Author Topic: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?  (Read 56108 times)

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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #150 on: March 03, 2010, 01:51:10 PM »
Mo,

That video was shot a while ago, and as you may know the fire is caused when the excessive oil from the pizza may drop on the hot oven floor.

Gotrocks,


Before, even ever getting involved with any manufacturer of oven I already stated that a Neapolitan oven is a MUST for certain products. You just turned up and start accusing me of unbiased partying.. But I actually got involved with Forno Napoletano because I wanted the best oven for my clients. Any fees that I earn from sales of ovens are still below to my income as consultant by a long shoot... I look for quality cooking and an oven that can help the client doing his job and output good quality products and HAVE NOT found a prefab one being able to do that, and I do have experience with many of the brands mentioned on this forum, even an American one I tried installed in an house in PA. Some physics question for you: if you over feed air to a fire, does it burn more fuel (think of the turbo in cars)? As heat goes up, does a higher dome means that the heath is further up from the floor? if you need contact heats does a larger heated mass with better heating retaining properties help you maintain heat over time? Do you want the best possible refractory element like used in the metal or glass industry for a pizza oven or do you want a materials that has some of the same quality but additionally has others that a pure refractory and reflectively insulated materials lacks????

I have also posted info on people that have made that choice rather then me telling them, and they have openly compared Neapolitan vs not Neapolitan, so NO, I cannot help you finding a prefab oven that just in case would be suitable for Pizza Napoletana in the future, because it does not exist. If you want to do another product then for 2-3 minutes pies and above, people like MO or other have posted their experience that can probably help you. From my point of view, a prefab has also a shorter life issue that is covered by the cheap cost I guess.

David,

Agreed! But a good fornaio should also know that a capricciosa is positioned in a part of the oven and a margherita and marinara somewhere else


Offline David

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #151 on: March 03, 2010, 01:58:06 PM »


Agreed! But a good fornaio should also know that a capricciosa is positioned in a part of the oven and a margherita and marinara somewhere else


Even a novice...... ;)
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #152 on: March 03, 2010, 02:20:51 PM »
Marco,

What is the typical diameter and dome height of a Forno Napoletano oven?

Craig
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Offline Mo

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #153 on: March 03, 2010, 02:44:58 PM »
Sadly IMO it seems that there is too much attention spent on how fast / many pizzas you can cook at one time,than there is regarding how the toppings are applied and whether or not the pizza is cooked properly.The final quality is surely more important than the volume/speed.I understand that time is money as is the need to turn tables,but quality and consistency should be paramount I believe.From my observations any time I've seen more than three at a time in a sufficiently hot oven,the outcome has often been compromised,and I'm not talking about places that simply do Margherita's and Marinara's.When you have an oven full of pizzas that can range from a Capricciosa or Calzone on down it can be a minefield,and requires total focus.Yes there are very skilled and capable fornaio out there,but I just think it is somewhat misleading to believe that you can do the volumes mentioned here and expect a high level of consistency, particularly without a good,focused, well trained team.Yes the Neapolitans have been doing this for Decades,but outside of there and on these shores it's relatively new.If you are doing hundreds a day with one oven be grateful.If you are doing hundreds an hour,pay your guys a decent wage,hope they never go sick and keep saying your prayers at night .

A discussion of consistency/quality vs. speed began at reply #124....

Offline Mo

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #154 on: March 03, 2010, 02:47:07 PM »
Mo,

That video was shot a while ago, and as you may know the fire is caused when the excessive oil from the pizza may drop on the hot oven floor.

No doubt, but it's still funny cos I think that fire stayed with him a bit longer than he would have liked....

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #155 on: March 03, 2010, 03:11:49 PM »
Marco,

What is the typical diameter and dome height of a Forno Napoletano oven?

Craig

the diameter have been discussed. the height is somthing that master builder do not discuss but is visible lower then any prefab out there.

Offline Mo

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #156 on: March 03, 2010, 05:01:31 PM »
the height is somthing that master builder do not discuss but is visible lower then any prefab out there.

Is that what you tell prospective clients when they are asking for technical data on the ovens you rep? So, if somebody says "I looked at xyz brand and it is 16" from the centre of the floor to the dome, how high is the dome of your oven?" do you say "the master builder does not reveal that information"? Or do you give them a range, say, "higher than 11 inches but lower than 13"? Is it acceptable to pantomime the measurement? Charades?

