Author Topic: Mixer and Dough Type  (Read 4109 times)

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Offline s00da

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Mixer and Dough Type
« on: August 28, 2009, 04:33:00 AM »
I'm planning a mixer upgrade and trying to set a budget for it. Researching the threads, it seems that the preferred mixers are the Santos, DLX, KA (spiral model). What I haven't seen though is the suitability of each of those mixers to the dough type. I tried to find if this has been talked about but it seems that the threads here are more focused on a mixer's efficiency.

For example, although I can see how the Santos is superior in making dough that is in the normal hydration range, I wonder how effective it would be when mixing a dough that's in the 70%-75% range where as a high-speed spiral mixer would be suitable. Also, in some other threads I found out that spiral mixers face problems when using high gluten flours and I wonder how true is that. Regarding the DLX, I still don't understand how it works exactly and cannot tell the range of hydration that it can handle.

Ideas anyone?  ;D

Saad


Offline Matthew

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 07:23:14 AM »
Hi Saad,

I have gone through a couple of Kitchen Aid's as well as a Cuisinart.  I currently own a Santos & a DLX.  Both mixers are fantastic & yield similar results.  If I had to do it all over again, my pick would be the DLX because it's half the size & half the price of the Santos.  It also has a very impressive capacity of 23 cups of flour.  It yields excellent results for small as well as large batches.  Most of my doughs are Neapolitan in the 59-60% hydration range, I have also made foccacia in the 70-75% hydration range several times with excellent results.  The kneading motion with the DLX is very gentle vs the Santos & requires alot more time for a finished dough (approximately 20 minutes vs. about 6 minutes with the Santos)  Don't get me wrong the Santos is a great machine, it's downfall is that it requires alot of help when mixing smaller batches & because it's a commercial machines it's extremely large.  Hope this helped you out.

Take Care,
Matt

Offline s00da

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 08:16:54 AM »
Hi Saad,

I have gone through a couple of Kitchen Aid's as well as a Cuisinart.  I currently own a Santos & a DLX.  Both mixers are fantastic & yield similar results.  If I had to do it all over again, my pick would be the DLX because it's half the size & half the price of the Santos.  It also has a very impressive capacity of 23 cups of flour.  It yields excellent results for small as well as large batches.  Most of my doughs are Neapolitan in the 59-60% hydration range, I have also made foccacia in the 70-75% hydration range several times with excellent results.  The kneading motion with the DLX is very gentle vs the Santos & requires alot more time for a finished dough (approximately 20 minutes vs. about 6 minutes with the Santos)  Don't get me wrong the Santos is a great machine, it's downfall is that it requires alot of help when mixing smaller batches & because it's a commercial machines it's extremely large.  Hope this helped you out.

Take Care,
Matt

Matt,

I really appreciate your opinion. Actually I'm glad that you own both mixers I'm considering. Looking at your experience, it looks like the DLX so far but let me ask you a couple of questions if I may...

Are you using the DLX with the wet-kneading method of varasano or can you just dump in all the flour, switch it on and let it do the work? and what do you think is the largest dough size you can make with the DLX with minimal intervention?

Have you tried the santos with a hydration of 70-75% and if not, do you think it can work the gluten? since the santos is very efficient at kneading (6 mins) do you think it's hard to use AP flour with it as it will be hard to avoid over-kneading?


My current mixer is a KA-like with a beater and a c-hook. Mixing is easy if it was AP flour up to 2.75lbs dough but when I switch to bread or caputo flour, then I really need to knead for 20 mins at least. What I'm really looking for is an efficient mixer so I can just dump in the flour, let it knead unattended and come back to it. My dough size range is 1.43-2.75lbs but now need to up that to 5lbs minimum as pizza party demand is increasing. Also I want it to handle a wide range of hydration.

Saad

Offline toyman

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 11:22:53 AM »
I have been using my DLX for about a year, coming from a KA. 

Are you using the DLX with the wet-kneading method of varasano or can you just dump in all the flour, switch it on and let it do the work? and what do you think is the largest dough size you can make with the DLX with minimal intervention?

I use the wet-kneading method, all wet ingredients in bowl, add 75% flour, 20 min autolyze, balance of dry ingredients, knead for another 14-20 minutes depending on dough.  I normally use a 65% hydration for my doughs and have done 11#'s of dough in one batch.  I wouldn't call the DLX a "minimum intervention" machine, at least in my experience, especially with larger batches.  I use a spatula to keep the dough from climbing the dough hook and getting under the spring arm.  Not a big deal, but good to know. 

