Author Topic: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading  (Read 13739 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2009, 12:26:13 PM »
And some slice pics...

Peter


Offline sabinoapizza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2009, 03:35:50 PM »

I have copied a very informative article on how a mixing method effects the characteristics of a crust.The article is written for bread bakers however it has applications for pizza dough.The source is San Francisco Baking Institute Newsletter Summer 20007, Volume 2



This is “Part Two” of my article on
How to Develop a Formula. Please
see our Winter 2007 newsletter
for “Part One.”
Choosing a Mixing Technique
Three main mixing techniques are available
to the baker: short mix, intensive mix and
improved mix. Different fi nal product characteristics will be
obtained depending on the technique you choose.
A. Short Mix
Using the short mix technique, the mixing of the dough generally happens only in fi rst speed. Consequently, the gluten will be underdeveloped and a long fermentation time, with a few punch and folds, is required to achieve the proper strength necessary to shape and proof the dough. As a direct result of
this combination (short mixing and long fermentation time)
the bread will have very creamy color (very limited dough
oxidation keeps the carotenoid pigments intact), highly
complex fl avor (long fermentation time) and an open and
irregular crumb structure (short mixing time.)
Volume will be somewhat penalized since the underdeveloped
gluten won’t be able to retain as much gas during fi nal
proofi ng. This technique can be used when the characteristics
of a hand mix bread need to be duplicated. However, due
to the lengthy fermentation process and the underdeveloped
gluten (making machinability diffi cult) this technique is not
suitable for high volume production.
B. Intensive Mix
With the intensive mix method, the dough is mixed to its full development creating a perfectly organized gluten structure. Because the dough is already strong enough, fi rst fermentation time can be shortened, making the dough very suitable for high speed production. However, due to the long mixing time, the crumb of the bread will be whiter (more oxidation is created) and not as visually appealing. Because of the short fi rst fermentation time, it is preferable to use a preferment in the formula or the fl avor of the bread will be bland and the shelf life shortened. The intensive mix technique creates breads with larger volume, fi ne cell structure (due to the perfectly organized gluten structure, which allows for even gas distribution and expansion during proofi ng and baking) and thin crust. C. Improved Mix
A combination of the short and intensive mix process, improved
mix technique is probably the most common mixing technique
used in artisan baking. The dough is mixed to the point where the gluten reaches about 75%-80% of its full development, leaving some space for fermentation activity to take place to complement the strength of the dough. The shorter mixing
time (compared to intensive mix) preserves the creaminess
of the crumb and the necessary fermentation time allows
aroma production and good shelf life for the fi nished product.
continued from page 1
continued on page 4
(3)
The cell structure of the crumb will be open and irregular (not as much as with the short mix technique, but much more than with the intensive mix technique.) Because of the better gluten development during mixing, the improved mix technique achieves dough with good machinability properties. For optimum dough and bread characteristics, this method can also be complemented with the use of
a preferment.
D. Double Hydration Technique
The growing demand for breads that are moist and dense inside with large and open cell structure (such as Ciabatta) has triggered the development of the double hydration technique. “Ciabatta-style” bread characteristics are usually achieved by mixing highly hydrated and well developed soft dough. The mixing of this type of dough can be obtained using two techniques.
The first technique is to add all the water at once at the beginning of the mixing process, and mix the dough to complete development. But in this case, to obtain a well-developed gluten structure, the mixing must be sufficiently long, as the extra water will interfere with proper gluten formation. Another option is to keep the mixing time short and achieve dough development with a series of punch and fold.
The first option is not ideal for product quality since long mixing time generates a lot of oxidation (therefore, a loss of flavor) and the second option is not particularly suitable for high volume production since folding large amounts of dough is not very efficient.
The newer technique—double hydration—is to add the water two times into the dough. The main advantage of this process is to create very soft dough with well-developed gluten structure, great machinability properties and good strength, with minimum mixing time to avoid over-oxidation of the dough. First the dough is mixed with only a portion of the total water of the formula to reach a medium/soft consistency. Depending on the flour and the type of preferment used, the water proportion usually represents 60% to 70% of the flour in the final dough.
The goal is to properly hydrate the flour components without getting an excess of “free” water or water not fixed by any flour components. Molecules of free water impede gluten bonding and gluten structure formation, leading to longer mixing time and more dough oxidation. Once the medium/soft consistency has been reached, the dough is mixed to obtain an improved mix gluten structure. Then, the remaining part of the water is added and the mixing continues until the water is perfectly incorporated into the dough.
