cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?

[andreguidon]

found some videos of franco manca on youtube... the pizzas look very good !!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOHRC63WCmQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOHRC63WCmQ</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwGnGSQENK8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwGnGSQENK8</a>

[David]

PFT posted this link elsewhere and no one has commented on it:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-91RvTXHm_E&amp;feature=PlayList&amp;p=4257558839BBBD51&amp;index=2" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-91RvTXHm_E&amp;feature=PlayList&amp;p=4257558839BBBD51&amp;index=2</a>

He mention Marco and raises some  points regarding Neapolitan ovens.

[Infoodel]

Can't believe no-one mentioned this:
making pizza (at Franco Manca)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6Y-uSeYaQQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6Y-uSeYaQQ</a>

[pizzanapoletana]

I do not haver access to media streeming until later today, so can someone confirm or tell me more on the following, so I can reply with accurate information:

1) What are the two videos that Andre posted shows?

2) David's links: Does it refer to a video of PF Taylor giving a presentation? Does he mention me with regards to Neapolitan emigrants and does it mention Ovens in Humid environment?(many inaccuracy.... so if it is the case I will clarify )

3) The video by infodel: Is it a tall guy with the bear and a bandana on the head? IF so that is Rafa, now a very good Fornaio and the video was not shot off service....... He is not the pizzamaker even though is now learning that aspect as well...

Thanks

[andreguidon]

Hi Marco, the videos ive posted are just customers eating pizza....

PFTs video is the presentation one yes...

infodeel posted exactly the video you mentioned, is Rafa brazilian ??

[Infoodel]

.

[pizzanapoletana]

Hi Marco, the videos ive posted are just customers eating pizza....

PFTs video is the presentation one yes...

infodeel posted exactly the video you mentioned, is Rafa brazilian ??

Thanks,

Then :

1- No comment as I have not seen it before.

2- I respect the passion of PFt and the leap he took in opening a pizzeria and I thank him for the mention but he would have been better to say from who and where he learned the majority of stuff (as he confirmed in writing a while ago) and not only on pizzaioli emigration... More importantly the quote on humidity could not have been worst: We once exchanged PMs because he wanted to buy an authentic Neapolitan oven for his garden and I told him it was not ideal because of the humidity and the rain. These are professional ovens designed for indoor use in pizzerias. Apparently there is a Neapolitan oven in Tampa and they operate with no problem inside a pizzeria . What is more, the brother of the owner of Donna Margherita in London -UK was in Tampa helping opening up that place at the time and confirmed how better our ovens at Donna Margherita is ;-). I appreciate people need to build up marketing stories but I believe they also need to keep it real.... In any case the good thing is that there is someone else offering artisans pizza against the chain in USA.

3-Rafa is Brazilian and he learned very well as a Fornaio.. To be honest the best Fornai I have ever seen or taught outside Naples were one Argentinian and the other is Rafa. No problem in posting it Infodel, just clarifying to avoid as happened early on in this post and others, then people may start assessing the speed, the quality etc...

[GotRocks]

Marco, I was really hoping that you would be able to offer some unbiased information in relation to other brands of commercial WFO's that are also available. Instead it appears that if you do not have a personal financial stake involved, they will all be referred to as pieces of junk that will not work for anyone cooking anything anywhere.

I apologize for the rude tone of this post, but after reading several pages of archived threads on this matter, that is exactly what I have found.

At first I thought there was something being lost in translation, but I gues that was not it either.

Have you ever heard the saying "You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar"? Some people here (me Especially) have absolutely no intention of bringing in oven building materials and builders from Italy to have an oven constructed at their location. By helping some of us weed through the several other oven manufacturers available, and helping us choose another manufacturers oven instead of just saying bad things about them. you may gain our trust a little more, and when it comes time to expand our operation, or open a 2nd location we would look to you for that 2nd oven because of your help in choosing a first oven that may or may not be from the company that you represent.
If you do not have personal experience with other brands of ovens some may ask about, just say so, but offer an unbiased breakdown of why you feel it will not work, or why it is a fuel hog, or why the temps are difficult to manage.

[Mo]

Is catching the pizza on fire part of the training or is that something he came up with on his own? Seriously, though, quite a little fire in that little oven. Looked to be right at 60 seconds for that pie.

Also impressive was the 8 pizze in under five minutes guy, flying solo. My guy George and I are working on our youtube answer to that one...


Mo.

[David]

Sadly IMO it seems that there is too much attention spent on how fast / many pizzas you can cook at one time,than there is regarding how the toppings are applied and whether or not the pizza is cooked properly.The final quality is surely more important than the volume/speed.I understand that time is money as is the need to turn tables,but quality and consistency should be paramount I believe.From my observations any time I've seen more than three at a time in a sufficiently hot oven,the outcome has often been compromised,and I'm not talking about places that simply do Margherita's and Marinara's.When you have an oven full of pizzas that can range from a Capricciosa or Calzone on down it can be a minefield,and requires total focus.Yes there are very skilled and capable fornaio out there,but I just think it is somewhat misleading to believe that you can do the volumes mentioned here and expect a high level of consistency, particularly without a good,focused, well trained team.Yes the Neapolitans have been doing this for Decades,but outside of there and on these shores it's relatively new.If you are doing hundreds a day with one oven be grateful.If you are doing hundreds an hour,pay your guys a decent wage,hope they never go sick and keep saying your prayers at night .

