Author Topic: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish  (Read 1994 times)

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Offline zalicious

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Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« on: July 31, 2009, 03:49:58 PM »
I have spent an enjoyable day re-reading Evelyne's book , & would like to make a scaled down version of her pie. Does the recipe exist in bakers %'s so I can do so? I've searched, but can't find :(.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 04:17:28 PM »
Jeanette,

Is the recipe the one at page 242 of Evelyne's book? If so, what size deep-dish pizza pan would you be using, is it straight-sided or sloping-side, what is its depth, and what kind/brand of flour and what kind of oil would you plan to use? The recipe at page 242 is recited in volume measurements but it may be possible to convert it to a baker's percent version and use the deep-dish dough calculating tool to determine roughly what the thickness factor is that applies to Evelyne's recipe.

Peter

Offline zalicious

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Re: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 04:35:48 PM »
You rock, Peter! :D
Yes, it is the recipe on p 242. Currently, I have both bread flour, & all purpose in the Dakota Maid brand ( I think I should use the AP in this recipe?). The oil is EVOO. As far as pan size goes; I have 3 sizes that I use for deep dish, but I could start with my sloping 8x9x1.875 ( interior dimensions ).

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 05:11:43 PM »
Jeanette,

In her book, Evelyne speaks very highly of the Hecker's flour (known by the name Ceresota in some markets). According to what Evelyne says at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.0.html, Hecker's has a protein content of 12.5%. That flour is a popular flour for Chicago deep-dish doughs. That would be my first choice, but if you don't have Hecker's (or Ceresota), I think you should be able to use a good bread flour such as the King Arthur bread flour (12.7% protein) or even the KAAP (11.7% protein). I suspect that the Gold Medal Better for Bread/Harvest King flour (around 12% +/-0.3% protein) will also work.

I am not familiar with the Dakota Maid brand of all-purpose flour, but it would be easier for me to do a conversion using some other flour for which I can use November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. The Dakota Maid flour is not in the pulldown menu for that tool. Please let me know which flour you decide to use. As you know, Evelyne's recipe only says "flour". If I had to guess, I would say that Evelyne perhaps had the Hecker's flour in mind. Unfortunately, the Hecker's (or Ceresota version) is not in the pulldown menu either. However, when I was last in the Boston area I was able to find some Hecker's, so I can use that for weight conversion purposes if you have Hecker's or can find some.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 08:32:56 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline zalicious

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Re: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2009, 05:29:54 PM »
I'm able to get the Better for Bread in my area. I sometimes use that, too.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2009, 05:40:34 PM »
Jeanette,

I will use the Better for Bread flour for our purposes. I don't think the numbers will vary all that much among the flours I mentioned. I might still measure out some Hecker's flour just to see if I can get more accurate starting data from that flour.

Peter

Offline zalicious

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Re: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2009, 05:49:41 PM »
Thank you, Peter. You're so sweet. I will be eagerly waiting to see your results.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2009, 07:33:28 PM »
Jeanette,

I ran two scenarios using the Hecker's flour in Evelyne's deep-dish dough recipe. In the first scenario, I assumed that the flour is measured out "Textbook" style, specifically, by stirring the flour in the flour container, lifting the flour into the measuring cups (1-cup and 1/2-cup in our case), and then levelling the tops of the measuring cups with a flat edge (I used the flat edge of a basic kitchen knife). I also assumed that the deep-dish pan was a 15" straight-sided pan and that the dough was pushed 2" up the sides of that pan. Entering all of the data I calculated into the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html, I got the following:

Hecker's Flour (100%):
Water (56.0618%):
ADY (1.6795%):
Salt (1.3226%):
Olive Oil (12.7962%):
Cornmeal (18.8389%):
Total (190.699%):
422.11 g  |  14.89 oz | 0.93 lbs
236.64 g  |  8.35 oz | 0.52 lbs
7.09 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
54.01 g | 1.91 oz | 0.12 lbs | 4 tbsp | 0.25 cups
79.52 g | 2.8 oz | 0.18 lbs | 8 tbsp | 0.5 cups
804.95 g | 28.39 oz | 1.77 lbs | TF = 0.10955
Note: Assumes a 15" straight-sided deep-dish pan and that the dough is pushed 2" up the sides of the pan

