Author Topic: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?  (Read 1470 times)

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Offline Trogdor33

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Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« on: September 25, 2009, 12:28:53 PM »
My dough formula:

KABF           100.00%    553.07
Water   63.00%   348.43
ADY           0.50%   2.77
Salt           1.75%   9.68
EVOO           1.00%   5.53
Sugar           1.00%   5.53
BRM VWG   2.40%   13.27
Dry Milk   1.00%   5.53

I hydrated the yeast for 10 mins, combined 348g flour with all other ingredients but oil and remainder of flour with the paddle, then changed to the c-hook and added the rest of the flour (about the 2 mins specified by the recipe). I added the oil and mixed at low until it was absorbed and then kneaded with the hook for about 8 mins. I had to pull the dough off the hook maybe 5 times because it balled up too tight and wasn't being worked. Then I placed the balls directly into this container and refrigerated. The first picture is after I finished making them, the next is 24 hours later.

Those bubbles in the middle of the dough balls make me think that something is wrong. I normally don't notice these, but most of the doughs I have done before are more along the lines of a 67% hydration. Is this going to be a problem for me? If so, what did I do wrong and how can I fix it next time? I used ADY because I didn't have any IDY and added some VWG because I only had KABF.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 12:50:38 PM »
Trogdor33,

Another member recently reported a similar problem at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9313.msg80574.html#msg80574. As I noted there, if the dough is otherwise firm to the touch, there is unlikely to be any ill effects from the bubbling. Looking at the second photo, it seems like the dough surrounding the bubbles is still firm. I think I would just pinch the bubbles to deflate them. It is odd, however, that both dough balls ended up with bubbles. Looking at your dough formulation, I don't see anything there to suggest the bubbling problem you experienced. The combination of KABF and VWG does reduce the hydration a bit, to about 61.5%, but that is a value that is very workable for the KABF. I checked your KABF and VWG amounts at the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, and the total protein content is about 14.2%, which is entirely in order.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 09:05:11 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline s00da

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2009, 04:09:29 PM »
The two dough balls being identical in the way the bubbles are formed cannot be a coincidence. I suspect it could be due to the way the balls were formed. I remember when I form fermented dough for proofing, the more tight and big-bubble free they are, the easier it is to shape the dough later. I also noticed that the existence of big bubbles will create weak spots when opening the dough to a skin.

Saad

Offline jeff v

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 08:38:55 PM »
The two dough balls being identical in the way the bubbles are formed cannot be a coincidence. I suspect it could be due to the way the balls were formed.
[/quote[

I agree. Sounds like an airbubble was trapped in there.
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline Trogdor33

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2009, 10:15:23 PM »
Well, couldn't wait until saturday. I have been spending too much time on this forum getting pizza lust, so I decided to just bake me a pie tonight. I was very pleased with how it turned out, especially considering how good the sauce from my homegrown san marzanos was. The bubbles did leave some small indents, but they did not turn into a weak spot in the skin. This dough handled better than any I have ever made before. It could largely be because I have always worked with the dough straight out of the fridge.

Anyways, since the pizza didn't get done until 8 and I usually eat at 5, I wasn't patient enough to take a shot of it all in one piece before devouring it.

I put on 6oz of sauce, spread fresh shredded basil and oregano over it and then 10oz of my cheese blend and baked it at 550 for 8 minutes on my pre-heated fibrament stone. I think I floured my peel too much because there was quite a bit of flour left over. The bottom crust was also too dark and tough for my taste although not burnt. Would lowering the oven temp to say 450 and baking a bit longer fix that?

BTW, this was my first attempt at the lehmann crust. I see now why everyone likes it so much.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 10:21:43 PM by Trogdor33 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2009, 11:02:13 PM »
Trogdor33,

I personally would be inclined to leave out the dry milk to see if that helps cut down on the darkening of the crust. That would leave you with 1% sugar, which should be safe with the pizza stone. If you feel strongly about keeping the dry milk, I think I would still bake at the higher oven temperature, to get the optimum oven spring, but I would move the pizza off of the stone to an upper rack position once the bottom crust color is as you like it. Alternatively, you might be able to slide a pizza screen or two between the pizza and the stone toward the middle or end of the bake to slow down the bottom crust browning.

Most pizza operators who specialize in the NY style bake in the 450-500 degree F range but they use little or no sugar in their dough and their deck ovens do a better job than a pizza stone in a home oven. If the pizza is baked too long at the lower oven temperature, you may end up with an overly crispy and chewy crust as the moisture is increasingly evaporated out of the crust. A fast bake at high oven temperature helps retain the moisture and produce a softer crust and crumb. However, the bake time has to be long enough to be sure that the pizza is completely baked and does not have unbaked or "pasty" areas in the crust.

Your pizza does look tasty. Congratulations on a job well done. From the photos, it also looks like you had some nice fermentation blisters on the rim of the pizza. Out of curiosity, did you measure the water temperature and the finished dough temperature? Also, did you let the dough balls sit at room temperature at all before placing them into the refrigerator?

Peter
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 11:09:10 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Trogdor33

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 12:09:20 AM »
Peter,

The only reason I put the dry milk in there was to get the rim nice and brown like it was. Are the fermentation blisters you are talking about the very small white ones on the crust? Those have been eluding me for quite some time and I was excited when I saw them forming.

My digital thermometer broke just before I was ready to take the water temp, but I can tell by feel when it gets near 105-115 just because that's how warm I make the water any time I use ADY in any sort of recipe. I didn't measure the finished dough temp (although I plan on it next time when I get a new battery for my thermometer) and I put it straight into the fridge after I formed the balls.