[pizzanapoletana]

Mo,

That video was shot a while ago, and as you may know the fire is caused when the excessive oil from the pizza may drop on the hot oven floor.

Gotrocks,


Before, even ever getting involved with any manufacturer of oven I already stated that a Neapolitan oven is a MUST for certain products. You just turned up and start accusing me of unbiased partying.. But I actually got involved with Forno Napoletano because I wanted the best oven for my clients. Any fees that I earn from sales of ovens are still below to my income as consultant by a long shoot... I look for quality cooking and an oven that can help the client doing his job and output good quality products and HAVE NOT found a prefab one being able to do that, and I do have experience with many of the brands mentioned on this forum, even an American one I tried installed in an house in PA. Some physics question for you: if you over feed air to a fire, does it burn more fuel (think of the turbo in cars)? As heat goes up, does a higher dome means that the heath is further up from the floor? if you need contact heats does a larger heated mass with better heating retaining properties help you maintain heat over time? Do you want the best possible refractory element like used in the metal or glass industry for a pizza oven or do you want a materials that has some of the same quality but additionally has others that a pure refractory and reflectively insulated materials lacks?

I have also posted info on people that have made that choice rather then me telling them, and they have openly compared Neapolitan vs not Neapolitan, so NO, I cannot help you finding a prefab oven that just in case would be suitable for Pizza Napoletana in the future, because it does not exist. If you want to do another product then for 2-3 minutes pies and above, people like MO or other have posted their experience that can probably help you. From my point of view, a prefab has also a shorter life issue that is covered by the cheap cost I guess.

David,

Agreed! But a good fornaio should also know that a capricciosa is positioned in a part of the oven and a margherita and marinara somewhere else

[David]

Agreed! But a good fornaio should also know that a capricciosa is positioned in a part of the oven and a margherita and marinara somewhere else

Even a novice......

[TXCraig1]

Marco,

What is the typical diameter and dome height of a Forno Napoletano oven?

Craig

[Mo]

Sadly IMO it seems that there is too much attention spent on how fast / many pizzas you can cook at one time,than there is regarding how the toppings are applied and whether or not the pizza is cooked properly.The final quality is surely more important than the volume/speed.I understand that time is money as is the need to turn tables,but quality and consistency should be paramount I believe.From my observations any time I've seen more than three at a time in a sufficiently hot oven,the outcome has often been compromised,and I'm not talking about places that simply do Margherita's and Marinara's.When you have an oven full of pizzas that can range from a Capricciosa or Calzone on down it can be a minefield,and requires total focus.Yes there are very skilled and capable fornaio out there,but I just think it is somewhat misleading to believe that you can do the volumes mentioned here and expect a high level of consistency, particularly without a good,focused, well trained team.Yes the Neapolitans have been doing this for Decades,but outside of there and on these shores it's relatively new.If you are doing hundreds a day with one oven be grateful.If you are doing hundreds an hour,pay your guys a decent wage,hope they never go sick and keep saying your prayers at night .

A discussion of consistency/quality vs. speed began at reply #124....

[Mo]

Mo,

That video was shot a while ago, and as you may know the fire is caused when the excessive oil from the pizza may drop on the hot oven floor.

No doubt, but it's still funny cos I think that fire stayed with him a bit longer than he would have liked....

[pizzanapoletana]

Marco,

What is the typical diameter and dome height of a Forno Napoletano oven?

Craig

the diameter have been discussed. the height is somthing that master builder do not discuss but is visible lower then any prefab out there.

[Mo]

the height is somthing that master builder do not discuss but is visible lower then any prefab out there.

Is that what you tell prospective clients when they are asking for technical data on the ovens you rep? So, if somebody says "I looked at xyz brand and it is 16" from the centre of the floor to the dome, how high is the dome of your oven?" do you say "the master builder does not reveal that information"? Or do you give them a range, say, "higher than 11 inches but lower than 13"? Is it acceptable to pantomime the measurement? Charades?

I mean, is it really some kind of secret? It's a measurement, quantifiable, verifiable, observable data, not voodoo. 

I'm sorry but I just don't get why you feel the need to wrap these things in some air of mystery like it's the location of the Lost City of Atlantis...

[shango]

It's called intellectual property, or sometimes, IP.  If you think it doesn't have value, try making the sequel to James Cameron's Avatar without his permission.

It really doesn't matter to me, but if you don't like the way somebody does business, or the fact that they won't share information with you, don't deal with them. 

Hasn't this thread pretty much run it's course? 

[Mo]

It's called intellectual property, or sometimes, IP.  If you think it doesn't have value, try making the sequel to James Cameron's Avatar without his permission.

It really doesn't matter to me, but if you don't like the way somebody does business, or the fact that they won't share information with you, don't deal with them. 

Hasn't this thread pretty much run it's course? 

Just about every manufacturer of any product has something called a spec sheet or cut sheet listing basic dimensions of their equipment. Now, if someone starts producing a product that is identical to one already being produced, then enter the claim to rights of IP, so forth. My question concerns how a potential consumer can become informed of the relative merits of different equipment and was posed to the one that is representing a manufacturer on this thread. I'm sure he can either address or ignore the question as he wishes...

[shuboyje]

Does a painter give you specs on a painting? A sculptor on their statue?  What you seem to be missing in this entire thread is that these ovens are works of art created by craftsmen.  A perfect mixture of form and function that have been designed over hundreds of years of use.  On top of that Marco has already answered many of these questions with generalized answers in the past and if you would take the time to read every relevant post he has made like some of us have you would see that.