I keep a stock of Caputo, Hi-gluten and AP/Bread flour on hand for breads and pizza doughs and the DLX has been great with all of them.  Can't help with the Santo's question as I don't have one of those.

Offline s00da

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 01:36:57 PM »
Thanks a lot for the information. I didn't know the DLX can work with this much dough. 11 lbs! wow, that's as much as the santos recommended maximum capacity. Do you think, for a smaller dough, you can get away without using the wet-kneading method?

Saad

Offline Matthew

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 03:32:57 PM »
Matt,

I really appreciate your opinion. Actually I'm glad that you own both mixers I'm considering. Looking at your experience, it looks like the DLX so far but let me ask you a couple of questions if I may...

Are you using the DLX with the wet-kneading method of varasano or can you just dump in all the flour, switch it on and let it do the work? and what do you think is the largest dough size you can make with the DLX with minimal intervention?

Have you tried the santos with a hydration of 70-75% and if not, do you think it can work the gluten? since the santos is very efficient at kneading (6 mins) do you think it's hard to use AP flour with it as it will be hard to avoid over-kneading?


My current mixer is a KA-like with a beater and a c-hook. Mixing is easy if it was AP flour up to 2.75lbs dough but when I switch to bread or caputo flour, then I really need to knead for 20 mins at least. What I'm really looking for is an efficient mixer so I can just dump in the flour, let it knead unattended and come back to it. My dough size range is 1.43-2.75lbs but now need to up that to 5lbs minimum as pizza party demand is increasing. Also I want it to handle a wide range of hydration.

Saad

Saad,
I use a starter with all my doughs & do a room temp bulk fermentation for 24 hours prior forming the panelli & have found an autolyse to be of little or no benefit for me.  I also always finish my dough by hand to get it to exactly where I need it to be.  If I were not using a natural starter I would do a riposo at the end of the kneading for about 20 minutes & then form the panelli.  My process for the Santos & DLX are the exact same the major difference is the kneading time.  I dissolve the salt in the water & then slowly begin to add my flour until I get the consistency of a pancake batter.  At that point I add my starter & continue to slowly add flour.  Once I get it to the right consistency I take it out of the mixer & finish it by hand.

I make high hydration (75%) foccacia dough with high gluten four all the time & the DLX is my machine of choice without question.

I have never "maxed out" the capacity,  but it will without question easily handle 5lbs.  I do not us the dough hook on the DLX, only the roller & scraper.  Unless it's an error, the owner's manual states that you can mix a triple batch of dough (23 cups of flour) using the roller & scraper.

Matt

« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 03:40:14 PM by Matthew »

Offline s00da

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 05:05:50 PM »
Thanks Matt! that's great information.

The way I see it now it that both the DLX and Santos serve what I need in terms of capacity. As for kneading efficiency, the Santos wins by requiring less kneading time where as the DLX is more of a general purpose machine that's also good for high hydration doughs.

When comparing price, I guess the DLX is the machine of choice.

Let's see if we get more opinions in the next couple of days while I search the internet for good deals  :D

Saad

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 10:33:29 PM »
saad,  I do not think that enough of our members ended up with the bosch universal.  I have had it for about 4 years and my opinion of it continues to increase.  If it has one flaw it is that it can heat the dough up a little bit during mixing with the plastic bowl,  less with the ss bowl.  Since I have bought mine,  they have a new and improved model.  Tough to improve on a classic, but knowing bosch,  I am sure that they did.  The dough that comes out of this is very consistent and smooth.  You can litterally dump water,salt flour yeast mix for 10 minutes and you are done.  Add a little rest here and there where you might think that you should and the results are killer.  It also happens to perfom ALL kitchen tasks as good or better than anything else.  Ohh then theres reliability.  they claim less than 1% fail over the last 20 years or something along those lines.  You decide in the end.  But you might regret not putting this on you short short list.  -marc 

Offline s00da

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 04:39:50 AM »
Marc, thanks for jumping in. Actually I looked up Bosch's website trying to understand the mixing/kneading mechanism of the universal without luck. All I can see is a white bowl with probably the mixing mechanism coming from the bottom of the bowl. Can you detail more on: 1) Mixing/kneading mechanism (hook, spiral...?) 2) Maximum dough size that can be prepared without intervention. 3) Do you think it can handle dough with a 70-75% hydration? 4) How big is your usual batch? and for how long do you knead it?