As with butter in brioche dough, properly developed gluten can very easily take an extra “load” of ingredients or water. The final result is a dough with a very soft consistency but not sticky, and a well-developed gluten
that won’t require any folding during the first fermentation time. However, because of the soft consistency, the dough after mixing has an excess of extensibility, and requires some fermentation time to reestablish a good balance in strength. Obviously, this fermentation time is a positive thing for the quality of the bread as some gas and acidity will be developed, improving the cell structure of the finished product as well as its flavor and shelf life. After the first fermentation, because of its strength and its property of not being sticky, the dough can be processed by hand, and also has the characteristics required to run perfectly through a stress-free dividing and molding line.
Once bakers have mastered these well- established mixing techniques, they can easily create their own mixing process according to the desired type of bread, the equipment available at the bakery, or production requirements.
For example, a compromise between short mix and improved mix technique could be developed. To achieve this, it becomes important to modify the formula. If the mixing time is reduced, the first fermentation time must be increased to complement the development of the gluten structure.
The growing demand for breads that are moist and dense inside with large and open cell structure (such as Ciabatta) has triggered the development of the double hydration technique.
continued from page 3
continued on page 5
(4)
At this point, it becomes necessary to decrease the amount of yeast in the formula to control the fermentation activity. Water content should also be increased to counter the fact that acidity increases strength and penalizes extensibility of the dough after the first fermentation. Starting with a well-hydrated dough, which is adequately extensible, is necessary or machinability will be penalized. The possibilities are endless, but the baker must keep in mind that formula and process are
very interconnected and should be balanced carefully.
How long should the first
fermentation last?
The first fermentation time depends on the mixing technique used, and also on the type and proportion of preferment used in the formula. Intensive mixing generates dough with fully developed gluten structure. This type of technique is necessary when tight and even cell structure is required. As a result of the long mixing time, the dough is strong enough after mixing. Allowing the dough to ferment after mixing would add some strength (due to the acidity production) and might create dough very difficult to work with (lack of extensibility.) However, not having sufficient fermentation time will penalize flavor and shelf life. The only way to compensate is the use of preferment in the final dough.
Short mixing time will automatically require longer first fermentation time to achieve proper dough development. The carbon dioxide naturally generated during the first fermentation will stretch the gluten, while the acidity will reinforce the bounding of the structure. These two combined actions will improve the strength of the dough.
Some folds might be necessary if the gluten is deliberately left very underdeveloped at the end of mixing time. The folding will also improve the gluten structure by creating more bonds (a little bit like the hook of the mixer will do but in a much more gentle way.) The very positive aspect of having a long first fermentation is the aroma development and increase in shelf life. Both of these qualities are obtained by some specific acids developed during advanced stages of the fermentation time.
When a production process doesn’t allow much time for a long first fermentation, the formula must be modified. To avoid penalizing final product quality by shortening the first fermentation, the baker must do before mixing what can’t be done after: a portion of the flour is incorporated into a preferment to allow acidity production to happen before mixing. Once this portion of pre-fermented flour is returned to the final mix, it will bring most of the benefits of the fermentation (strength of the dough, flavor and shelf life.) First fermentation can then be reduced without compromising final product quality.
When formulating, very precise numbers are difficult to calculate, but as an average, involving 20% of the flour weight into a preferment could allow the baker to cut down his first fermentation from two hours to one hour. The amount of yeast would have to be adjusted in order to get the same amount of gas production.
The dough can also be placed at lower temperature (around 40°F to 50°F) after mixing. This technique allows the baker to delay the first fermentation time to accommodate production requirements. For example, the baker may mix the dough at the end of the production day and place it in the cooler until the next day. The dough is then ready to be divided as soon as the baker arrives at the bakery. This technique allows the baker to reduce night shift hours and still have some bread ready to bake early in the morning. The other advantage is that some of the dough can be divided first thing in the morning and the rest later in the day to offer fresh bread to customers without having to mix several times during the day. When using this technique, a very low amount of preferment is generally used in the formula.
The long first fermentation at low temperature naturally develops enough acidity to improve dough characteristics and bread qualities. Using too much preferment can negatively affect the gluten structure, as too much enzymatic activity and dough degradation can happen during the pre-fermentation process and the long first fermentation.
The possibilities are endless, but the baker must keep in mind that formula and process are very interconnected and should be balanced carefully.



