First post! dough help

[ddacey]

Hello all, i have been reading and taking as much in as possible.  There really is so much good info on this forum.  I am in the pursuit, just like many of making the perfect East coast style pizza at home which is in Cincinnati, OH.  I grew up outside Philly so know just how good the pies are.  Any ways i have tried Jerry/Mac's recipe and use a cold fermenting recipe i have.  The dough always seems so tough.  It starts working and then it seems like it wants to shrink right back up.  I can usually get a pie around 12-14 inches after battling with it.  It just seems too hard to work with.  Maybe i just don't know how to work with it properly.  I have attempted 10-12 pies, they seem to cook ok the bottom has great color and texture, my crust is a little to thick for my liking, but i just think something is off with the dough getting it shaped and on the peel.  I have more details on exact process and ingredients.  I need a scale too.

16inch Pie

3-3.5cups    Flour (Primo Gusto High Gluten, Bleached and Bromated)
.5tsp           Yeast  (Fleischmann's ADY)
.5 cup         Warm water  105-110 F
.75 cup        Cold water
1.25 tsp       Sea salt
1.5 tsp         Olive oil
1.5 tsp         Sugar

I'll just outline my mixing.  I use a kitchenaid mixer.  Dissolve yeast in  warm water.  Then mix in sugar to yeast.  Then add cold water. Add salt.  Add olive oil.  Now start to add flour slowly.  Watch until dough is clearing sides.  Mix about 5 mins.  Pull out and shape cover lightly with olive oil spray place in airtight container and place in refrig for 2 days.  Then pull out about 2 hours prior to use.  That's where i feel something is wrong.  Thanks for any help dan

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

Is the amount of dough for one or two 16" pizzas and, if for two pizzas, when do you divide the dough into two pieces? Also, when you are shaping and stretching the dough to make a skin, do you re-knead, re-ball or re-work the dough in any way?

Peter

[ddacey]

Well the recipe lists it as one 16inch or 2- 12 inch pizzas.  When i start to use the dough i just start pressing it out with my fingertips no re-kneading.  Thanks Peter.  I was hoping to get your expertise.

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

Without knowing how you measure out the flour (i.e., how you get the flour from the bag or flour container into your measuring cup(s)), I estimate that your dough batch weight is around 24-26 ounces (this is based on the Textbook method of flour measurement recommended by flour producers). Those values correspond to a thickness factor of 0.12-0.13, which would represent a medium to thick crust for a single 16" pizza. If you used the dough to make two dough balls, then the best time to do that for a cold fermented dough is at the outset, that is, right after you remove the dough from the mixer bowl. If you do the dough division when the dough is removed from the refrigerator, you run the risk of overworking the dough as you try to form two round dough balls of equal weight.

Since you say that you did not re-knead the dough when time came to use it, then the only other explanation that I can offer is that you did not knead the dough long enough. Unless you used a high mixer speed, five minutes knead time in a KitchenAid stand mixer is not enough for 24-26 ounces of dough. Moreover, if you used other than the Textbook method of flour measurement, then it is possible that your dough weighed even more than 24-26 ounces, which would further suggest underkneading. Can you tell me how specifically you measured out the flour, and also whether you made one or two pizzas out of the dough?

Peter

[ddacey]

Well this would explain why its a little thicker than i like.  My measuring is sure not textbook.  I use measuring cups and overfill than level off with a straightedge.  I have never made two pizzas from this one dough batch.  I always just make one.  I literally just bought a scale and will begin using that.  Is there a dough you would recommend based on my earlier posting.  I really think using a scale will help make sure things are consistent and accurate.  Thanks dan

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

There are many dough recipes on the forum for a NY style pizza that should fit the bill for an East Coast style. I usually recommend the following thread for new pizza makers, mainly because I have had the most experience with the NY style pizza described in that thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. The basic dough recipe set forth in that thread (in Reply 8) can be modified to make any size pizza you would like, with any desired crust thickness, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. If you decide to try the abovementioned recipe and need any help using the tool, let me know.

Peter

[ddacey]

Thanks Peter, I actually just found that dough calculator and made an ingredient list.  Tell me what ya think.  I also think as you mentioned i need to mix longer.

Flour (100%)
Water (64%)
ADY (.75%)
Salt (2.1%)
Oil  (2%)
Sugar (2%)
Total (170.85%)

I was also just reading the thread in which someone was using ovaltine, i have plenty of that with 2 kids!!

