snow
  • Trying to get financing sucks!
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #147 on: March 03, 2010, 12:10:28 PM »
Marco, I was really hoping that you would be able to offer some unbiased information in relation to other brands of commercial WFO's that are also available. Instead it appears that if you do not have a personal financial stake involved, they will all be referred to as pieces of junk that will not work for anyone cooking anything anywhere.

I apologize for the rude tone of this post, but after reading several pages of archived threads on this matter, that is exactly what I have found.

At first I thought there was something being lost in translation, but I gues that was not it either.

Have you ever heard the saying "You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar"? Some people here (me Especially) have absolutely no intention of bringing in oven building materials and builders from Italy to have an oven constructed at their location. By helping some of us weed through the several other oven manufacturers available, and helping us choose another manufacturers oven instead of just saying bad things about them. you may gain our trust a little more, and when it comes time to expand our operation, or open a 2nd location we would look to you for that 2nd oven because of your help in choosing a first oven that may or may not be from the company that you represent.
If you do not have personal experience with other brands of ovens some may ask about, just say so, but offer an unbiased breakdown of why you feel it will not work, or why it is a fuel hog, or why the temps are difficult to manage.
A skinny cook is not to be trusted!

Offline Mo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 210
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #148 on: March 03, 2010, 12:54:32 PM »
Is catching the pizza on fire part of the training or is that something he came up with on his own? Seriously, though, quite a little fire in that little oven. Looked to be right at 60 seconds for that pie.

Also impressive was the 8 pizze in under five minutes guy, flying solo. My guy George and I are working on our youtube answer to that one...


Mo.


Offline David

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 966
  • What’s So Funny ‘Bout Pizza Love and Understanding
Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #149 on: March 03, 2010, 01:47:29 PM »
Sadly IMO it seems that there is too much attention spent on how fast / many pizzas you can cook at one time,than there is regarding how the toppings are applied and whether or not the pizza is cooked properly.The final quality is surely more important than the volume/speed.I understand that time is money as is the need to turn tables,but quality and consistency should be paramount I believe.From my observations any time I've seen more than three at a time in a sufficiently hot oven,the outcome has often been compromised,and I'm not talking about places that simply do Margherita's and Marinara's.When you have an oven full of pizzas that can range from a Capricciosa or Calzone on down it can be a minefield,and requires total focus.Yes there are very skilled and capable fornaio out there,but I just think it is somewhat misleading to believe that you can do the volumes mentioned here and expect a high level of consistency, particularly without a good,focused, well trained team.Yes the Neapolitans have been doing this for Decades,but outside of there and on these shores it's relatively new.If you are doing hundreds a day with one oven be grateful.If you are doing hundreds an hour,pay your guys a decent wage,hope they never go sick and keep saying your prayers at night .
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market


 

pizzapan