I mean, is it really some kind of secret? It's a measurement, quantifiable, verifiable, observable data, not voodoo. 

I'm sorry but I just don't get why you feel the need to wrap these things in some air of mystery like it's the location of the Lost City of Atlantis...


Offline shango

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #157 on: March 03, 2010, 06:42:56 PM »
It's called intellectual property, or sometimes, IP.  If you think it doesn't have value, try making the sequel to James Cameron's Avatar without his permission.

It really doesn't matter to me, but if you don't like the way somebody does business, or the fact that they won't share information with you, don't deal with them. 

Hasn't this thread pretty much run it's course? 
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline Mo

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #158 on: March 03, 2010, 07:21:52 PM »
It's called intellectual property, or sometimes, IP.  If you think it doesn't have value, try making the sequel to James Cameron's Avatar without his permission.

It really doesn't matter to me, but if you don't like the way somebody does business, or the fact that they won't share information with you, don't deal with them. 

Hasn't this thread pretty much run it's course? 

Just about every manufacturer of any product has something called a spec sheet or cut sheet listing basic dimensions of their equipment. Now, if someone starts producing a product that is identical to one already being produced, then enter the claim to rights of IP, so forth. My question concerns how a potential consumer can become informed of the relative merits of different equipment and was posed to the one that is representing a manufacturer on this thread. I'm sure he can either address or ignore the question as he wishes...


Offline shuboyje

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #159 on: March 03, 2010, 10:42:46 PM »
Does a painter give you specs on a painting? A sculptor on their statue?  What you seem to be missing in this entire thread is that these ovens are works of art created by craftsmen.  A perfect mixture of form and function that have been designed over hundreds of years of use.  On top of that Marco has already answered many of these questions with generalized answers in the past and if you would take the time to read every relevant post he has made like some of us have you would see that.
-Jeff

Offline Mo

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #160 on: March 04, 2010, 12:02:32 AM »
Does a painter give you specs on a painting? A sculptor on their statue?  What you seem to be missing in this entire thread is that these ovens are works of art created by craftsmen.  A perfect mixture of form and function that have been designed over hundreds of years of use.  On top of that Marco has already answered many of these questions with generalized answers in the past and if you would take the time to read every relevant post he has made like some of us have you would see that.

With all due respect, nobody on this site thinks twice about asking detailed questions about specifics on everything from how they make their dough to where they get their checkered tablecloths. Why is this any different? This thread is in the Shop Talk section, dealing, presumably, with issues relating to operating a pizza making business. So far, I think the questions posed by myself and others are within the reasonable range of subject matter.

To be clear, I am not the one asking about the specific dimensions, rather I am merely scratching my virtual head in bewilderment at the answers given to questions asked by others...This forum is for discussion, is it not?

Perhaps Shango is right. This thread may be approaching rampant silliness...


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #161 on: March 04, 2010, 04:52:09 AM »
Hopefully this will be my last post in this particular thread. We can be sarcastic, try to climb mirrors etc, so the round up for me is:

A Neapolitan oven is an artisan products, not a factory made one and does not have a manufacturer but an artisan (I may have myself use the wrong definition in the past, apologies). Neapolitan pizza makers have always gone back to their artisan for a new oven, a floor replacement, a change of location or the opening of a new branch. Now that Pizza Napoletana is being promoted in a more original form around the world, we have people with different background approaching this product and without the experiences passed on by an old master, have difficulties understanding why certain choices have always been made. The three floor dimension have been mentioned over many times, of 105, 120 and 130 cm approximately (the floor are hand made in forms measured in Neapolitan palms and therefore the actual sizes have tolerances of few cm…_. Height, shape of dome (more or less curved), and specific construction tricks are not disclosed and are irrelevant for our traditional clients. The spec sheet that is sent to client have what we believe are relevant information for the installation of the oven. Why? Because the buyer of a Neapolitan oven want that product and does not need to compare it to a prefab. You would then say (as you are sceptical and producing “fantastic” pizza with your prefab one), how do I know that the differences benefit me? Simple! By investigating the actual products (pizza) that comes out of either oven. What do you investigate if you are not using the oven yourself? By observing the pizza you can see the amount of heat it received from the top and from the bottom, the cooking time, and by observing the people work, how much intervention they had to do. More importantly by talking to people that unfortunately had gone the prefab or other brick built way, before having to demolish it and replace. They can give the more convincing answers IMO as they have wasted the money and can tell others to avoid doing so. Now that information is already out there.

