Author Topic: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading  (Read 15819 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2009, 12:03:18 PM »
This is the first time I've heard that "air" may play an important role in kneading. I thought the crumb resulted from CO2 released by the yeast and that air was to be avoided as it would oxidize the dough and contribute to loss of flavor.  Obviously air can't be totally avoided, but consideration can be given to exposure to air in the mixing process.

As this piece from the theartisan.net website points out, at http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/dough_development.htm, air (oxygen) is needed by the yeast for cellular reproduction and the oxygen is used up very quickly by the yeast. I believe the article also confirms what Saad has said about the displacement of carbon dioxide (which goes into solution) by other gases. From what I have read in Prof. Calvel's book A Taste of Bread, the over-oxidation of dough is more likely to take place with aggressive kneading. He, too, is an advocate of using autolyse or similar rest periods to reduce the harmful effects of oxidation on carotenoids in the flour. According to Prof. Calvel, the addition of salt to the dough toward the end of the mix also increases oxidation of the dough because salt has anti-oxidative effects. He was not a fan of that method because he deemed it to lead to an artificial maturation of the dough.

Where air can also come back into the picture is during the division of a bulk dough into individual pieces that are kneaded and shaped into round dough balls. Some of the effects of doing this are discussed in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7022.msg60428.html#msg60428. As noted there, the added air (oxygen) introduced into the dough during division and reshaping is minimal and affects cellular respiration only slightly.

Peter


Offline UnConundrum

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2009, 09:40:50 PM »
Interesting.  So the O2 gets "eaten" quickly by the yeast and the Nitrogen hangs around as seed clouds for the CO2.  I guess when O2 is worked in faster than the yeast can deal with it we have the damaging type of oxidation where the carotenoids are destroyed.  That all makes sense, but I'm having trouble applying those theories to the doughs I make by hand without kneading.  I would have to think less air is incorporated, yet I can develop a great crumb
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 09:44:24 PM by UnConundrum »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2009, 10:20:12 PM »
There are other factors at work here. I'm convinced that much of the airiness of the crumb in my pies has a lot to do with the rapid conversion of water in the dough into vapor from the heat of the oven. Higher hydration can result in a very airy crust as long as the gluten structure is adequate to prevent the bubbles from blowing out. The higher the temperature, the quicker the structure will setup to prevent blowout. In my experience, there is fairly large window in terms of kneading time for the creation of a great crust. Hydration and temperature are more important than kneading in the conditions in which bake.



« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 10:34:18 PM by Bill/SFNM »

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2009, 11:54:08 PM »
There are other factors at work here. I'm convinced that much of the airiness of the crumb in my pies has a lot to do with the rapid conversion of water in the dough into vapor from the heat of the oven. Higher hydration can result in a very airy crust as long as the gluten structure is adequate to prevent the bubbles from blowing out. The higher the temperature, the quicker the structure will setup to prevent blowout. In my experience, there is fairly large window in terms of kneading time for the creation of a great crust. Hydration and temperature are more important than kneading in the conditions in which bake.






This what I have found also in my experiments.


Pete,
        I always use speed 2 as that is what the manual calls for. Lately I have been making enough for 3 pies. All the rest you had right. I have done 5 minute intervals from 10 min all the way to 50.  At 40-50 min the dough will be hard but given time to ferment it will loosen up and come down to the compliance of any other dough. I dont use an autolyse and the only rest periods I give the dough are for pulling the dough off the hook if it climbs and about every 8 min or so to let the motor cool down if im doing a long knead (30 sec rest, long knead = longer than 25 min).

I also dont let the dough sit and spin on the hook and start shredding itself. At every time I have tried I have made really nice doughs and not had any problems at all.

One of my main motivations initially when I did the 50 min knead was because many folks were worried about over kneading and damaging their doughs. At least for me that will never be a worry again. The window for kneading is so wide I have found that it is really not as big a factor as its made out to be.

Lately I have been experimenting with temps and I completely agree with Bill/SFNM. I have been working in 50 degree intervals from 450 to 650 and there is far far greater variation in the crusts than anything kneading will do outside of a totaally anihilated dough. Right now my dough recipe is really consitant and knead times are the least of my worries.

I will say though that I have switched back to GM BFB, it takes a beating better than the AT and it takes the heat better also ( doesnt try to burn nearly as easy).
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 11:57:18 PM by ThunderStik »
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2009, 04:00:52 AM »

This what I have found also in my experiments.


