Author Topic: Almost Neopolitan  (Read 1685 times)

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Online norma427

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Almost Neopolitan
« on: August 15, 2010, 09:43:54 PM »
I made a pie today with an Ischia Sourdough starter and "00" flour.  I proofed the dough bulk rise first in the proofing box and then after I balled the dough into a dough ball, I let it proof again in the proofing box.  Although this pie was made in my BBQ grill set-up and the temperatures didn't get as high as a WFO, I thought this pie was really different.  Temperature in the BBQ grill set-up was 726 degrees F.  This pie took about 3 minutes to bake

I guess this pie is almost Neopolitan, since it had a sourdough starter and the flour used was "00".

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2010, 09:49:01 PM »
 :-D  you make me smile Norma.  Careful turn back while you can.  This is the road less travelled and it's a seemingly endless road.  I've been lost in the almostpolitan woods for the last several weeks.  I think I'm getting closer to finding my way out.   8)

Chau
 

Online norma427

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2010, 09:57:25 PM »
:-D  you make me smile Norma.  Careful turn back while you can.  This is the road less travelled and it's a seemingly endless road.  I've been lost in the almostpolitan woods for the last several weeks.  I think I'm getting closer to finding my way out.   8)

Chau
 

Jackie Tran,

You also make me smile.  ;D  I am not turning back now.  This is just the beginning.  :-D  As for your latest pies, they look great.  You are well on your way.

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2010, 10:50:53 PM »
From one BBQer to another, LOOKING GOOD!

Craig
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Online norma427

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2010, 10:54:57 PM »
From one BBQer to another, LOOKING GOOD!

Craig

Craig,

Thanks for saying the pie looked good.  My home oven can't get up that high, so I guess we BBQers do have to do something to get temps up.  :-D

  Thanks from one BBQer to another.   :)
Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2010, 11:08:51 PM »
One thought - in your 3rd picture above, it looks like you might be able to use a little less bench flour when opening your dough ball. It takes less than you would think and makes a difference at the higher temperatures.

Speaking from personal experience, my pizza has gotten better as I have cut back the bench flour.

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Online norma427

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2010, 11:15:39 PM »
One thought - in your 3rd picture above, it looks like you might be able to use a little less bench flour when opening your dough ball. It takes less than you would think and makes a difference at the higher temperatures.

Speaking from personal experience, my pizza has gotten better as I have cut back the bench flour.

Craig

Craig,

I don't usually use this high of hydration dough.  It was 66% hydration and it felt very sticky to me.  I will try the next time to use less flour. Since you have done this many times, I appreciate your advise.

Thanks for your idea about the bench flour.  :)

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2010, 11:23:52 PM »
What does the rest of your dough formulation look like?

How much time are you giving the dough after you make the balls? How much is it rising in that time?

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Online norma427

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 11:29:59 PM »
What does the rest of your dough formulation look like?

How much time are you giving the dough after you make the balls? How much is it rising in that time?

Craig


Craig,

This is where I started today at Reply 59 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11578.msg106859.html#msg106859 if you go down from that post you can see what I did to make this dough.

This is the formula I used. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11578.msg106880.html#msg106880

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2010, 12:01:11 AM »
I would suggest kneading the dough by hand a little (before the bulk ferment) until it is smooth. That should make it a little less sticky.

I didn't see how long it is rising after you ball it up?

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.


Online norma427

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 12:08:38 AM »
I would suggest kneading the dough by hand a little (before the bulk ferment) until it is smooth. That should make it a little less sticky.

I didn't see how long it is rising after you ball it up?

Craig

Craig,

Thanks again for the tips about kneading the dough.  I just wanted to try out my new active sourdough starter today, and I knew I should have planned it out better and started my dough last evening, but since I wanted to make the pizza today, I had to improvise a little.  After the bulk ferment which was about four hours or more in the proofing box at 85 degrees F, I then balled the dough and proofed again for about 3 hours at 85 degrees F.  I know these aren't optimal conditions to make this style of pizza, but it was getting late and if I wanted to see enough outside (it was getting dark and I only have a limited amount of lighting outside at the BBQ grill set-up) I had to then heat my BBQ grill set-up and give it enough time to warm-up.  This is why I made this pizza in one day.

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2010, 09:38:22 AM »
Picture of cooled down slices of Almost Neopolitan pie.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 10:28:51 AM »
Norma,

Your use of both the Ischia and the ADY is what Professor Calvel would call a "hybrid" method. That is a method that he said would be used to make bread in France in the cool months of the year to give the dough more volume, as I discussed at about the middle of the post at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg66414/topicseen.html#msg66414. Once you get your Ischia culture up to speed where it can operate efficiently on its own, without a belt and suspenders approach, I'd like to see you omit the ADY. If you combine the use of ADY and your Ischia at an elevated temperature, as you did with your proofing box, it is difficult to tell which form of yeast was responsible for what. Both forms of yeast will compete for nutrients and, in such a race, the commercial yeast is likely to win. That might mean less acid production from the wild yeast and, hence, reduced flavor and aroma in the finished crust. Although you used what might be considered a small amount of ADY, as you know it doesn't take much yeast at a fermentation temperature of 85 degrees F for the ADY to go hog wild. I demonstrated this at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332 where I described the use of minuscule amounts of IDY (e.g., 1/100th of a teaspoon of IDY for a roughly 15-ounce dough ball) in a dough that fermented at a room temperature of around 80-82 degrees F for almost a day.