This thread was asking about Neapolitan ovens, and I have posted some clarifications. If those are not good enough for you or others, unfortunately there is no much more I can do, as I know  can never convince a sceptical that is content with a different output. IMO; there are people that want to exploit the property of an authentic oven to turn out outstanding products and there are others, unfortunately many around the world, that use “Wood Fired” as a marketing ploy, often associating it with some kind of messages that re-calls Naples and/or Neapolitan pizza.

There are electric ovens that can output a 2.30 – 3.00 minutes pizza and are easier to manage that wood fired ovens if someone want to go that route

Offline seerad

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #162 on: March 04, 2010, 09:38:18 AM »
I have followed this thread and read through what each person says.  

I completely understand what Marco is saying.  For a traditional neapolitan pizza, it is necessary for the oven to be built and constructed at the location it is to be used by an artisan, because let's face it, you can't run the mona lisa through a manufacturing plant, it's about the brush strokes that went into making it.

I do however have an issue.  I know that Tony Gemignani is currently the only person to win both baking and acrobatic titles at Italy's World Pizza Championships as well as holding numerous titles of World Pizza Champion in the Neapolitan pizza held in Naples, as well as now being the President of the World Pizza Championship, Inc.  He is also the first master instructor in the United States having become a certified master at the Scuola Italiana Pizzaioli.

It sounds like he knows something about pizza, specifically Neapolitan Pizza as he does run the only pizza school in the united states.
He exclusively uses Cirigliano Forni wood-fired pizza ovens in his restaurants and in the school he founded for his wood-fired line.
You can learn more at internationalschoolofpizza.com/about.php

Again, I'm sure that Marco knows what he's talking about, but perhaps some of the prefabs are made by artisans passing along tradition over 3 generations (Cirigiliano Forni) I can't speak for any other pizza oven brands out there as these are the ovens that we use and are familiar with.
But it would seem as though Tony might need to have a say in this.

If it's good enough for Tony, it's good enough for me.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #163 on: March 04, 2010, 10:07:57 AM »
I have followed this thread and read through what each person says.  

I completely understand what Marco is saying.  For a traditional neapolitan pizza, it is necessary for the oven to be built and constructed at the location it is to be used by an artisan, because let's face it, you can't run the mona lisa through a manufacturing plant, it's about the brush strokes that went into making it.

I do however have an issue.  I know that Tony Gemignani is currently the only person to win both baking and acrobatic titles at Italy's World Pizza Championships as well as holding numerous titles of World Pizza Champion in the Neapolitan pizza held in Naples, as well as now being the President of the World Pizza Championship, Inc.  He is also the first master instructor in the United States having become a certified master at the Scuola Italiana Pizzaioli.

It sounds like he knows something about pizza, specifically Neapolitan Pizza as he does run the only pizza school in the united states.
He exclusively uses Cirigliano Forni wood-fired pizza ovens in his restaurants and in the school he founded for his wood-fired line.
You can learn more at internationalschoolofpizza.com/about.php

Again, I'm sure that Marco knows what he's talking about, but perhaps some of the prefabs are made by artisans passing along tradition over 3 generations (Cirigiliano Forni) I can't speak for any other pizza oven brands out there as these are the ovens that we use and are familiar with.
But it would seem as though Tony might need to have a say in this.

If it's good enough for Tony, it's good enough for me.


All due respect to third parties but:

The competitions on neapolitan pizza, titlets etc are a whole other subjects. (edit for other posts).. I have heard feedback from sponsors and organisers of those events that made be re-evaluate my desire to compete for publicity to be honest. I personally partecipated once to a competition as I had been invited by the organiser. I did my dough to be ready at 13.00 but was only called at 16.30. It was 40 degree celsius and we were in an outside tent were there was no means of protecting the temperature and my dough was ruined,  it then stuck onto the peel and was also deformed, it came up a terrible pizza, which I would have judged last having seen the others... I was still ranked in the midlle top ....

Back to the subjects of ovens, there is a video of Tony cooking on his oven, for all to judge the elements I mentioned earlier and the bottom line is that in Naples (CITY) no-one use those ovens, no one.

For any other products (I mean pizza), I am sure Tony is more then qualified and experienced then I can possibly be.

