Author Topic: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading  (Read 16066 times)

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Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2009, 09:42:56 PM »
Dough #3 (Over-kneaded)

Baking Stone temperature = 567.5 F

Handling: Handling and stretch the dough was similar to Dough #2 as it need some assistance. What I noticed though was this dough was much smoother. While it was evident that it was puffy, the outer shell of the dough felt firmer and not as weak as Dough #2 and it didn't allow bubbles to be visible. As I pressed with my fingers in the center, it springs back the indents confidently unlike Dough #2 which was friendly.
Skin bubbles: The skin had almost no bubbles, it was very smooth.
Oven Spring: The least oven spring. This is the beauty of this experiment. This is also evident from the slightly less top browning compared to Dough #1.
Chewiness: It was chewy but not as much as Dough #1 and the chewiness was somehow, bouncy?. Also, this pizza had a distinctive bite which I would describe being springy.
Flavor: The pizza tasted something in the middle. Not dull like Dough #1 and yet not as good as Dough #2, it was confusing.

The oven-spring here, being the least and similar to Dough #1 while Dough #2 performed the best tells me that the gluten matrix was too tight to allow it. What gives me confidence to say that is the firmness of the dough as I stretched it to a skin while being puffy, I can feel the air inside well trapped.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:11:39 PM by s00da »


Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2009, 10:23:31 PM »
Going back to the post where I explained what I had learned from bread baking books, it seems somethings do apply here where others are hard to apply in the pizza world.

To me know, it is clear how kneading time for pizza dough effects the oven spring and the openness of the crumb.

An under-kneaded dough (Dough #1) has a weak gluten matrix but lacks oven spring and crumb openness due to the lack of air incorporated. Maybe extra fermentation time can help it where I remember that in sabino's post here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.msg79867.html#msg79867 . I think that the flavor of the crust/crumb showing signs of under-fermentation is an evidence for that.

The medium-kneaded dough (Dough #2) resulted in the pizza with the best oven spring and the most open crumb. To me it demonstrates more air incorporation and a not too firm of a gluten matrix that allowed that result.

The over kneaded dough (Dough #3); while surely did not lack less air incorporation, it definitely didn't have much of an oven spring. Evident of the strong gluten matrix that did not allow it. The smoothness of the skin and the distinctive bite and chew were something I don't think I would like in my pizza.

Regarding the the regularity of the crumb, I was not able to detect any difference and I assume this is the thing that I cannot apply to the pizza world. I could be wrong but I think that the stretching to a skin and pushing the air to the edges, deforms the structure of the air bubbles inside.

If I had to classify the 3 doughs according to the stages of dough development in the mixer, I would say that:

Dough #1 is severely underkneaded
Dough #2 is slightly underkneaded
Dough #3 is well kneaded or closer to the top edge of the mixograph (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.msg79564.html#msg79564) because if it was over kneaded as I classified it throughout my experiment, the gluten matrix would again start to weaken and the end result might be similar to the pizza produced from Dough #2 but that did not happen

While this experiment was not to find the best pizza dough in general, I believe that I would pick the characteristics of Dough #2. Also, it is worth it to experiment with allowing Dough #1 to ferment for a longer time and allow more gas production that could potentially result in more crumb openness.

Feedback is greatly appreciated...

Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2009, 10:28:14 PM »
Saad,

Thank you for running the experiments and posting your results.

Can you tell us how long the three doughs were cold fermented? I scanned your recent posts but did not see the fermentation time.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2009, 10:32:43 PM »
Pete, you are welcome.

All doughs were cold fermented for 48 hours as a stack in the fridge. During the fermentation I rearranged the stack twice to counter the effects of any bad temperature distribution. By the way, I have edited my posts a little so it might be worth it to quickly scan them again for extra
info.

Saad
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:34:17 PM by s00da »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2009, 12:26:38 PM »
Saad,

I went back and re-read your posts on the experiments you conducted on the three dough balls.