Pete,
        I always use speed 2 as that is what the manual calls for. Lately I have been making enough for 3 pies. All the rest you had right. I have done 5 minute intervals from 10 min all the way to 50.  At 40-50 min the dough will be hard but given time to ferment it will loosen up and come down to the compliance of any other dough. I dont use an autolyse and the only rest periods I give the dough are for pulling the dough off the hook if it climbs and about every 8 min or so to let the motor cool down if im doing a long knead (30 sec rest, long knead = longer than 25 min).

I also dont let the dough sit and spin on the hook and start shredding itself. At every time I have tried I have made really nice doughs and not had any problems at all.

One of my main motivations initially when I did the 50 min knead was because many folks were worried about over kneading and damaging their doughs. At least for me that will never be a worry again. The window for kneading is so wide I have found that it is really not as big a factor as its made out to be.


The mixograph drawing I posted earlier is for bread flour. As you can see, there is a lot of tolerance until it breaks and with our little machine, they will break before the dough goes bad. For AP flour, it would be the same graph but imagine it squeezed horizontally so the time frame is shorter; specially for the tolerance window.

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2009, 04:23:46 AM »
Interesting.  So the O2 gets "eaten" quickly by the yeast and the Nitrogen hangs around as seed clouds for the CO2.  I guess when O2 is worked in faster than the yeast can deal with it we have the damaging type of oxidation where the carotenoids are destroyed.  That all makes sense, but I'm having trouble applying those theories to the doughs I make by hand without kneading.  I would have to think less air is incorporated, yet I can develop a great crumb

First of all, that image is making me hungry  ;D

In the context of high hydration doughs, you will find that hand kneading is most effective. The reason is like I pointed in point 6 that there is actually intelligence(you) handling the tricky dough that would escape the normal kneading machine mechanism. In the commercial scale, the diving arms are preferred for high hydration dough.

Now in your initial post in this thread you explained your procedure includes several folds of the dough, where I safely assume there are stretches also in order for the dough to fold. This stretch and fold practice is basically your kneading! You stretch and energy goes in and then fold to preserve it. This what creates tightness in the wet dough. Also, if you search the web for ciabatta recipes, you will find it's all about stretch&fold as the best way to "knead" it. The stretch&fold is also a great way to incorporate air into the dough as you fold in because your hands are very gentle on the dough and air bubbles are not forced out due to any squeezing.

Remember kneading is not necessarily a violent movement, squeezing or twisting of the dough. Depending on the dough type, it's whatever mechanical movement that can store energy in the gluten network and incorporate air.

Saad
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 04:29:29 AM by s00da »

Offline norma427

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2009, 07:58:11 AM »
I have been following this thread.  I still am confused about what really makes an airy crust.  There are so many opinions on what makes an airy crust.  Is it hand kneading, short kneading, long kneading, higher hydration, higher oven temperatures, longer fermentation times, temperatures of the finished dough, or combinations of everything for each dough?
Since I use a commercial mixer and want to try a higher hydration dough to get more airy crust do I just have to do experiments to see what will happen?
When I see all these great looking pizzas it makes me want to have an airy crust like that, too.
All great looking pizzas!  ;D
Thanks for all of your inputs.
Norma

Offline UnConundrum

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2009, 09:13:31 AM »
Saad,
     I pat the dough out instead of stretching, but yes, it is essentially kneading.  That said, the total time of folding is well less than 2 minutes for the entire process.  Pat, pat, pat, fold, fold, rotate, pat, pat, fold, fold, repeated twice after the first rest, and once after each of the next two rests.  At least in my particular situation, I tend to agree with Bill that the crumb assisted by the steam.  I can't refute the theory that some air is worked into my dough through the folding, but I can't imagine it comparing to the air introduced by a machine.  There has to be other factors at work.  All thought provoking.

     BTW, the method I used was proposed as a way to make very large doughs without machinery.  James was researching how a single bakery could produce enough bread to meet a town's needs in the middle ages.  I don't have the need or facilities for a 50# dough, but I have made doughs in excess of 15# without any difficulty.  I have no doubt it would work in a commercial setting.

