Author Topic: 00 Flour, All purpose Flour, Wheat Flour, Bread Flour... which to use?  (Read 5688 times)

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Offline deedub

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I recently bought some 00 flour in order to attempt neopolitan style pizza. I have used all purpose flour in all of my dough to date, and they turned out fine ( I spread them thin, and they ended up crispy on the outside a little softer on the inside, but pretty cracker-ish). I'm looking to make a NY style/Neopolitan style hybrid. Any suggestions for this?

A second questions comes back to my post title. As a newbie... which flours are best for which types of crusts? Does it depend more on kneading, fermentation or quantities of ingredients than it does on flour type? Please, enlighten me.

-Daniel
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Online Pete-zza

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Daniel,

As a point of clarification, how do you define "NY style/Neapolitan style hybrid"? Peter Reinhart, in his book American Pie, considers the pizzas from New Haven, Lombardi's, Totonno's, John's, Grimaldi's and Tacconelli's to be "Neo-Neapolitan" style. David Rosengarten has referred to some of these pizzas, and Di Fara's as well, as "NYapolitan" (pronounced "New York-apolitan") style pizzas. Do you have a particular name pizza in mind that meets your definition?

Peter

Offline deedub

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Pete,
I guess I would define it as more NY style than Neopolitan, in that it is mostly like NY style but still retains more of that bubly, floury quality that Neopolitan pizzas posses. I'm from southern california, and I cannot really think of any places which reflect what I'm imagining (and if I did... I'm sure few would know what I'm referring to). I'm looking for a light semi thin-semi medium thickness crust which has some chew, little crunch, while being cooked all the way through. Does this make any sense?
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Offline trosenberg

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What type of oven & temps are you using? It makes a huge difference.  To make a pie you describe in a home oven at less than 650 degrees stay away from Caputo and try high gluten or bread flour.  Caputo works best at higher temps.  I have a brick WFO and like to make the style pie you describe by mixing about 60% high gluten (KASL) with 40% Caputo and bake at about 750 degrees.
Trosenberg

Offline anton-luigi

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Sorry to hijack the thread, but Trosen,  is this a homebuilt WFO??  where did you source firebrick from,  and what kind did you buy? 

Offline trosenberg

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It is homebuilt in the sense that it is built at my home but I did not build it, professional masons did. It was constructed out of firebrick and built based upon the plans for a Pompeii oven on the Forno Bravo site.  IMHO it is a thing of beauty in its own brick building.  I will shoot some photos & try to post them tomorrow.
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Re: 00 Flour, All purpose Flour, Wheat Flour, Bread Flour... which to use?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 01:44:30 PM »
I guess I would define it as more NY style than Neapolitan, in that it is mostly like NY style but still retains more of that bubly, floury quality that Neopolitan pizzas posses. I'm from southern california, and I cannot really think of any places which reflect what I'm imagining (and if I did... I'm sure few would know what I'm referring to). I'm looking for a light semi thin-semi medium thickness crust which has some chew, little crunch, while being cooked all the way through. Does this make any sense?

Daniel,

It sounds like you are talking about a basic NY style, using a pretty standard combination of flour, water, yeast and salt. A dough skin made from such a combination is usually on the thin side but some people like a thicker skin--maybe more like a NY street style. Some also like to add a bit of oil to the dough for flavor and other purposes (depending on the amount of oil used, but typically under 3% of the flour weight).

As for your basic question relating flour types to pizza styles, I would say that, as somewhat a generalization, all-purpose flour can be used for pretty much most pizza types. For example, I have seen all-purpose flour used for the NY style, American style, Chicago traditional (South Side) and deep-dish styles, cracker style, Sicilian style, thick style, and the California style. There are Neapolitan style doughs that have been made using all-purpose flour, or combinations of all-purpose or bread flour and pastry flour or cake flour, but such doughs are really only attempts to copy the Neapolitan style. An authentic Neapolitan dough requires using Italian 00 flours.

