Author Topic: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...  (Read 3729 times)

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Offline canadave

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Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« on: February 15, 2005, 12:29:11 PM »
Hi folks,

Well, my malt powder finally arrived in the mail from my mom back home.  For some reason though, she thought I was making malteds, so she bought me three containers of the stuff (!)

I see the expiration date is a year away on these.  There's no way I'll go through three of these in a year.  My question: can I prolong the shelf life of the spare ones I'm not using, by refrigerating them or freezing them?  What would either technique do to the malt powder?

I can't wait to try this stuff (and take pics)!

Thanks,
Dave


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2005, 01:03:47 PM »
Dave,
Glad to hear you finally got your delivery. The stuff is so cheap I'm not sure I would do anything but make plenty of pizza and wash them down with a malted. You would be the most popular guy in the neighborhood.
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Offline canadave

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2005, 01:19:05 PM »
hehe...it's not so much the expense that's the problem....it's just the hassle.  I can't buy the stuff up here in Canada, and it took me a month to get these three containers from my folks in the mail, and the mail bag they came in was ripped open and mangled.  Not to mention that I'd rather not ask my mom to go buy me malt powder every year ;)  So if I could somehow hoard and preserve these things and extend their shelf life, I think I'd like to do that.....

Dave


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2005, 02:07:59 PM »
Dave,
I utilize the vanilla malt by substituting it for sugar. How are you planning on incorporating it?
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Offline canadave

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2005, 02:12:31 PM »
I was planning on just adding in a teaspoon in addition to everything else....I was going to have a look at your recipe where you originally posted your use of the malt powder, and then just mimic what you did :)

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2005, 02:24:30 PM »
Dave,
I have had great success lately using a tablespoon of vanilla malt in a finshed dough ball weight of about 40 ounces. I have completely stopped using sugar. So I'll be interested in your experience.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 07:27:00 PM by pftaylor »
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Offline canadave

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2005, 02:51:25 PM »
Peter,

That sounds like you've changed your recipe slightly from your original one you posted then, am I correct?  If so, would you mind posting your current recipe? :)

Dave

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2005, 03:46:01 PM »
Dave,
I think you are referring to my family recipe with AP flour. I have since moved on to using a KASL based recipe but have still kept the malt. My family prefers it to sugar and so do I. Lehmann is the Grandfather for the recipe, Pete-zza is the Father, and I am the aspiring son who has made further tweaks all in the spirit of trying to duplicate a home version of Patsy's. Here are the ingredients:

5 cups KASL (22.5oz)
1 t OO
1 T Sicilian Sea Salt
1 3/4 cups water + 1 T
1 t IDY (as a booster)
1 T Vanilla Malt
1/2 cup Caputo based Biga

Produces 3 dough balls of 12.5 oz with 5 oz or so left over. As I have scaled down my desired dough ball size for a 15" - 16" pizza I have yet to scale down my ingredients. At this point everything is turning out so good I'm afraid to change the ingredients downward to remove any extra dough.

Preparation steps:
Mix water, salt and malt with flour (in that order) for one minute on stir using stand mixer (Kitchen Aid Artisan) with hook attachment. Add yeast and biga, mix on 2 for 2 minutes. Add OO and mix for 5 minutes on 3. Check for proper amount of tackiness. The trick at this stage is to determine if you can get to the right level of tackiness without adding water or flour. The recipe works out perfectly for me without any water or flour adjustments but If you think it's just too moist add flour, if too dry add water. Either way, mix dough on 3 until consistently tacky not sticky, remove from mixer and hand knead into a ball on lightly floured surface.

Get out your thermometer and check temperature. 80 - 85 degrees is perfect. If below 80 degrees use warmer water next time, if above 85 degrees use colder water next time. Cut dough into 3 equal pieces, form into balls, wipe lightly with OO, drop into plastic bread bag, twist end closed and tuck it under dough ball. Place in fridge to ferment for 1-2 days.

Remove from fridge and place on counter to warm, heat oven/grill to highest temp for at least an hour, put formed skin of 15" - 16" on peel, add favorite sauce, cheese, spices. Peel the dressed skin onto preheated stone in the oven/grill and bake until the crust is lightly charred and crispy.

That's it. Good luck.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 07:36:38 PM by pftaylor »
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Offline friz78

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2005, 12:49:22 PM »
PFT,
Can you give us some detailed instruction on exactly how to make your "biga"?
Friz

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2005, 02:10:17 PM »
Friz,
While I'm not an expert here goes:

Combine 1 cup of warm water, 1/8th teaspoon of IDY with 8 ounces of Caputo 00 flour in a tall plastic spagetti container. Then I placed the open container on the black grill cover for my TEC grill located on my screened-in pool deck. After a few hours the container was over 3/4th full of a heartily growing batter-like mixture with lots of bubbles (biga).

I then refreshed only the water and flour on a daily basis for a week by throwing out half the biga and adding a 1/4 cup of water and 1/2 cup of Caputo 00 flour. I stirred the biga several times a day with a long handled spoon.