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2009, 10:30:05 AM »
The air incorporated during kneading is of course not the main reason for the way your crumb looks. It is really a combination of many things but if we limit the discussion to kneading and hydration, try to think about it like this...The air you incorporate during kneading is essential to create space for the CO2 when released and thus provides expansion. So as long as your dough expands well during fermentation, it means that you had enough air incorporated. The more you knead, the more uniform shaped your bubbles would be relatively according to hydration. As for hydration, it will determine the size of the bubbles with appropriate oven spring since that water will eventually become steam.

Saad


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2009, 12:47:04 PM »
I still am confused about what really makes an airy crust.  There are so many opinions on what makes an airy crust.  Is it hand kneading, short kneading, long kneading, higher hydration, higher oven temperatures, longer fermentation times, temperatures of the finished dough, or combinations of everything for each dough?
Since I use a commercial mixer and want to try a higher hydration dough to get more airy crust do I just have to do experiments to see what will happen?
When I see all these great looking pizzas it makes me want to have an airy crust like that, too.

Norma,

Most of what you will read on this forum is with respect to what home pizza hobbyists do. And that is considerably different from what professionals do, mainly because of differences in dough making/management equipment and ovens. And the results will also be different. So, you have to be careful about trying to translate what may work well in a home setting to a commercial setting. The rules in both cases will be different, although there will obviously be some overlap of principles involved. But if you want to read what Tom Lehmann says about the subject of getting a more open and airy crumb, etc. in the context of a professional setting, see this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3292.msg27915/topicseen.html#msg27915. It will come as no surprise to anyone at this point that Tom holds true to his mantra of keeping the mixing time short, as noted in item 2 in the abovereferenced thread. Many of the points you mentioned in your post are also covered in Tom's list.

Peter

Offline pacoast

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2009, 02:12:44 AM »
I don't claim to be an expert, but I thought that crumb development was a fairly well understood aspect of baking. If you look at a decent baking textbook it will tell you that too little gluten development will give you a dense crumb because there isn't much structure to trap gas pockets. And too much gluten development yields a bready crust with even gas bubbles as the gluten is too strong to tear irregularly. So I'm not sure if we are disputing conventional wisdom or reinventing it?

The clearest explanation of this that I have seen is How baking works: Exploring the fundamentals of baking science, which has a chapter devoted to explaining what things affect gluten. That's not to say that it doesn't take practice or experimentation to juggle flour choice/kneading technique/kneading time/oven temperature & various other factors to achieve the right balance. I'm still looking for that balance with pizza dough, but I can say that I have mastered it with baguettes which are not all that dissimilar.

Some of the things that absolutely affect baguette crumb include; flour choice, mineral content (in water), hydration, kneading technique, air incorporation during kneading, kneading time, final dough temperature & oven deck temperature. Having screwed up each one of these at one point or another, I now know what I am aiming for & get consistently airy crumbs.

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Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2009, 07:43:39 AM »
I don't claim to be an expert, but I thought that crumb development was a fairly well understood aspect of baking. If you look at a decent baking textbook it will tell you that too little gluten development will give you a dense crumb because there isn't much structure to trap gas pockets. And too much gluten development yields a bready crust with even gas bubbles as the gluten is too strong to tear irregularly. So I'm not sure if we are disputing conventional wisdom or reinventing it?

The clearest explanation of this that I have seen is How baking works: Exploring the fundamentals of baking science, which has a chapter devoted to explaining what things affect gluten. That's not to say that it doesn't take practice or experimentation to juggle flour choice/kneading technique/kneading time/oven temperature & various other factors to achieve the right balance. I'm still looking for that balance with pizza dough, but I can say that I have mastered it with baguettes which are not all that dissimilar.

Some of the things that absolutely affect baguette crumb include; flour choice, mineral content (in water), hydration, kneading technique, air incorporation during kneading, kneading time, final dough temperature & oven deck temperature. Having screwed up each one of these at one point or another, I now know what I am aiming for & get consistently airy crumbs.

.

The reason I started this thread is because I haven't found much details on the forum regarding the gluten development, it's different stages and final result on the crumb structure. I'm not sure about the rest of the members but I found myself mixing/kneading using different times/speeds in trial&error until I found the pizza I liked. I have always known from Pete Tom's recommendation about slightly underkneading the dough but didn't really know how to apply it, when to stop? and what to aim for?