I will try your advice about moving the pizza to the top rack tomorrow when I use my other dough ball.

Thanks for the advice.

-Joe
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 12:20:29 AM »
Joe,

The recommended method for rehydrating ADY is to use water that is four or five times the weight of the ADY, at around 105 degrees F, for about 10 minutes. The rest of the water should be on the cool side so that the finished dough temperature does not get too high and speed up the fermentation process more than desired.

Yes, the blisters I was referring to are the small white ones on the rim. They often tend to show up mysteriously but are usually associated with a dough that has undergone significant fermentation. It is possible that in your case, if you used all of the water at about 105-115 degrees F, that the finished dough temperature was on the high side and jump started the fermentation process. Whether that was behind the bubbles in the dough balls is hard to say. You might have to repeat your recipe to see if the problem reoccurs.

Peter

Offline Trogdor33

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2009, 11:38:03 AM »
Peter,

By "on the cool side" do you mean room temp? Tap temp? This is the first time I rehydrated the yeast separate from the rest of the water and salt, yeast, sugar, so by instinct I heated up all the water.

Are the blisters considered a problem? I had seen them on pizzeria pizzas so often I figured they were normal and desirable.

Would I be better off shooting for a lower final dough temp or just reducing my % yeast if over fermentation turns up as the problem?

-Joe
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2009, 12:19:31 PM »
Joe,

I was unavoidably a bit vague when I used the expression "on the cool side" because it depends where you live and the temperature where you are making the dough. Where I live in Texas, and especially in the hot summers, if I am trying to achieve a finished dough temperature of, say, 70-75 degrees F, I will usually need to use water that is cold right out of the refrigerator. If I lived in Canada in the winter, I would have to warm up the water to get the same finished dough temperature. There are several factors that are involved in achieving a particular finished dough temperature: the room temperature, the flour temperature, the frictional heat added by the mixer (which varies from one mixer brand and style to another), mixer attachments used, mixer speed(s), mixer time(s), dough batch sizes, whether preferments are used, whether autolyse and similar rest periods are used, and whether other delays are introduced intentionally or unintentionally into the dough making process.

What some pizza operators do is to calculate the water temperature needed to achieve a finished dough temperature. In some cases, they use charts to do this. You can read about this procedure at Reply 41 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg73486/topicseen.html#msg73486 (including the link to the Lehmann article). I have found that the methods described in Reply 41 and in the Lehmann article seem to work best for a straight dough, and for doughs that are pretty much the same from batch to batch, as is usually the case in a commercial setting. It is tougher in a home setting where we change the variables much more often.

With respect to the blisters, I personally like them. To the extent that they are produced because of long fermentation, they are usually a good sign that the crust will have good flavors and aromas, because of the multitude of fermentation byproducts that are produced during long fermentation and that are responsible for those effects.

As between changing the amount of yeast and controlling the water temperature, my first preference is to adjust the water temperature to get the desired finished dough temperature (75-80 degrees F when a standard home refrigerator is to be used). In a commercial setting, that is the usual method, especially if low skilled labor is used to make the dough. However, in a home setting, in addition to adjusting water temperature, I will often use different amounts of yeast for summer and winter applications.

Peter


Offline Trogdor33

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 02:43:31 PM »
Peter,

I read your post and Lehmann's article. Do you have an approximate FF I can use for the entry level kitchen aid mixer? I will try next time to get the finished balls between 80-85 and see if that makes a difference.

Following your suggestions about moving the pizza to the top rack made a difference this time. I baked at 550 on the stone for 5 minutes and on the top rack for 3. Everything else was the same except I used a little more pepperoni and more shredded basil and oregano.

I think you are right about getting rid of the dry milk. I am going to try without it in my next dough batch. This crust is still coming out a bit too chewy. I might up my hydration a little bit to maybe 65 and sift the flour.

As for the fermentation time, I didn't notice any change in taste from the one I made yesterday. The dough yesterday actually worked a bit easier than today's. I only let it sit out 2 hrs today instead of 2 1/2 yesterday though. It was also cooler weather today (which made for a lot less discomfort after running a 550 oven for an hour).
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Is this going to be a problem for my dough?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 03:31:50 PM »
Joe,

I have a basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook and I use around 12 degrees F as the friction factor for the dough batch size I usually make (typically under 22 ounces), using only the stir and 2 speeds. As you may have noted in the materials I referenced, if you make a batch of dough and measure all of your temperatures (actual water temperature, room temperature, flour temperature, and finished dough temperature), you should be able to come up with a rough friction factor for your mixer. You may need to do a few dough batches to get a useful average for your purposes. For finished dough temperature, I would shoot for a range of 75-80 degrees F. Pizza operators are advised to use a range of 80-85 degrees F but that is because they use commercial coolers, which run several degrees cooler than a standard home refrigerator. The hardest dough to get into the desired range is a hand kneaded dough. In the summer, no matter what water temperature I use, it is hard to get the finished dough temperature in the 75-80 degrees F range. The dough warms up fairly quickly during the roughly 10 minutes of hand kneading time. That has taught me to work fast when I prepare the dough and get the dough into the refrigerator as quickly as possible.

In due course, you will learn from experience what water temperature works best for the time of year. It will be almost impossible to get the exact desired finished dough temperature. There are just too many variables at work. That is why I view the calculations as just a guide to get you into the ballpark.

Peter


 

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