Saad


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 08:07:50 AM »

For example, although I can see how the Santos is superior in making dough that is in the normal hydration range, I wonder how effective it would be when mixing a dough that's in the 70%-75% range


Saad,

The highest hydration dough I make is ciabatta at ~80% hydration with KA flour in the Santos. I'll be making up a batch today and will see if I have time to make a video of the kneading.
Sometimes I use big words that I donít fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis. - @itjenlawrence

Offline s00da

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 10:07:36 AM »
80%!  :o

You see Bill, the reason I doubted the Santos being effective in high hydration is because I noticed that mixing speed is very important to develop gluten in a wet dough. I recall reading a post for Marco about this, also another recipe "Rustic Pizza" if I got the name right, needed high speed to develop gluten.

I can't wait to see the video, it will be very interesting.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 10:10:50 AM by s00da »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 10:45:48 AM »
Saad,

I will be using KA AP. Sometime I use KA BF. It would NEVER work with Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour.
Sometimes I use big words that I donít fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis. - @itjenlawrence

Offline s00da

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 10:49:14 AM »
Saad,

I will be using KA AP. Sometime I use KA BF. It would NEVER work with Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour.

Is it because of the hydration? can 00 be used if you lower the hydration to 70%?


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 12:08:30 PM »
Marc, thanks for jumping in. Actually I looked up Bosch's website trying to understand the mixing/kneading mechanism of the universal without luck. All I can see is a white bowl with probably the mixing mechanism coming from the bottom of the bowl. Can you detail more on: 1) Mixing/kneading mechanism (hook, spiral...?) 2) Maximum dough size that can be prepared without intervention. 3) Do you think it can handle dough with a 70-75% hydration? 4) How big is your usual batch? and for how long do you knead it?

Saad

Saad,  1)The two different bowls have different dough "hooks"  They both work very well and sort of work opposite from one another.  one works from the top down,  plastic,  the other from the bottom up.  They are kind of a combination of dough hook,  spiral ish type.  2)with the outer cover on,  I can do apx 6-7 lbs without an issue in the plastic bowl,  and more in the ss bowl rig,  about 7-9 lbs.  I am making a huge batch today so I'll try and max it out.  Its going to be caputo 58-9% because it is pooring up here in the northeast.  3) 70-75% is very easy in this machine.  In fact,  I have made the pizza rustica recipie,  and was amazed at how the gluten developed at such a high hydration that recipie makes a great short tem pizza.  4)  my normal batch is 3-5 lbs.  mix time is almost always 10 minutes.  When using the all at once method,  dough begins to come together in about 30 seconds.  Hope this helps  -marc
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 12:12:00 PM by widespreadpizza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2009, 02:03:45 PM »
Marc,

There had been a fair amount of discussion about the maximum capacity of the Bosch (and other) units, and I'm sure I have asked this question before relative to the Bosch, but what would you say is the smallest amount of dough that can be made successfully with the Bosch? This is for those members--like me--who do not routinely make large batches of dough.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2009, 03:13:00 PM »
Saad,

Here is a rough cut of a video I made:



The total kneading time was 15 minutes. Total time, rest periods, etc. not relevant since I'm just experimenting with this recipe. Main point is to show how Santos handles wet doughs. After about the 2-minute point, there was no manual "helping". Hope this helps.

 
Sometimes I use big words that I donít fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis. - @itjenlawrence

Offline s00da

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2009, 06:20:58 PM »
Bill, the smoothness of the dough confirms the santos ability to knead in high hydration and 15 minutes is very reasonable. I didn't expect the santos would do this considering it's slow motion as I thought it would just stir the dough but it seems that it does most of the kneading with that mini stretching strokes.

So far it seems like the choice is between the santos and the DLX as both produce well kneaded doughs in the range of hydration that I need. The DLX has an attractive price and suitable for small size batches while the santos is more efficient by cutting down mixing time, so the DLX has an advantage. As for the Bosch, i checked some youtube videos and the mixing style is very unique but like Pete noted, the question is how small the dough it can knead? I must say that I'm not a big fan of plastic, not that there is anything wrong with it but I like stainless steel in my equipment collection. One thing though is that Bosch is available where I live and I can get support for it so it is worth a trip to check the prices. If I ever settle with the DLX or the santos, I will have to order them online and have them shipped internationally  :'(

One thing I forgot about is that I have 220-240 V outlest and I need to check which of those mixers supports it.