When I conducted my experiments using a combination of wild yeast and commercial yeast, and also using wild yeast alone, I found the crust flavors to be more complex and satisfying when using just the wild yeast. I didn't always get the best oven spring (in my home oven at normal temperatures) but I suspect that is why a lot of people choose to use the hybrid method, as Prof. Calvel did in the cooler months.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 05:17:45 PM by Pete-zza »

Online norma427

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 11:28:29 AM »
Peter,

I see from your link that Prof. Calvel called this “hybrid” or levain de pate, when mixing a natural starter or preferment with a small amount of yeast.  Some day I would like to purchase “The Taste of Bread”. 

I was worried that feeding the starter and then making this dough for the pizza, in amount of time I had to spend yesterday wouldn’t be enough time, so that is why I added the ADY for extra insurance that the dough would rise.  I wanted to make this dough Saturday night, but didn’t have time.

I would also like to get my starters up to speed and then see how much different they are in the taste of the crust.  This crust did have a different flavors than any other crust I made.  The inside was nice and moist and the bottom and rim had a little crunch.  There even was a small complex taste to the crust.  I don’t know which yeast won out, but at least I had a chance to experiment and watch how this dough behaved.  I wondered if I had used a smaller amount of ADY and let the dough proof at room temperature and then cold fermented the dough ball, what would have happened then.

I did notice the dough and then dough ball rising fast, since I had used ADY.  I can understand I will be able to get more complex flavors when just using the starters I just activated.  It might take me awhile to go about trying all of these ideas out, but this will be another part of my pizza making journey.

Thanks for the links and information,

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 03:43:38 PM »
When I first started experimenting with the wild yeast cultures, I added a tiny amount of ADY thinking that I needed extended fermentation to develop the "sour" flavors. The wild yeast alone didn't do much under refrigeration, but with some ADY, I got good rise over 4 days. In the past couple years however, I've become convinced that 24+6 hours at room temperature (no ADY) develops more flavor than 4 days in the fridge. With 24 hours in bulk followed by ~4-6 hours more in balls (based on the look more so than the time), I believe I get every bit as much spring, and a lot better crumb, that I can with commercial yeast.

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Online norma427

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2010, 05:09:37 PM »
Craig,

I appreciate you telling me how to go about fermenting dough with “wild yeast starters”.  :)  I will try your ideas the next time I make a pie with a starter.  Since I don’t have any experience with this kind of dough, I will watch the dough to see how it behaves while room fermenting. 

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2010, 05:28:47 PM »
When I first started experimenting with the wild yeast cultures, I added a tiny amount of ADY thinking that I needed extended fermentation to develop the "sour" flavors. The wild yeast alone didn't do much under refrigeration, but with some ADY, I got good rise over 4 days. In the past couple years however, I've become convinced that 24+6 hours at room temperature (no ADY) develops more flavor than 4 days in the fridge. With 24 hours in bulk followed by ~4-6 hours more in balls (based on the look more so than the time), I believe I get every bit as much spring, and a lot better crumb, that I can with commercial yeast.

Craig

I used to do the same things, I would use a starter and do a 2 day ball rise in the frig but then I moved to 24hr bulk then 6hr ball at room temp and I tasted the starter more. I still want a little more starter flavor so I'm working on that right now with different bulk fermentation temps.

Norma the pie looks good I like how the basil is in the middle.

Online norma427

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Re: Almost Neopolitan
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2010, 07:45:36 PM »
I used to do the same things, I would use a starter and do a 2 day ball rise in the frig but then I moved to 24hr bulk then 6hr ball at room temp and I tasted the starter more. I still want a little more starter flavor so I'm working on that right now with different bulk fermentation temps.

Norma the pie looks good I like how the basil is in the middle.

BrickStoneOven,

Thanks for telling me how you also experimented and how you proof your sour dough now.  I can understand how the flavors would develop over time, while doing a bulk ferment and then balling and fermenting more.  I really want to be able to understand how starters work and find out what I can achieve with them.  I have watched for a long while, other members and how they went about using “wild yeast” starters.  Their pies and yours look amazing and I always wanted to taste a pie made with these “wild yeast” starters.  When using these “wild yeast” starters it seems like almost everyone is still learning.

I hope in time, I will learn about using “wild yeast” starters.

Thanks for saying my pie looks good.  :)

Norma
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