As you can see, after doing a lot of reading, I came to the conclusions that you seem to confirm which makes me happy. What I mostly wanted to understand are the characteristics of the dough going through mixing/kneading stages (relative to flour type and hydration). As you mentioned, such things are conventional wisdom in general baking and this is where I found the information also.

So in answer to your question, my personal answer will be that I just learned these facts after almost a whole year of pizza baking  ;D but I'm glad I did because it's much easier for me now to identify the stages of the dough and trouble shoot related problems.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 07:46:35 AM by s00da »

Offline pacoast

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2009, 11:39:53 AM »
S00da, you may find the chapter on gluten development that I was referring to interesting, even if you've figured much of it out already. I was able to find most of it online here.

.

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2009, 11:46:10 AM »
Thanks! I'll make sure I read that thoroughly. It never hurts to confirm the things I learned from other sources.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2009, 12:21:29 PM »
Recently, in furtherance of the objectives of this thread, I decided to make a long-kneaded version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough. In this case, I use a final knead of 20 minutes, using speed 2 of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. That was for a dough ball weight of about 15.4 ounces, so I would consider the 20-minute knead time to be quite extended for that amount of dough. The dough formulation that I used was the following one as prepared using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165%):
268.46 g  |  9.47 oz | 0.59 lbs
166.45 g  |  5.87 oz | 0.37 lbs
0.67 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
4.7 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
2.68 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
442.96 g | 15.62 oz | 0.98 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.10; dough is for a single 14” pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

To prepare the dough, I started by combining the IDY and flour. I then added the water to the mixer bowl of my KitchenAid stand mixer, then the salt, which I stirred to dissolve, and finally the oil. I then gradually added the flour/IDY mixture to the mixer bowl and, using the flat beater attachment at stir speed, mixed the ingredients until they pulled away from the sides of the bowl, about 1-2 minutes. There was a little flour that did not get picked up by the flat beater attachment so I simply incorporated that loose flour into the dough mass by hand when I removed the flat beater attachment. I then secured the C-hook and kneaded the dough for 20 minutes at speed 2. The knead was continuous but for stopping the mixer twice because the dough ball had reformed into two balls that I had to rejoin. I added a bit of time back on the clock so that the dough was kneaded the full 20 minutes. The dough at both of those times was soft and smooth and malleable. At the end of the 20-minute knead time, the dough was still soft and smooth and malleable. I normally don’t use the windowpane test, but I did use it this time and the dough passed with flying colors. After lightly oiling the dough ball and placing two poppy seeds on the dough ball to monitor its progress during the course of fermentation, all in accordance with the technique as discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html, I placed the dough ball within its lidded storage container (a glass bowl) into the refrigerator. I should note that the water I used to make the dough was directly out of the refrigerator, at 48.2 degrees F, and that the finished dough temperature was 83.7 degrees F. Room temperature was around 82 degrees F.

I decided that I would use the dough once it doubled. For a Lehmann dough with the above formulation, that meant more than one day of cold fermentation. In fact, after the first day (24 hours), the dough had not risen visibly at all, based on the spacing of the two poppy seeds. After 48 hours, the dough had expanded by about 42%, and after 78 hours, by about 68%. Thereafter, the dough seemed to stabilize and not rise much more. So, after 96 hours, by which time the dough had risen by about 82% and was noticeably quite gassy (as evidenced by the multiplicity of small fermentation bubbles around the sides and bottom of the storage container), I decided to use the dough. I allowed the dough to warm up at room temperature for about 1 hour and then opened it up to form a skin (14”). The dough was very extensible and evidenced signs of excessive fermentation, but I did not have a problem forming it to the desired final size. After dressing the pizza in basic pepperoni style, I baked the pizza on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at around 525 degrees F. The pizza was baked on the stone for about 6 minutes, at which time I moved the pizza off of the stone to the topmost oven rack position where the pizza baked for another 2 minutes to get increased top crust browning.

It is always difficult to make much of an isolated experiment, but here are my observations. First, the dough skin itself, while more robust than many of my dough skins, was still “webby”. No doubt, the extended fermentation may have led at least in part to that result. Second, the finished crust had good oven spring but the rim of the crust was underbaked and “pasty” in places. That condition might have been avoided by using the dough sooner or by baking the pizza at a lower oven temperature for a longer time in order to drive out more of the moisture in the dough. The crumb away from the rim was quite normal, albeit breadlike from a softness standpoint, but not with a tight cell structure. It was open and airy. Third, the bottom of the finished crust was on the soft and chewy side, not crispy. Fourth, the color of the finished crust was a bit lighter than usual, perhaps reflecting a loss of residual sugar because of the extended fermentation. The crust flavors were good.