Saad


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2009, 08:57:40 AM »
Is it because of the hydration? can 00 be used if you lower the hydration to 70%?

The highest hydration I think I've used with Caputo is ~65%. The Santos works the dough just fine at this level, but I've found the resulting dough can be difficult to handle without lots of bench flour.
Sometimes I use big words that I donít fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis. - @itjenlawrence

Offline BurntEdges

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2009, 01:36:51 PM »
There had been a fair amount of discussion about the maximum capacity of the Bosch (and other) units, and I'm sure I have asked this question before relative to the Bosch, but what would you say is the smallest amount of dough that can be made successfully with the Bosch? This is for those members--like me--who do not routinely make large batches of dough.

Peter,
I really appreciate your question because I purchased a Bosch because of it's maximum capacity.  However, the irony I ran into with this mixer was its minimum capacity.  I could not get it to satisfactorily knead less than 2 pounds of dough.  In the endless search for the best crust, I am always trying numerous variations and recipes.  A trial batch for me is never more than 1 pound, sometimes a bit less.  This is where the Kitchen Aid was very helpful.  However, I will note that the KA wouldn't make more than 2 pounds without emitting some threatening noises.   

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2009, 02:37:59 PM »
Pete, Saad, I missed your question about minimum capacity.  I think B.E. is right about 2 #'s  I have not done a small batch lately, on the other hand,  I just did an 8# batch saturday morning in the stainless bowl,  came out great,  and the mixer had no problem with it at all,  could probably go to ten if I wanted.  I took some video of it and may post it on you tube if anyone is interested.  -marc

Offline s00da

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2009, 05:34:42 PM »
Pete, Saad, I missed your question about minimum capacity.  I think B.E. is right about 2 #'s  I have not done a small batch lately, on the other hand,  I just did an 8# batch saturday morning in the stainless bowl,  came out great,  and the mixer had no problem with it at all,  could probably go to ten if I wanted.  I took some video of it and may post it on you tube if anyone is interested.  -marc

Marc, I visited the Bosch dealer where I live since it's the only mixer available to me locally among the three (Santos, DLX and Bosch). It turns out that the model you have is not supplied to our region but there was a different similar model. It's model number is Bosch MUM7300 (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spar-momsen.dk%2Fshop%2Fbosch-mum-7300-1607p.html&sl=da&tl=en&hl=EN&ie=UTF-8) and as you can see from the picture is consists of only the bowl which is fine by me. What's cool about it is that's it's stainless steel, I was turned down by the Bosch cuz of plastic but now the situation is different. Now if I buy this Bosch mixer, I will get support for it and warranty, it's on sale! $339  ;D and it satisfies my stainless steel addiction. I'm not sure though if it can perform the same as the one you have but looking at the specs, it looks similar.

Below is an image of it, there are 2 attachments. A whisk and a dough hook. Is this hook similar to the one you have on your Bosch mixer?

Saad
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 05:37:22 PM by s00da »

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2009, 06:39:27 PM »
Saad,  they are quite a bit different.  You can see my bowls here.

http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/bosch_universal.aspx


That being said,  I doubt they redesigned it to perform worse.  That hook looks like it could be very effective.  I would give it a shot if I were you.  Besides if you dont like it you could bring it back like I did with my Kitchen Aid a few years back.  I'd love to see what you think of the new model too.


Offline s00da

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2009, 11:06:21 AM »
Unfortunately this isn't a newer model. It's just a model designated for the region. I worry that the dough hook difference will result in very different results.


This is for fun, I found this video during my search of mixers

Saad

Offline s00da

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Re: Mixer and Dough Type
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2009, 03:15:16 PM »
Pete, Saad, I missed your question about minimum capacity.  I think B.E. is right about 2 #'s  I have not done a small batch lately, on the other hand,  I just did an 8# batch saturday morning in the stainless bowl,  came out great,  and the mixer had no problem with it at all,  could probably go to ten if I wanted.  I took some video of it and may post it on you tube if anyone is interested.  -marc

How did I forget to ask you to share those videos?  :P

Yes please, I would like to see how the finished dough looks like!

Saad


 

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