Sabino

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2009, 04:25:49 PM »
I think it would also be useful to conduct an additional experiment in which the knead time in its totality, including the preliminary mixing time using the flat beater attachment, is kept as short as possible to better understand the effects of a very short knead time.

I decided to strike while the iron is hot and to make another Lehmann NY style dough but with a very short total mix/knead time. I used the same dough formulation as described in Reply 39 and also the same preparation methods but for the mix and knead times. The mix time, using the flat beater attachment at stir speed, was a bit over one minute; the succeeding knead time, using the C-hook at speed 2, was about 3 1/2 minutes. So the total mix/knead time was just under 5 minutes. The final dough was a bit stickier than the last dough but a fair amount of that stickiness disappeared as I shaped the dough into a round ball to go into its storage container. The total time elapsed from the point where I started the dough preparation to the point where the dough went into the refrigerator (after weighing and adjusting the dough weight, oiling the dough ball, and placing the poppy seeds on the dough ball) was around 10 minutes. The dough ball went into the refrigerator at almost exactly the same time of day as the last dough and was placed in the same spot in the refrigerator.

I plan to play things by ear this time since the latest dough ball is not exactly the same as the last one because of the slightly different water temperature (46.3 degrees F versus 48.2 degrees F for the last dough ball) and the lower finished dough temperature (78.5 degrees F versus 86.4 degrees F for the last dough ball). Also, the fermentation will be somewhat different because of the less developed gluten structure (because of the short knead time) and the lessened capacity of the gluten structure to retain the gases of fermentation.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2009, 04:49:09 PM »
I have copied a very informative article on how a mixing method effects the characteristics of a crust.The article is written for bread bakers however it has applications for pizza dough.The source is San Francisco Baking Institute Newsletter Summer 20007, Volume 2

Sabino,

I agree that the article you posted in an informative one. However, it seems to me that what one should consider when reading articles like that is that the form factor for pizza dough is different from that of bread dough. A bread dough, even some of the flatter and super-hydrated ones, have a fair amount of height and volume. By contrast, a pizza skin, with a few exceptions (e.g., proofed Sicilian doughs), is quite thin. Also, if the pizza is baked at a very high oven temperature on a hot stone surface, it is possible for the finished crumb to have an open and airy cellular structure rather than a tight one. That may help explain the open and airy crusts that member ThunderStik has achieved (e.g., see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9061.msg78379.html#msg78379) even using what one would consider highly extended knead times. Even my last pizza exhibited an open and airy crumb--maybe not as much as ThunderStik's pizza crusts but he was using a higher oven temperature than I (hence a greater oven spring) along with a cast iron pan on an upper rack position.

Peter

Offline sabinoapizza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2009, 05:27:04 PM »
Sabino,
Hi Pete-zza I understand the difference in procedures for making pizza dough and bread dough.I am a trained baker who has applied what I have learned in baking bread to pizza.My experience with pizza dough that is mixed a short period of time and has longer fermentation is that the crumb usually has a more open structure.In addition my experience with dough where the gluten is fully developed has a a tighter crumb.I realize there are other factors that effect the structure of the dough.I have found that my undermixed dough have good oven spring due to using a flour of higher protein.The above article is not the the bible on creating crust characteristic one likes in a pizza.My point is that by applying the techniques in the above article coupled with other procedures can help one to achieve a pizza with desired flavor and structure.
Sabino
Sabino