It is difficult to assign what role the long knead time may have had on the above characteristics and attributes. There were both positive and negative effects, some of which no doubt would have been different had I used the dough sooner. That suggests conducting a follow-up experiment but with a shorter window of fermentation, maybe a couple of days. I think it would also be useful to conduct an additional experiment in which the knead time in its totality, including the preliminary mixing time using the flat beater attachment, is kept as short as possible to better understand the effects of a very short knead time.

The photos below show the finished product.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2009, 12:26:13 PM »
And some slice pics...

Peter

Offline sabinoapizza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2009, 03:35:50 PM »

I have copied a very informative article on how a mixing method effects the characteristics of a crust.The article is written for bread bakers however it has applications for pizza dough.The source is San Francisco Baking Institute Newsletter Summer 20007, Volume 2



This is “Part Two” of my article on
How to Develop a Formula. Please
see our Winter 2007 newsletter
for “Part One.”
Choosing a Mixing Technique
Three main mixing techniques are available
to the baker: short mix, intensive mix and
improved mix. Different fi nal product characteristics will be
obtained depending on the technique you choose.
A. Short Mix
Using the short mix technique, the mixing of the dough generally happens only in fi rst speed. Consequently, the gluten will be underdeveloped and a long fermentation time, with a few punch and folds, is required to achieve the proper strength necessary to shape and proof the dough. As a direct result of
this combination (short mixing and long fermentation time)
the bread will have very creamy color (very limited dough
oxidation keeps the carotenoid pigments intact), highly
complex fl avor (long fermentation time) and an open and
irregular crumb structure (short mixing time.)
Volume will be somewhat penalized since the underdeveloped
gluten won’t be able to retain as much gas during fi nal
proofi ng. This technique can be used when the characteristics
of a hand mix bread need to be duplicated. However, due
to the lengthy fermentation process and the underdeveloped
gluten (making machinability diffi cult) this technique is not
suitable for high volume production.
B. Intensive Mix
With the intensive mix method, the dough is mixed to its full development creating a perfectly organized gluten structure. Because the dough is already strong enough, fi rst fermentation time can be shortened, making the dough very suitable for high speed production. However, due to the long mixing time, the crumb of the bread will be whiter (more oxidation is created) and not as visually appealing. Because of the short fi rst fermentation time, it is preferable to use a preferment in the formula or the fl avor of the bread will be bland and the shelf life shortened. The intensive mix technique creates breads with larger volume, fi ne cell structure (due to the perfectly organized gluten structure, which allows for even gas distribution and expansion during proofi ng and baking) and thin crust. C. Improved Mix
A combination of the short and intensive mix process, improved
mix technique is probably the most common mixing technique
used in artisan baking. The dough is mixed to the point where the gluten reaches about 75%-80% of its full development, leaving some space for fermentation activity to take place to complement the strength of the dough. The shorter mixing
time (compared to intensive mix) preserves the creaminess
of the crumb and the necessary fermentation time allows
aroma production and good shelf life for the fi nished product.
continued from page 1
continued on page 4
(3)
The cell structure of the crumb will be open and irregular (not as much as with the short mix technique, but much more than with the intensive mix technique.) Because of the better gluten development during mixing, the improved mix technique achieves dough with good machinability properties. For optimum dough and bread characteristics, this method can also be complemented with the use of
a preferment.
D. Double Hydration Technique
The growing demand for breads that are moist and dense inside with large and open cell structure (such as Ciabatta) has triggered the development of the double hydration technique. “Ciabatta-style” bread characteristics are usually achieved by mixing highly hydrated and well developed soft dough. The mixing of this type of dough can be obtained using two techniques.
The first technique is to add all the water at once at the beginning of the mixing process, and mix the dough to complete development. But in this case, to obtain a well-developed gluten structure, the mixing must be sufficiently long, as the extra water will interfere with proper gluten formation. Another option is to keep the mixing time short and achieve dough development with a series of punch and fold.
The first option is not ideal for product quality since long mixing time generates a lot of oxidation (therefore, a loss of flavor) and the second option is not particularly suitable for high volume production since folding large amounts of dough is not very efficient.
The newer technique—double hydration—is to add the water two times into the dough. The main advantage of this process is to create very soft dough with well-developed gluten structure, great machinability properties and good strength, with minimum mixing time to avoid over-oxidation of the dough. First the dough is mixed with only a portion of the total water of the formula to reach a medium/soft consistency. Depending on the flour and the type of preferment used, the water proportion usually represents 60% to 70% of the flour in the final dough.
The goal is to properly hydrate the flour components without getting an excess of “free” water or water not fixed by any flour components. Molecules of free water impede gluten bonding and gluten structure formation, leading to longer mixing time and more dough oxidation. Once the medium/soft consistency has been reached, the dough is mixed to obtain an improved mix gluten structure. Then, the remaining part of the water is added and the mixing continues until the water is perfectly incorporated into the dough.