For the second scenario, I assumed that the flour was measured out using the "Medium" measurement method, specifically, by stirring the flour in the flour container, then dipping the measuring cups into the flour container to scoop the flour out of the flour container, and leveling the tops of the measuring cups with a flat edge. Using the Medium flour measurement method, I got the following:

Hecker's Flour (100%):
Water (50.9872%):
ADY (1.52747%):
Salt (1.20288%):
Olive Oil (11.6379%):
Cornmeal (17.1336%):
Total (182.48905%):
464.05 g  |  16.37 oz | 1.02 lbs
236.6 g  |  8.35 oz | 0.52 lbs
7.09 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
54.01 g | 1.9 oz | 0.12 lbs | 4 tbsp | 0.25 cups
79.51 g | 2.8 oz | 0.18 lbs | 8 tbsp | 0.5 cups
846.83 g | 29.87 oz | 1.87 lbs | TF = 0.11525
Note: Assumes a 15" straight-sided deep-dish pan and that the dough is pushed 2" up the sides of the pan

Comparing the two thickness factors, 0.10955 and 0.11525, I concluded that the dough formulation based on using the Medium flour measurement method was closer to the thickness factor values of the Chicago deep-dish styles with which I am most familiar. So, for your purposes, I would use the 0.11525 thickness factor.

Using the 0.11525 thickness factor for your particular case using 1) the Better for Bread flour, 2) the Medium flour measurement method in the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, 3) your 8" x 9" sloping-sided deep-dish pan, 4) pushing the dough all the way up the sides of the deep-dish pan (1.875"), and 5) using a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% for good measure, this is what we end up with:

Better for Bread Flour (100%):
Water (51.0554%):
ADY (1.52951%):
Salt (1.20449%):
Olive Oil (11.6535%):
Cornmeal (17.1565%):
Total (182.5994%):
170.1 g  |  6 oz | 0.38 lbs
86.85 g  |  3.06 oz | 0.19 lbs
2.6 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
2.05 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
19.82 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.41 tsp | 1.47 tbsp
29.18 g | 1.03 oz | 0.06 lbs | 8.81 tsp | 2.94 tbsp
310.6 g | 10.96 oz | 0.68 lbs | TF = 0.1169788
Note: Assumes a 9" x 8" x 1.875" sloping-sided pan and that the dough is pushed all the way up the sides of the pan (1.875"); nominal thickess factor = 0.11525; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As you will note, the baker's percents for the Better for Bread version are very very close to the corresponding values for the Hecker's Medium version. That raises my confidence level. However, as with most recipes recited in volumes, you may find that some tweaking is necessary.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 07:35:12 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline zalicious

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Re: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2009, 10:19:32 PM »
Thanks, Peter, this is great :D. I printed out the recipe to tuck in my book so I can use your %'s for my other pan sizes, too. I hope to make this next Sat. Tonight I'm working on my "green" pie. :chef:

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2009, 10:40:48 PM »
Jeanette,

I think I may have found another explanation to suggest that Evelyne meant the "dip and level" method of flour measurement rather than the "spoon and level" method. For twenty years prior to 1989, General Mills, the pre-eminent flour miller in the U.S., suggested that users of its flours use the dip and level method of flour measurement. It wasn't until October, 1989 that it changed its recommendation and suggested that users use the spoon and level method. Evelyne's book was published in August of 1984. If she abided by the recommendations from General Mills at the time the book was published, she would have used the dip and level method of flour measurement.

In your case, I think I would add the flour gradually or, as Evelyne's instructions say (in Step 3):

Continue stirring in the flour 1/2 cup at a time, until the dough comes away from the sides of the bowl.

I believe Evelyne intends that all of the flour be used. When she means a range of an ingredient, her practice in the book is to specify that range. But, to be on the safe side from a hydration standpoint, I would add the flour gradually.

I might add that the hydration of 51.0554% that I specified in the recommended dough formulation is a bit misleading. That is because the cornmeal also has to be hydrated. Adding the flour and cornmeal together, the "effective" hydration drops to 43.52%. However, the oil at 11.6379% adds back some "wetness" to the dough. If you find that you have to use less flour, or use more water, to achieve the desired final dough condition, you might make a note on the extent of the changes in case you would like to modify the dough formulation for future use.

Peter





Offline zalicious

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Re: Evelyne Slomon's Chi-style Deep Dish
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2009, 12:15:40 AM »
I will keep this ( the water ), in mind when I make this next week.