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2009, 06:31:11 PM »
Sabino,

We have quite a few members who have come to pizza making from the bread side. I personally did not. Before I found this forum, I spent an awful lot of time reading about pizza making at the PMQ website, which is devoted almost exclusively to commercial pizza making. Tom Lehmann has attempted from time to time to introduce artisanal principles taken from the bread world, mainly the use of preferments based on commercial yeast, but his ideas on that front have not attracted much interest at the PMQ Think Tank, most likely because they are not easy to implement and use in a commercial pizza operation. On this forum, on the other hand, there is great interest in bread making principles and their possible application to pizza making, including use of autolyse and similar rest periods, natural starters/preferments, commercially leavened preferments, stretch and fold, and so on. Many of these principles are implicated in one way or another, directly or indirectly, in the strength and development of the gluten structure, knead times, and the fermentation process. Ultimately it comes down to how much time and effort one is willing to devote to incorporating these principles in their pizza making in order to achieve certain desired end results.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2009, 09:26:26 AM »
Pete, I'm jealous that you're conducting the experiments that I've been planning  >:( but I'm sure you will be able to draw better conclusion with your experience.

From your experiment, I think the most noticeable effect of the extended knead time was the slow rising of the dough during fermentation that is most likely a cause of the well developed gluten network. Looking at the cross section of the slice made me think about how forming the pizza into a disk changes things as air is pushed from the center all the way to the rim. Added to that there are no toppings on the rim of course. So, as you mentioned; it's hard to draw conclusions from this isolated experiment. Comparing to a similar dough formulation with different knead time will certainly give a better result.

My plan for this experiment is to make dough enough for 3 pizzas and during kneading, I would remove an amount of dough at 5 minutes, 15 minutes and the remaining at 25 minutes. This way I can compare different mixing times on the same exact dough formulation.

Can't wait for you next experiment results.

Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2009, 10:18:15 AM »
My plan for this experiment is to make dough enough for 3 pizzas and during kneading, I would remove an amount of dough at 5 minutes, 15 minutes and the remaining at 25 minutes. This way I can compare different mixing times on the same exact dough formulation.

Saad,

That is actually a better, more scientific way to do it than I did. Also, your 15-minute dough will give you data in the middle.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2009, 12:53:25 PM »
Sabino, thanks for posting this useful information. The following part caught my eye and couldn't figure it out...

(4)
At this point, it becomes necessary to decrease the amount of yeast in the formula to control the fermentation activity. Water content should also be increased to counter the fact that acidity increases strength and penalizes extensibility of the dough after the first fermentation. Starting with a well-hydrated dough, which is adequately extensible, is necessary or machinability will be penalized. The possibilities are endless, but the baker must keep in mind that formula and process are
very interconnected and should be balanced carefully.
How long should the first
fermentation last?
The first fermentation time depends on the mixing technique used, and also on the type and proportion of preferment used in the formula. Intensive mixing generates dough with fully developed gluten structure. This type of technique is necessary when tight and even cell structure is required. As a result of the long mixing time, the dough is strong enough after mixing. Allowing the dough to ferment after mixing would add some strength (due to the acidity production) and might create dough very difficult to work with (lack of extensibility.) However, not having sufficient fermentation time will penalize flavor and shelf life. The only way to compensate is the use of preferment in the final dough.
Short mixing time will automatically require longer first fermentation time to achieve proper dough development. The carbon dioxide naturally generated during the first fermentation will stretch the gluten, while the acidity will reinforce the bounding of the structure. These two combined actions will improve the strength of the dough.

My current knowledge of long fermentation times with little yeast is that such doughs will end up being very extensible. Thus, the dough is approached with minimizing the hydration to end up with a dough that is easy to handle. While what you posted says the opposite....help  ???

I must add that I have been experimenting with extending fermentation time using the Ischia. My usual dough with the Ischia is fermented for 15 hours and then proofed for 4 hours. In an attempt to stretch the fermentation to 24 hours, I decreased the amount of the starter used and it resulted in a less extensible dough that wasn't easy to stretch. Also, the type of decrease in extensibility was not related to an increase in elasticity. The dough doesn't stretch back when pulled but it wasn't extensible as I'm used to it. This was for the Ischia starter but I didn't notice the same behavior when using IDY.

Saad
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 01:04:00 PM by s00da »

Offline UnConundrum

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2009, 08:52:44 PM »
Saad,
     How much Ischia do you normally use as a percentage of flour?  I'm guessing about 3%?


Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2009, 02:56:31 AM »
My original recipe uses 5% of water for 19 hours fermentation and 3.5% for 24 hours fermentation.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2009, 10:42:23 AM »
The results for my latest dough as initially mentioned in Reply 42 are in. This is the dough that was fairly severely underkneaded, with a total mix/knead time of about 4 ½-5 ½ minutes (1-2 minutes of mixing at stir speed with the flat beater attachment and 3 ½ minutes of kneading with the C-hook at speed 2). This contrasted with about 21-22 minutes of total mix/knead time for the last dough (1-2 minutes of mixing at stir speed with the flat beater and 20 minutes of kneading with the C-hook at speed 2).

Both doughs were prepared essentially identically with the exception that the underkneaded dough was made using water at 46.3 degrees F whereas the overkneaded dough was made using water at 48.2 degrees F. As a result, the finished dough temperature for the underkneaded dough was 78.5 degrees F whereas the finished dough temperature for the overkneaded dough was 86.4 degrees F. Room temperature during preparation of the two doughs was about the same for the two doughs. Both doughs were shaped in the same manner and baked in the same manner.

What surprised me most is that the underkneaded dough expanded at a faster rate than the overkneaded dough. With a lower finished dough temperature, I expected the underkneaded dough to ferment more slowly. Maybe a fully developed gluten structure somehow restrains the fermentation process as compared with a less developed gluten structure.

Here are the timelines and expansion numbers for the two doughs at the times I measured those values:

Overkneaded Dough                                                                                                        Underkneaded Dough
24 hours: no visible expansion (based on the spacing of the two poppy seeds)                          24 hours: 19.95%
48 hours: 42.4%                                                                                                            48 hours: 54.58%
72 hours: 52%                                                                                                               72 hours: 81%
78 hours: 67.5 %                                                                                                           78 hours: 83%
92 hours: 67.5%                                                                                                            92 hours: 95%
96 hours: 81.9% (when pizza was made)                                                                            96 hours: 96% (when pizza was made)

I have no explanation for the patterns and the way the numbers changed over time. Possibly the dough temperatures changed as items were routinely added and removed from the refrigerator in the normal course of the daily use of the refrigerator. 

Once I saw that the underkneaded dough was expanding faster than the overkneaded dough, I had to decide when to use the underkneaded dough. Should I use it when it expanded the same amount as the overkneaded dough, or after the same number of hours, or when it reached the same point visually as the overkneaded dough? When I saw that the underkneaded dough had not fermented visually as much as the overkneaded dough, I decided to use the underkneaded dough at the same time, after 96 hours, as the overkneaded dough. Even then, the underkneaded dough did not have as many fermentation bubbles as the overkneaded dough. When I used the underkneaded dough to form a skin (14”), it was less extensible than the overkneaded dough, as I expected it would be. When the underkneaded dough was dressed and baked, it baked up more completely than the pizza made using the overkneaded dough. That is, there were no underbaked or “pasty” parts. The rim of the underbaked dough was not as large as the overkneaded dough and not as breadlike, but it otherwise looked quite normal for a NY style pizza.

The photos below show the results for the pizza made using the underkneaded dough. As between that dough and the overkneaded dough, I thought that the pizza made with the underkneaded dough was better overall, mainly because it did not have any underbaked areas. Also, the bottom crust, while not overly crispy, was crispier than the pizza made using the overkneaded dough. The crust color and flavors were comparable, except the pizza made with the underkneaded dough seemed to bake a bit faster. I would say that both pizzas were equally chewy. But, given the choice, I would go with the underkneaded dough at this point.

I think it is premature to draw too many conclusions from a test of two doughs, especially since they were not made at the same time. On the one hand, the underkneaded dough fermented more quickly than the overkneaded dough but, on the other hand, at the same final point, after 96 hours, the overkneaded dough was either more overfermented or the protease enzymes were more active in attacking the gluten structure, making the overkneaded dough look and feel overfermented. Also, as noted previously, the crust made from the overkneaded dough had better oven spring. Consequently, I will be interested in Saad’s results for his three dough balls made at about the same time but with different knead times.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2009, 10:46:20 AM »
And some slice pics.....