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

If you are looking for a two-day dough, I think 0.75% ADY is too much and, along with 64% hydration, the dough is likely to ferment too much and too quickly. If it is warm where you are in Cincinnati, I think I would go with about half the amount of ADY and also use water on the cool side.

Have you decided yet on the amount of dough you want to use for the 16" pizza or a thickness factor?

I suggest also that you use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% for your KA mixer.

Peter

[ddacey]

I set the thickness at .10, i will cut back on th ADY as you recommend and give it another shot.  I used the basic dough calculator to try and come up with those last measurements.  When i get my next pizza finished i will take pics of the dough and finished product.  thanks for your help Peter.  Dan

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

I look forward to your report and photos.

Peter

[ddacey]

Well Peter,
I tried posting my pictures no luck.  They must be too big.  The pizzas i made turned out well.  Still need some tweaking.  Dough still feels like its fighting me.  Oh well.. Back to the drawing boards. I also just went back to Philly area and saw some pizza guys down at the Jersey shore, they make dough stretching look so easy.  The dough looks like its rubber.. I can't wait to get that perfect dough recipe down pat.  Thanks dan

[ddacey]

trying a picture

[ddacey]

allright it works

[ddacey]

I also just switched to using IDY instead of ADY.  Still waiting to get my scale. 

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

Can you tell me how you are baking your pizzas, in terms of the type of oven, pan or stone or screen, oven rack position(s), oven temperature, and bake time?

Peter

[ddacey]

Sure,

once i get a shape i lay the pizza on a 16inch screen.  I have an electric oven i heat to 550 degrees F.  Now i know most people on here say to allow the oven to preheat for a-while but i don't usually.  I bake it in the middle rack on the screen sitting on the round stone that i have.  It's a pampered chef stone.  I cook 7-8 minutes watching to where i think it's close.  Then remove from the screen and finish directly on the stone.  That's about it.  I think they seem to turn out well.  I haven't burnt one up yet.  Had some pizzas a little to thick.  i try to make my crust thinner on purpose.

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

The reason I asked you about your baking methodology is because I believe that you should be getting more top crust coloration with the high-gluten flour you are using.

I assume that you are using your 16" screen/stone combination because your stone is not big enough to directly handle 16" pizzas. When I make 16" pizzas (or larger pizzas), I place my stone (it is rectangular) on the lowest oven rack position and preheat it for about an hour at around 500-525 degrees F. I then place my 16" screen with the unbaked pizza on it at an upper oven rack position (usually the second rack from the top). When the rim starts to expand and to develop color, and the cheeses start to bubble and maybe even start to turn a light brown (which usually depends on the particular cheese I am using), I shift the pizza off of the screen onto my pizza stone (I remove the screen from the oven right after the shift). Since the pizza is rigid at this point, it can overlap the stone without incident. The hot pizza stone develops the bottom crust color. If I feel that I still need more top crust coloration, I will move the pizza back to the original oven rack position for about another minute. The total bake time is around 7-8 minutes.

I have tried the method you used but with the stone preheated as described above. Sometimes I will move the pizza to an upper rack position for more top crust coloration if needed. As between the two methods, I have found that I prefer the method described above. I think it is because the pizza gets optimum heat both on the screen and on the stone. If the pizza screen with the unbaked pizza on it is placed on the stone, the screen has to get to the right temperature before the pizza can bake. If the stone is only warm rather than hot, it will take even longer for the pizza to get to the right bake temperature.

Of course, if you are happy with your arrangement, there is no need for you to change anything.

Peter

[ddacey]

Peter,
I would agree with the crust not browning up as much as i would like.  Based on the theory that heat rises is that why on the top rack you can get more color or is it because of a broil feature.  Another question have you ever heard of the flour I'm using?  It's called Primo Gusto, i bought it at a Gordon Food Service store.  I wonder if i get a different brand maybe i will have different results.

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

I have used the broil feature before on many occasions but I almost never need to use it for a flour with a high protein content, such as bread flour or high-gluten flour. I might use the broiler if I need to brown the cheeses more or to cook certain toppings more, or if I am using a weak flour such as a 00 flour, but that is essentially the full extent of my use of the broiler. The placement of the pizza at a higher oven rack position as I discussed in my last post is to take advantage of the heat at the top of the oven.

I have heard of the Primo Gusto flour before but I have never tried it. If it is truly a high-gluten flour, it should have a protein content of around 14%. That is usually high enough to give plenty of crust color.

Peter