Although all-purpose flour is a generally useful flour as noted above, there are many other possibilities. For example, the New York style dough can be made using all-purpose flour, bread flour or high-gluten flour. In the early days of pizza making, in the 1920s-1930s, all-purpose flour was the most widely used flour for the NY style. Bread flour existed during that period (for example, in 1920 there was a Gold Medal flour called High Protein Flour, later to become the Better for Bread Flour), that no doubt was also used to make the NY style. However, high-gluten flour did not become popular for pizza making in general (it was widely used for bagel dough) until sometime in the 1970s-1980s.  Today, I would say that high-gluten flour is the most popular choice for the NY style, especially in the NY City area. As you may discover, high-gluten flour is rarely found at the retail, supermarket level. For that reason, many of our members use a high quality bread flour. Some even prefer that flour over the high-gluten flour for the NY style.

The doughs for American style pizzas, as typified by Papa John's, Domino's, Little Caesar and Pizza Hut, generally are made using a high protein flour, either high-gluten flour or a proprietary high protein flour, which could even be a bread flour or something similar, milled and blended especially for those companies. It is not entirely clear what Pizza Hut is using. It has gone mainly to frozen doughs with a lot of additives that mask the type of flour used.

The most common flours used for the Chicago deep-dish style are all-purpose flour and bread flour. I don't recall ever seeing a Chicago deep-dish dough recipe calling for high-gluten flour. Even among bread flours, there is one that is considered to be the most authentic. It is the Hecker's flour, also called Ceresota in some markets. The Hecker's/Ceresota flour has a protein content of about 12.5%, which apparently makes it ideal for the Chicago deep-dish style. Its popularity may also stem from the fact that the Hecker's flour is a midwest flour that is readily available in the Chicago area. The traditional South Side Chicago style pizzas appear to use either all-purpose flour or possibly bread flour. Generally, the pizza places that offer both Chicago styles use the same flour and dough for both styles.

I would say that the most popular flour for the cracker style is bread flour or high-gluten flour. All-purpose flour can also be used but in my experience the top and bottom crusts, and especially the bottom crust, is not quite dark enough to suit my preference. However, you will find cracker-style dough recipes on the forum calling for all-purpose flour.

Neapolitan style doughs, specifically, those that are authentic Neapolitan doughs and intended to be baked in very high temperature ovens, as is done in Naples, use the Italian 00 flour. That flour is best adapted to very high temperature ovens. It does not perform with anything approaching the authentic Neapolitan style when used to make doughs to be baked in a standard home oven. If 00 flours cannot be found for any reason, flour blends attempting to simulate 00 flours can be used, as mentioned above, but they will not be authentic.

You will sometimes see combinations of the Caputo 00 flours with other flours to produce what one might call a "hybrid" flour. One well known example is Dom Demarco's use at Di Fara's of a 75/25% blend, by volume, of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and high-gluten flour (quite possibly the All Trumps high-gluten flour). In his case, he uses an old gas-fired oven (Bakers Pride) that operates at higher temperatures than most commercial gas-fired ovens.

Sicilian doughs can be made using either all-purpose flour, bread flour or high-gluten flour. Most flours used to make this style commercially are bromated flours. The bromates (potassium bromate) help retain the height of the dough during the final proof before baking, which is highly desirable for this style of pizza. Some people prefer to use a high-gluten flour because of its stronger gluten structure and its ability to produce good height and gas retention. However, it is doubtful that the Italians who invented this style (sfincione and its variations) used high-gluten flour. All-purpose flour or its equivalent based on their national grains were/are most likely used.

The traditional California style doughs tend to use mostly all-purpose flours, although using a whole-wheat flour in combination with all-purpose flour is also common. Apparently, doughs made form these flours seem to work best with exotic cheeses and toppings. No doubt, in certain cases, bread flour can also be used. The dough recipes in the California Pizza Kitchen Cookbook call for the use of all-purpose or bread flour. There is also a whole-wheat/bread flour version.