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2009, 05:56:41 PM »
I have just finished preparing the 3 dough balls from one formulation as part of my experiment to understand the effects of knead time on crumb structure. The plan is to make a dough where equal portions will be removed from it at different time intervals. This way I have a consistent dough formulation so results can be more accurately attributed to kneading time. Of course temperature management and fermentation play an important role and I tried my best to compensate.

First of all the recipe %'s using GM Better for Bread (yes finally!):

Flour (100%):
Water (62.04%):
ADY (0.365%):
Salt (1.69%):
Oil (1.095%):
Total (165.19%):
Single Ball:
822.08 g  |  29 oz | 1.81 lbs
510.02 g  |  17.99 oz | 1.12 lbs
3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
13.89 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.89 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
1358 g | 47.9 oz | 2.99 lbs | TF = 0.103724
452.67 g | 15.97 oz | 1 lbs

A couple of notes on the dough:
1-  This is the first time I make dough using EVOO (except for high hydration Sicilian) because I'm intending to use my home oven. I'm avoiding my high temp oven because I know it has bad heat distribution and it's kind of hard to stabilize the temperature to bake the three pizzas equally.
2- I thought using ADY would be a good idea since it will be in liquid form; thus it will be much easier to get distributed evenly throughout the dough.
3- Even though I was playing it safe and planning on 3 balls of 444g each, I still ended up with 444g, 444g and 434g. Too bad  >:(

Mixing in order:
1- Dissolve salt in water at 45 F.
2- Add EVOO and just a small portion of the flour and mix on low speed with the flat beater until a very wet batter.
3- Add ADY after being hydrated for 10 mines and mix for 1 more minute. Now I have nice mixture where salt, EVOO and ADY are well mixed.
4- Now I add rest of the flour at once avoiding my usual gradual incorporation so dough hydration is consistent for all the dough balls. Mixing with the flat beater on slow for less than a minute until a very shaggy looking mixture. Here, I assume the end of the mixing stage where minimal gluten development took place.
5- Switched to c-hook and started kneading the dough at speed 2. The same speed is used until the end.
10- At 5 minutes, 444g of the dough is removed, formed into a ball and placed in a plastic container. I placed it at room temperature since the upcoming dough balls will be subjected to extra temperature due to more kneading.
11- Kneading is continued at speed 2 for 10 more minute. At the 15th minute, another 444g of the dough is removed, formed into a ball and placed in a plastic container. I also placed this one in room temperature.
12- Kneading for 10 more minutes. At the 25th minute, the final dough ball at 434g is formed into a ball, placed in a plastic container and directly into the fridge. Following after 5 minutes, the second dough went into the fridge and after another 5 minutes the initial dough went into the fridge. I thought placing them in the fridge in reverse order will help compensate for the ending temperature difference, even though I didn't measure it  :P I know, very unprofessional for such an experiment but I got lazy.

Next, some images...

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2009, 06:00:21 PM »
The first image is of the wet mixture that included salt, EVOO, ADY and a small portion of the recipe's flour. The idea of the mixture is to have the ingredients more distributed this way rather than using IDY in the middle of the kneading for example.

The second image is of the end of the mixing stage. From here I switch to the c-hook and begin gluten development.

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2009, 06:17:41 PM »
Images in sequence:
1- Dough at the 5th minute looking very rough.
2- Dough ball #1. The dough felt kind of stiff and looks bumpy in the image.
3- Dough at the 15th minute looking smoother.
4- Dough ball #2. The dough felt softer and looked smooth when formed into a ball.
5- Dough at the 25th minute does not look much different from at the 15th minute.
6- Dough ball #3. The dough felt very similar to Dough ball #2, maybe just a tiny bit softer.

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2009, 06:26:11 PM »
Final image of all dough balls into the fridge. The Ischia is saying hello.

Final notes:

Through out the kneading and from how the dough felt I would probably change kneading times due to the fact that the mixer's kneading efficiency was decreasing as the dough is becoming smaller in size. For the last dough ball, I don't think much kneading was happening as the dough was mostly just being tossed around in the bowl.

If I had to do the experiment again, I would change kneading to:
1- 5 minutes for Dough ball #1.
2- 15 minutes for Dough ball #2.
3- 10 minutes hand-kneading for Dough ball #3.

Will be taking an image tomorrow of dough balls side by side to compare expansion. All containers were numbered accordingly.