As with butter in brioche dough, properly developed gluten can very easily take an extra “load” of ingredients or water. The final result is a dough with a very soft consistency but not sticky, and a well-developed gluten
that won’t require any folding during the first fermentation time. However, because of the soft consistency, the dough after mixing has an excess of extensibility, and requires some fermentation time to reestablish a good balance in strength. Obviously, this fermentation time is a positive thing for the quality of the bread as some gas and acidity will be developed, improving the cell structure of the finished product as well as its flavor and shelf life. After the first fermentation, because of its strength and its property of not being sticky, the dough can be processed by hand, and also has the characteristics required to run perfectly through a stress-free dividing and molding line.
Once bakers have mastered these well- established mixing techniques, they can easily create their own mixing process according to the desired type of bread, the equipment available at the bakery, or production requirements.
For example, a compromise between short mix and improved mix technique could be developed. To achieve this, it becomes important to modify the formula. If the mixing time is reduced, the first fermentation time must be increased to complement the development of the gluten structure.
The growing demand for breads that are moist and dense inside with large and open cell structure (such as Ciabatta) has triggered the development of the double hydration technique.
continued from page 3
continued on page 5
(4)
At this point, it becomes necessary to decrease the amount of yeast in the formula to control the fermentation activity. Water content should also be increased to counter the fact that acidity increases strength and penalizes extensibility of the dough after the first fermentation. Starting with a well-hydrated dough, which is adequately extensible, is necessary or machinability will be penalized. The possibilities are endless, but the baker must keep in mind that formula and process are
very interconnected and should be balanced carefully.
How long should the first
fermentation last?
The first fermentation time depends on the mixing technique used, and also on the type and proportion of preferment used in the formula. Intensive mixing generates dough with fully developed gluten structure. This type of technique is necessary when tight and even cell structure is required. As a result of the long mixing time, the dough is strong enough after mixing. Allowing the dough to ferment after mixing would add some strength (due to the acidity production) and might create dough very difficult to work with (lack of extensibility.) However, not having sufficient fermentation time will penalize flavor and shelf life. The only way to compensate is the use of preferment in the final dough.
Short mixing time will automatically require longer first fermentation time to achieve proper dough development. The carbon dioxide naturally generated during the first fermentation will stretch the gluten, while the acidity will reinforce the bounding of the structure. These two combined actions will improve the strength of the dough.
Some folds might be necessary if the gluten is deliberately left very underdeveloped at the end of mixing time. The folding will also improve the gluten structure by creating more bonds (a little bit like the hook of the mixer will do but in a much more gentle way.) The very positive aspect of having a long first fermentation is the aroma development and increase in shelf life. Both of these qualities are obtained by some specific acids developed during advanced stages of the fermentation time.
When a production process doesn’t allow much time for a long first fermentation, the formula must be modified. To avoid penalizing final product quality by shortening the first fermentation, the baker must do before mixing what can’t be done after: a portion of the flour is incorporated into a preferment to allow acidity production to happen before mixing. Once this portion of pre-fermented flour is returned to the final mix, it will bring most of the benefits of the fermentation (strength of the dough, flavor and shelf life.) First fermentation can then be reduced without compromising final product quality.
When formulating, very precise numbers are difficult to calculate, but as an average, involving 20% of the flour weight into a preferment could allow the baker to cut down his first fermentation from two hours to one hour. The amount of yeast would have to be adjusted in order to get the same amount of gas production.
The dough can also be placed at lower temperature (around 40°F to 50°F) after mixing. This technique allows the baker to delay the first fermentation time to accommodate production requirements. For example, the baker may mix the dough at the end of the production day and place it in the cooler until the next day. The dough is then ready to be divided as soon as the baker arrives at the bakery. This technique allows the baker to reduce night shift hours and still have some bread ready to bake early in the morning. The other advantage is that some of the dough can be divided first thing in the morning and the rest later in the day to offer fresh bread to customers without having to mix several times during the day. When using this technique, a very low amount of preferment is generally used in the formula.
The long first fermentation at low temperature naturally develops enough acidity to improve dough characteristics and bread qualities. Using too much preferment can negatively affect the gluten structure, as too much enzymatic activity and dough degradation can happen during the pre-fermentation process and the long first fermentation.
The possibilities are endless, but the baker must keep in mind that formula and process are very interconnected and should be balanced carefully.