Whole wheat flour, whether the regular whole wheat flour of the "white" version, and other flours like rye flour, are typically used to make what we call on this forum "Specialty-Grain Pizzas". Often, the whole wheat flour is combined with all-purpose flour and sometimes with vital wheat gluten. You might see a reference here or there to a "whole wheat NY style" or a "whole wheat deep-dish style", but those applications will usually be someone's adaptation of those styles. Increasingly, however, pizza operators are adding whole wheat pizzas to their menus.

Peter

Offline deedub

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Re: 00 Flour, All purpose Flour, Wheat Flour, Bread Flour... which to use?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 12:13:36 PM »
Trosenberg - My oven goes to 500, my infrared grill goes to 700.

Petezza - Thanks for the lengthy and detailed message.

I think I'll try using a hybrid 00 and all purpose flour mixture and see how that comes out. Do you think that at 500, my oven is suitable for cooking such a mixture... or should I try grilling it to get the high temperatures? I also am confused with the recipe of simple flour, yeast, water, and salt. Most recipes I've seen thus far include lots of oil and some sugar/honey too. I guess the best thing I can do is just start experimenting, right?

One more question... Is it inappropriate to punch down dough after it has risen, or does it simply depend on what you're looking for? Also, should I always let the dough rise twice?
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Offline trosenberg

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Re: 00 Flour, All purpose Flour, Wheat Flour, Bread Flour... which to use?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2009, 01:20:44 PM »
I will certainly defer to Petezza but I think that Caputo Will not perform well at 500 degrees.  If you can heat a stone up over 600 the Caputo will be OK but it makes a pie that is somewhat softer than the crisper NY style you describe.  I personally prefer to mix high gluten flour with Caputo to make a pie some people refer to as NY Elite style.
Trosenberg

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Re: 00 Flour, All purpose Flour, Wheat Flour, Bread Flour... which to use?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2009, 01:33:42 PM »
Daniel,

I personally prefer using a blend of high-gluten flour and the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour to achieve a hybrid blend that will produce a finished crust with the desired features and characteristics, including color, flavor and texture. I demonstrated the feasibility of this approach in a series of posts starting with Reply 130 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.msg28423.html#msg28423. I am sure that it is possible to use a blend of all-purpose flour and the Caputo 00 flour, or even a blend of bread flour and the Caputo 00 flour, but you will have to do some experimenting to find the optimum mix of the two flours. Even then, it is unlikely that the finished product will be as good as one using high-gluten flour or even bread flour as part of the blend. However, that doesn't mean that you won't like the results.

With respect your question about the ingredients used to make a basic NY style dough, the early masters of the classic NY style dough in New York City used only flour, water, yeast and salt.  The pizzas were baked mostly in coal-fired ovens that could reach 800-1000 degrees F. They could not use sugar in the dough because the bottoms of the crusts would burn and turn black at those oven temperature. As member ilpizzaiolo points out at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9384/topicseen.html#msg9384, it wasn't until gas and electric ovens came into widespread use that sugar and oil were used in the dough, for the reasons mentioned in his post. Some people will add sugar to their NY style doughs if they plan to use cold fermentation covering a period of more than two days. There is no reason why you can't add oil and sugar to a dough, even in large quantities, but you won't have an authentic, classic NY style dough recipe. It will be more like an American style, as exemplified, for example, by the pizzas shown in this thread on Papa John's clones: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html.

Whether and the extent to which a dough should be punched down will depend primarily on the dough recipe used, especially the amount of yeast used and the water temperature, and the mode of fermentation. For example, if you use a large quantity of yeast, warm water, and a room-temperature fermentation, the dough will rise very rapidly and double or even triple in volume. You will pretty much have no choice but to punch the dough down one or more times and possibly re-knead the dough to get the desired strength of the gluten structure. However, if you use a small amount of yeast, cool or cold water, and a cold fermentation in the refrigerator, the dough will rise, but slowly and sometimes imperceptibly, and it may not even double in volume. This type of dough will usually not need any punching down--just pressing with the fingers at the time the dough is to be shaped and stretched to make a pizza. There is nothing magical or obligatory about the number of dough risings and punching downs. It depends mainly on the dough recipe used.