Saad

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2009, 10:28:29 AM »
Pete, Sooda,

    Petes observations about the gluten structure "containing" the ferm process is also my findings. I have also tried underkneading before and found I didnt like how quickly the ferm process geared up. I believe its because of the available moisture that has not been fully integrated coupled with the less restrictive struncture of the underkneaded dough. But that is just my opinion.

What makes me believe that is a batch that I made a couple of months ago. I had the balls in the fridge in an airtight container. They had been in for a few days and I wanted to check on them. Usually I dont "pop the top", but this day I did. When the lid was popped the ball literally grew by... just guesstimating 60%.  This made me think that the skin and fully developed structure may have the same effect as the lid.

In contrast to Pete's findings though, I have never had doughy spots in my dough. Nor is my structure bread-like, I have acheived that with an autolyse and didnt care for it at all. I will say that I do get a bit of extra chew though, and I like it that way. I also get a well done bottom but I suspect that is just differences in baking tools and technique.

Another difference is that I usually make 3-4 balls for 14" and lately(last 1-2 months) its been 16" as I have a new larger stone now.

But with enough dough for 3-4 16" balls it would take longer to get a thorough mix than with 1 12" as the work is concentrated on a smaller amount of dough.

Also my "go to" recipe is.

60% hydration with no oil and my oven gets pretty hot but I dont always go full blast (but all the pics I have up on this site are with the oven running full though).

I have also found differences in what different flours "like", the word "like" meaning the amount of work they need to feel "properly" to me.

Let me preface the following with this discalaimer. I have never been to New York or traveled around and eaten what is considered "good Pizza". Nor have I handled any professional dough.

All trumps needed much less working to feel like a "proper" dough to me and would not take the beating or overkneeding that others would. I can see why this would be a good pro flour for businesses as it doesnt need a really long kneading session.

Gold medal BFB needs more, guessing about 30+% but I like this flour better as it takes the heat better and controls the ferm process better IMO. Has a good flavor IMO

Pillsbury Bread, needs less work than BFB , makes a different color crust and has (to me) less flavor than the BFB.

I dont have access to the KA flours as I would like to try them. If you want to send some Pete I will make a few pies with it. But outside of that those are the only flours I have easily available to work with.

I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2009, 11:20:16 AM »
ThunderStik and Saad,

Another interesting phenomenon I witnessed is how both doughs peaked in terms of expansion. I ordinarily don't let a routine Lehmann NY style dough go for 4 days, so I wasn't expecting the doughs to peak and just sit there for quite a while--for several hours, actually. As it turns out, the overkneaded dough peaked sooner than the underkneaded dough. You will see from the data I posted that eventually both dough balls rose some more but it is important to note that I was eyeballing the spacing between the two poppy seeds and an increase in spacing of as little as 1/32" can translate into a rise of over 10%. So, even though I calibrated my eyeballs, there can easily be a reading error. But, even then, the overkneaded dough peaked much sooner than the underkneaded dough.

I am often hesitant to use the term "bread-like" since semantically it can mean different things to different people. I once tried to define the term at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62715/topicseen.html#msg62715 as a crust/crumb that is "soft, quite airy (fluffy), and not particularly chewy (i.e., offering little resistance to the tooth), much like a basic non-artisan supermarket bread." That definition also evolved out of my work with natural starters/preferments that had their own positive effects on the texture of the crust/crumb, specifically, a spring-like or rubber-band effect when you tug and pull on the crumb.

The King Arthur flour that I use is the King Arthur bread flour. It is sold in many regular supermarkets, like Kroger's (in my area) and by more upscale markets, like Whole Foods. I used to use the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour--which I assume you were thinking of--but found that the KABF worked fine for my purposes (plus I can supplement it with vital wheat gluten if I want to raise its protein content).

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2009, 11:42:26 AM »
Pete,

It is very possible that due to the well developed gluten matrix in the over-kneaded dough, the gas was retained better and resulting in the earlier peak.

While my doughs are still in the fridge and haven't completed even a 24 hours fermentation period, I wanted to ask you a question as I never made 14 inch pizzas while it seems like your standard size. For consistency purposes, I wonder if you can tell me the amount of sauce and cheese you use for the 14 inch?

Saad


 

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