Sabino


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2009, 04:25:49 PM »
I think it would also be useful to conduct an additional experiment in which the knead time in its totality, including the preliminary mixing time using the flat beater attachment, is kept as short as possible to better understand the effects of a very short knead time.

I decided to strike while the iron is hot and to make another Lehmann NY style dough but with a very short total mix/knead time. I used the same dough formulation as described in Reply 39 and also the same preparation methods but for the mix and knead times. The mix time, using the flat beater attachment at stir speed, was a bit over one minute; the succeeding knead time, using the C-hook at speed 2, was about 3 1/2 minutes. So the total mix/knead time was just under 5 minutes. The final dough was a bit stickier than the last dough but a fair amount of that stickiness disappeared as I shaped the dough into a round ball to go into its storage container. The total time elapsed from the point where I started the dough preparation to the point where the dough went into the refrigerator (after weighing and adjusting the dough weight, oiling the dough ball, and placing the poppy seeds on the dough ball) was around 10 minutes. The dough ball went into the refrigerator at almost exactly the same time of day as the last dough and was placed in the same spot in the refrigerator.

I plan to play things by ear this time since the latest dough ball is not exactly the same as the last one because of the slightly different water temperature (46.3 degrees F versus 48.2 degrees F for the last dough ball) and the lower finished dough temperature (78.5 degrees F versus 86.4 degrees F for the last dough ball). Also, the fermentation will be somewhat different because of the less developed gluten structure (because of the short knead time) and the lessened capacity of the gluten structure to retain the gases of fermentation.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2009, 04:49:09 PM »
I have copied a very informative article on how a mixing method effects the characteristics of a crust.The article is written for bread bakers however it has applications for pizza dough.The source is San Francisco Baking Institute Newsletter Summer 20007, Volume 2

Sabino,

I agree that the article you posted in an informative one. However, it seems to me that what one should consider when reading articles like that is that the form factor for pizza dough is different from that of bread dough. A bread dough, even some of the flatter and super-hydrated ones, have a fair amount of height and volume. By contrast, a pizza skin, with a few exceptions (e.g., proofed Sicilian doughs), is quite thin. Also, if the pizza is baked at a very high oven temperature on a hot stone surface, it is possible for the finished crumb to have an open and airy cellular structure rather than a tight one. That may help explain the open and airy crusts that member ThunderStik has achieved (e.g., see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9061.msg78379.html#msg78379) even using what one would consider highly extended knead times. Even my last pizza exhibited an open and airy crumb--maybe not as much as ThunderStik's pizza crusts but he was using a higher oven temperature than I (hence a greater oven spring) along with a cast iron pan on an upper rack position.

Peter

Offline sabinoapizza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2009, 05:27:04 PM »
Sabino,
Hi Pete-zza I understand the difference in procedures for making pizza dough and bread dough.I am a trained baker who has applied what I have learned in baking bread to pizza.My experience with pizza dough that is mixed a short period of time and has longer fermentation is that the crumb usually has a more open structure.In addition my experience with dough where the gluten is fully developed has a a tighter crumb.I realize there are other factors that effect the structure of the dough.I have found that my undermixed dough have good oven spring due to using a flour of higher protein.The above article is not the the bible on creating crust characteristic one likes in a pizza.My point is that by applying the techniques in the above article coupled with other procedures can help one to achieve a pizza with desired flavor and structure.
Sabino
Sabino