For comparison purposes, I think that it was a good idea for both of us to use very similar dough formulations, dough weights, and baking methods, even though you used a gas oven and I used an electric oven. However, it is clear how difficult it is to conduct scientific experiments in a home setting. You would need three people with three identical mixers making three different dough balls with three different knead times and placing them into a separate cooler unit dedicated to only those three dough balls :). And, even then, you would have delays and possibly three different finished dough temperatures.

As I re-read your posts, I wondered whether Dough #3 would have performed better had it experienced a longer fermentation time. In my case with my overfermented dough, I think I went too far with the fermentation (four days) and perhaps would have gotten better results had I relied more on the actual condition of the dough (as reflected by the volume of fermentation bubbles). Maybe an extra day or two of fermentation time for your Dough #3 would have yielded a better performance for that dough. As you noted, when you poked Dough #3 with your fingers, the depressions disappeared promptly, which is a common sign of an underfermented dough. That apparently did not happen with Dough #2.

Despite the results we achieved, there is still the issue of the effects of a high oven temperature, as ThunderStik and Bill/SFNM (and possibly others) mentioned earlier in this thread.

What I have taken away from our experiments is that a long knead time can affect the fermentation of the dough and, in such a case, it may pay to watch the dough more closely from a volume expansion standpoint (which means using the poppy seeds in my case) and actual development of the dough from the standpoint of the amount of fermentation bubbles formed in the dough. In my case, I usually use transparent plastic or glass containers so it is easy to visually monitor the dough condition as it ferments. I also learned that a dough is fairly forgiving of long knead times and is hard to hurt, which comports with what Peter Reinhart has said in his book American Pie. However, as noted above, this may mean having to be mindful of the effects of the long knead times on the rate of fermentation.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2009, 12:58:45 PM »
Thank you for the feedback.

You are correct regarding the fermentation that it will help to develop a suitable dough to use for pizza. Which means that for each of the three doughs, a different fermentation time, temperature could have been used to make the doughs achieve similar results at the end. But then we must also consider the possible implications that could come along with the different fermentation procedures. Let's consider Dough #3 as you suggested; while I don't understand the effects of the extra oxidation this dough already received, but from what I read it is supposed to lower the qualities of the finished product. Also, while you suggest extra fermentation as a possible way to improve Dough #3, let's not forget about the effect of the protease enzyme, specially where the gluten matrix is more likely to have been damaged since it reached the peak of development.

By the way Pete, I didn't use my high temp. gas oven for this experiment. I actually used my electric oven here.

Now if we set fermentation aside and evaluate the outcome of this experiment, I think that the conclusion should be more focused on the effects of kneading time on the dough development. Looking at it this way, I think it is very safe to say that the "slightly underkneaded" dough will develop a better crust, crumb, flavor and handling properties at a faster rate provided all other variables being constant.

Saad
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 01:01:04 PM by s00da »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2009, 01:21:57 PM »
Saad,

Thanks for the clarification on the oven used. When you mentioned that you placed the stone on the oven floor, I thought you were using a gas oven.

You are correct about the possible effects of protease enzymes on the gluten structure. When I posted my results, I noted that effect with my overkneaded dough. I suspected that there was gluten degradation because of all of the fermentation bubbles at the bottom of the storage container, which typically accompany an overproofed dough with gluten damage.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 02:27:26 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2009, 02:24:18 PM »
While I'm sure our experiments aren't enough to make a definite guide line for dough kneading recommendation, I believe they will aid the more dedicated of us to pay more attention to the dough characteristics and fine-tune the mixing procedures we use. For myself, I think that every now and then, I will throw a little twist to mixing/kneading when making my favorite recipes and see how that effects the outcome.

Now I think I should go back and start making my 18" NYs since I got some bread flour  :-D and when I think about it, I have some feeling now that I've been over-kneading the dough so I guess I will start there.

Saad
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 02:26:04 PM by s00da »


 

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