After a week of growing a sour smelling batter, I put the mixture in the fridge after the last refresh. I covered the top of the container with a paper towel held in place with a rubberband. Then I refreshed the mixture a week later and then refreshed the next week as well.

When I made my first pizza with the mixture last week, I took it out of the fridge the morning of making the pizza, allowed it to warm for a few hours, and refreshed it using the above procedure.
I then added 1/2 cup biga to my normal pizza recipe and then placed it back in the fridge for use next time.
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www.wood-firedpizza.com


Offline friz78

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2005, 07:04:53 PM »
Wow that sounds very involved.  Thanks for the feedback.  Pete, can you supply us with some of your chemistry/engineering/mathematical analysis for this phenomenon?  Is this really what they do at Patsy's to make their pizza?  For that matter, who cares, I'd rather have a pizza that looks like PFT's rather than a Patsy's anyway!!   ;D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2005, 10:17:30 PM »
Friz,

Basically what I know about poolishes, bigas, levains, etc., I summarized recently at Reply #15, at http://forum.pizzamaking.com/index.php?topic=878.0.

But what pftaylor is doing to build up and strengthen his biga is the standard approach recommended and used by most sourdough aficianados. Usually the decision that one has to make when contemplating a poolish is whether it will use natural yeasts or commercial yeast. Once that decision is made, the poolish has to be periodically replenished, by discarding part of the poolish and adding fresh flour and water. This is done repeatedly to strengthen the poolish. Otherwise, the leavening power of the poolish will be weak (insufficient yeast growth and reproduction) and it will be difficult to produce a good dough with good rising qualities. If the replenishment is not done regularly, the poolish will weaken as the yeast uses up all the natural sugars in the flour. It can be rejuvenated thereafter up to a point (if the yeast hasn't been allowed to die through neglect), by using the same replenshment techniques, but more replenishment sequences are required.

Most often, the poolish will contain only flour, water and yeast (natural or commercial), and no salt, which would impair yeast performance, especially if the poolish is just getting started and is based on natural yeasts. But many people are fond of tossing all kinds of things into their starters, as you will note if you do a Google search on the subject.

As for what Patsy's does, Jeff Verasano reported in a recent posting that he believes that Patsy's is using a piece of old dough (chef) for leavening the dough for the next production. This is a technique commonly used by bakers in France. I suspect that Patsy's uses commercial yeast for the basic dough, as apparently Jeff does, and supplements it with the poolish. I understand that Una Pizza in NYC also uses old dough, except in their case they are apparently using a chef in the form of a levain, which is simply a poolish based on natural yeast. It's conceivable that Una Pizza uses only the levain and no commercial yeast whatsoever, just as is done by many artisan sourdough bread bakers, but this is only speculation on my part. The principal objective in using poolishes, of course, is to get improved crust flavor through all the by-products of fermentation (alcohol, acids, etc.). And it's one of the best ways of getting it.

Tonight I spent some time trying to calculate the baker's percents for jftaylor's recipe as recited above in this thread. Rather than posting the calculations here, I will do so at the Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza thread once I have finished the calculations.

Peter


Offline canadave

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2005, 08:30:44 PM »
Sorry to take this thread back a bit...I was just hoping someone might be able to tell me if I can make my malt powder last longer than the year listed as its expiration date?  Would refrigerating it or freezing it help?  Would such methods do bad things to the powder?

Dave

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2005, 10:20:27 AM »
Dave,

I only have one bottle of the Carnation Original Malted Milk powder but I also wondered about its life span. When I looked at the ingredient list on the bottle (wheat flour and malted barley extracts, dry milk, lecithin, salt and sodium bicarbonate), I couldn't see any reason why the powder couldn't be frozen until ready for use. I did see a date on the bottom of the bottle, 27July2005, and a small note on the bottle indicating that that date is the "Best if used by" date.  When I also saw an 800 number on the bottle, I decided to call Nestle and talk to a customer service representative.

I was told by the rep that the shelf life of the Carnation Original powder is 15 months so long as the bottle remains unopened. Once opened, it should not be refrigerated but rather kept in a cool, dry place, like a pantry. The rep added that the quality of the powder will deteriorate with time once the bottle is opened and that is why the "Best if used by" date is provided on the bottle. When I asked about freezing the powder, I was told that freezing was not recommended. When I asked why, she expressed concern about moisture affecting the product. When I told her that the plan was to freeze unopened bottles, she replied that Nestle (Carnation) simply has never done freezing tests on the product and, hence, was reluctant to recommend it. I have my doubts about Carnation never having frozen the product, and can understand why it would never recommend freezing. They want to move volume, not reduce it.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be inclined to freeze the unused bottles of the powder (unopened) until you are ready to use them. Then, maybe you can call Carnation and tell them that the Canadave Testing Laboratory has tested freezing of their product and it will tolerate/not tolerate freezing.

Peter


Offline Steve

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Re: Finally! malt powder arrived. I've got a Q...
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2005, 12:15:28 PM »
I'm still using my bottle and it's a year past its expiration date. It tastes fine.
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