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2009, 06:31:11 PM »
Sabino,

We have quite a few members who have come to pizza making from the bread side. I personally did not. Before I found this forum, I spent an awful lot of time reading about pizza making at the PMQ website, which is devoted almost exclusively to commercial pizza making. Tom Lehmann has attempted from time to time to introduce artisanal principles taken from the bread world, mainly the use of preferments based on commercial yeast, but his ideas on that front have not attracted much interest at the PMQ Think Tank, most likely because they are not easy to implement and use in a commercial pizza operation. On this forum, on the other hand, there is great interest in bread making principles and their possible application to pizza making, including use of autolyse and similar rest periods, natural starters/preferments, commercially leavened preferments, stretch and fold, and so on. Many of these principles are implicated in one way or another, directly or indirectly, in the strength and development of the gluten structure, knead times, and the fermentation process. Ultimately it comes down to how much time and effort one is willing to devote to incorporating these principles in their pizza making in order to achieve certain desired end results.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2009, 09:26:26 AM »
Pete, I'm jealous that you're conducting the experiments that I've been planning  >:( but I'm sure you will be able to draw better conclusion with your experience.

From your experiment, I think the most noticeable effect of the extended knead time was the slow rising of the dough during fermentation that is most likely a cause of the well developed gluten network. Looking at the cross section of the slice made me think about how forming the pizza into a disk changes things as air is pushed from the center all the way to the rim. Added to that there are no toppings on the rim of course. So, as you mentioned; it's hard to draw conclusions from this isolated experiment. Comparing to a similar dough formulation with different knead time will certainly give a better result.

My plan for this experiment is to make dough enough for 3 pizzas and during kneading, I would remove an amount of dough at 5 minutes, 15 minutes and the remaining at 25 minutes. This way I can compare different mixing times on the same exact dough formulation.

Can't wait for you next experiment results.

Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2009, 10:18:15 AM »
My plan for this experiment is to make dough enough for 3 pizzas and during kneading, I would remove an amount of dough at 5 minutes, 15 minutes and the remaining at 25 minutes. This way I can compare different mixing times on the same exact dough formulation.

Saad,

That is actually a better, more scientific way to do it than I did. Also, your 15-minute dough will give you data in the middle.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2009, 12:53:25 PM »
Sabino, thanks for posting this useful information. The following part caught my eye and couldn't figure it out...

(4)
At this point, it becomes necessary to decrease the amount of yeast in the formula to control the fermentation activity. Water content should also be increased to counter the fact that acidity increases strength and penalizes extensibility of the dough after the first fermentation. Starting with a well-hydrated dough, which is adequately extensible, is necessary or machinability will be penalized. The possibilities are endless, but the baker must keep in mind that formula and process are
very interconnected and should be balanced carefully.
How long should the first
fermentation last?
The first fermentation time depends on the mixing technique used, and also on the type and proportion of preferment used in the formula. Intensive mixing generates dough with fully developed gluten structure. This type of technique is necessary when tight and even cell structure is required. As a result of the long mixing time, the dough is strong enough after mixing. Allowing the dough to ferment after mixing would add some strength (due to the acidity production) and might create dough very difficult to work with (lack of extensibility.) However, not having sufficient fermentation time will penalize flavor and shelf life. The only way to compensate is the use of preferment in the final dough.
Short mixing time will automatically require longer first fermentation time to achieve proper dough development. The carbon dioxide naturally generated during the first fermentation will stretch the gluten, while the acidity will reinforce the bounding of the structure. These two combined actions will improve the strength of the dough.

My current knowledge of long fermentation times with little yeast is that such doughs will end up being very extensible. Thus, the dough is approached with minimizing the hydration to end up with a dough that is easy to handle. While what you posted says the opposite....help  ???

I must add that I have been experimenting with extending fermentation time using the Ischia. My usual dough with the Ischia is fermented for 15 hours and then proofed for 4 hours. In an attempt to stretch the fermentation to 24 hours, I decreased the amount of the starter used and it resulted in a less extensible dough that wasn't easy to stretch. Also, the type of decrease in extensibility was not related to an increase in elasticity. The dough doesn't stretch back when pulled but it wasn't extensible as I'm used to it. This was for the Ischia starter but I didn't notice the same behavior when using IDY.

Saad
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 01:04:00 PM by s00da »

Offline UnConundrum

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2009, 08:52:44 PM »
Saad,
     How much Ischia do you normally use as a percentage of flour?  I'm guessing about 3%?