Peter



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Re: 00 Flour, All purpose Flour, Wheat Flour, Bread Flour... which to use?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2009, 02:13:35 PM »
Daniel,

Following up on my last post, I used member November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to determine the protein content of the 75/25 and 60/40 blends of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria and high-gluten (King Arthur Sir Lancelot) flours that I used in my Di Fara experiments. The 75/25 blend has a protein content of 12.55%, and the 60/40 blend has a protein content of 12.88%. There is no way that you can achieve either of those protein content values using a blend of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria and all-purpose flours since both of those flours have nominal protein contents below the above protein values. If you use bread flour (e.g., King Arthur bread flour) instead of all-purpose flour, you will get closer but the amount of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour will be so small as to skew the blend toward bread flour. For example, to get a combined protein content of 12.55%, you would use a Caputo 00 Pizzeria/bread flour blend of 21/79. There is no way of getting a combined protein blend of 12.88% (the protein levels of the two flours are too low). These are simply the realities of the situation and shouldn't deter you from experimenting with different flour blends. For example, in your case, you might start with a 50/50 Caputo 00 Pizzeria/all-purpose flour blend and adjust from there based on the results you get. The 50/50 blend will give you a total protein value of 11.85%.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 06:55:03 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline deedub

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Re: 00 Flour, All purpose Flour, Wheat Flour, Bread Flour... which to use?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 10:31:40 PM »
Thanks for all the responses

I just finished mixing my dough. I used 3 1/2 cups of flour (half 00 and half all purpose), 1 1/4 cups hot water, 1 1/2 tsp salt and ADY (a whole packet). I split the dough in half. I plan on letting one ball rise at room temp for 24 hours (I put it in a ziploc bag with a little oil, so as not to stick). The second ball, I have done the same as far as packaging, however I put it in the oven (off of course), but it is warmer there than at the current room temp. I plan on baking a pizza with that dough later today. I want to see what the difference is between 24 hour raised dough, and dough that's only taken a few hours worth of raising. I'm sure I'm making a hundred mistakes, but I feel I need to experiment right now. Before I get really serious, I need to get a scale, a peel and a couple specialty pans. Right now, I'm cooking with limited pizza making supplies.

Do you guys have any comments concerning using a gas grill to bake their pies? I am thinking about doing it this way, because I want to get a high heat for this dough (my grill goes up to 700, and my oven 500).
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: 00 Flour, All purpose Flour, Wheat Flour, Bread Flour... which to use?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 10:45:19 PM »
Dan,

If you want to see how to make a 24-hour room-temperature fermented dough, see the opening post in this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332. In my case, in my hot Texas kitchen, I used a bit more that one-half of a 1/64 teaspoon measuring spoon of yeast (IDY). You are using almost one teaspoon of ADY for the dough ball that you plan to leave at room temperature for 24 hours. I can't wait for you to tell us what happens to that dough ball at the end of the 24 hour room temperature fermentation ;D.

Peter

Offline deedub

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Re: 00 Flour, All purpose Flour, Wheat Flour, Bread Flour... which to use?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2009, 02:18:35 AM »
Here's an update:

The pizza I made tonight turned out fantastic! I'm getting closer towards what I'm looking for. My past pizzas were more cracker style (with 100% all purpose flour). This batch turned out nicely. I ended up baking it in the oven at 500 for convenience. I didn't get any photos.. however I will take some of the 24 hour batch.
Petezzza, I'm in  Southern California, and I leave the AC on most of the night, keeping the temp around 76, so hopefully the dough will be okay... so far it has doubled in size.
Sorry for the crappy photo.. all I have to use is my in-laptop webcam.
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