Ciao

Offline andreguidon

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #164 on: March 04, 2010, 11:35:12 AM »
for sure that dough ball is over 250g... look more like 400g.....


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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #165 on: March 04, 2010, 12:46:42 PM »
Quote
Does a painter give you specs on a painting? A sculptor on their statue?  What you seem to be missing in this entire thread is that these ovens are works of art created by craftsmen.  A perfect mixture of form and function that have been designed over hundreds of years of use.

Quote
For a traditional neapolitan pizza, it is necessary for the oven to be built and constructed at the location it is to be used by an artisan, because let's face it, you can't run the mona lisa through a manufacturing plant, it's about the brush strokes that went into making it.

It's an oven not the Venus de Milo. If it performs well and bakes to spec, then great but please enough with the over-romanticized BS.  ::)

You think Naples pizzaiolos and fornai give a %$# about how 'artisanal' the oven is? No, I'm pretty sure they want the best tool to do a demanding job. Fair play to Marco, and other contributors on this thread for explaining what that involves.

Offline seerad

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #166 on: March 04, 2010, 01:36:13 PM »
Quote
It's an oven not the Venus de Milo. If it performs well and bakes to spec, then great but please enough with the over-romanticized BS. 

You think Naples pizzaiolos and fornai give a %$#& about how 'artisanal' the oven is? No, I'm pretty sure they want the best tool to do a demanding job. Fair play to Marco, and other contributors on this thread for explaining what that involves.

I was more or less utilizing sarcasm in my description.  I agree with what you are saying.


Offline David

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #167 on: March 04, 2010, 03:57:37 PM »
It sounds like he knows something about pizza, specifically Neapolitan Pizza as he does run the only pizza school in the united states.

That is not so.There are a number of options open to people who wish to learn.
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Offline shango

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #168 on: March 04, 2010, 04:32:56 PM »
Looking at the dough stretching technique, and the oven, I would think that there are actually much better options.. No offense Tony.
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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #169 on: March 05, 2010, 11:45:06 PM »

2- I respect the passion of PFt and the leap he took in opening a pizzeria and I thank him for the mention but he would have been better to say from who and where he learned the majority of stuff (as he confirmed in writing a while ago) and not only on pizzaioli emigration... More importantly the quote on humidity could not have been worst: We once exchanged PMs because he wanted to buy an authentic Neapolitan oven for his garden and I told him it was not ideal because of the humidity and the rain. These are professional ovens designed for indoor use in pizzerias. Apparently there is a Neapolitan oven in Tampa and they operate with no problem inside a pizzeria . What is more, the brother of the owner of Donna Margherita in London -UK was in Tampa helping opening up that place at the time and confirmed how better our ovens at Donna Margherita is ;-). I appreciate people need to build up marketing stories but I believe they also need to keep it real.... In any case the good thing is that there is someone else offering artisans pizza against the chain in USA.

The oven that is in Tampa is at Pizzaiolo Bavaro and it is a Stefano Ferrara mobile oven. Here is a video of his pizzeria. . I have been talking to the owner Dan Bavaro and he is a really nice guy.

Offline Matthew

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #170 on: March 06, 2010, 06:53:40 AM »
The oven that is in Tampa is at Pizzaiolo Bavaro and it is a Stefano Ferrara mobile oven. Here is a video of his pizzeria. . I have been talking to the owner Dan Bavaro and he is a really nice guy.

Dan is related to Stefano, If my memory serves me correctly, Stefano is his uncle.

Matt

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #171 on: March 06, 2010, 09:06:15 AM »
That's cool he said he helped them with sales in the US so maybe you are right.

Offline David

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #172 on: March 23, 2010, 02:00:35 PM »
http://pupatella.blogspot.com/

"So, I went to the county inspection  office yesterday to see what they think about our construction plans.  Turns out, it is a big deal to have an Italian wood-fired oven installed.  They want me to pay $4,500 to have it inspected by UL (Underwriters Labs).  Ouch!  That oven ends up costing us about $15,000 without installation.  It's a lot, but we don't want to buy any other one, because Forno Napoletano ovens bake absolutely the best pizzas, even in Naples. They have a special low-dome construction and excellent heat insulation. "
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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #173 on: April 27, 2010, 11:10:32 AM »
Just found this really cool.

Offline gabaghool

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Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
« Reply #174 on: January 06, 2012, 06:40:48 PM »
My god........
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 09:51:16 AM by gabaghool »


 

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