New Molino Caputo Website

[ERASMO]

http://www.molinocaputo.it/

[BurntEdges]

I've visited the website previously, but never noticed their pizza dough recipe.  Nicely detailed including fermenting and shaping instructions.  Here's the ingredients:

1700 to 1800 g  flour
1000g water
3 to 4 g  Fresh Yeast
50 to 55 g  Sea Salt

I used our dough calculator and came up with the following (for quantities given in a range, I averaged them):

Flour (100%):       1750.09 g  |  61.73 oz | 3.86 lbs
Water (57.14%):       1000 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs
CY (.2%):                   3.5 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs |
Salt (3%):                 52.5 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs | 10.94 tsp | 3.65 tbsp
Total (160.34%):     2806.1 g | 98.98 oz | 6.19 lbs | TF = N/A

I used Cake Yeast for fresh yeast, is that correct?   How do you convert fresh yeast to IDY (how much IDY for this recipe)?

Anyway,  "Melt" salt in water, then add flour and yeast.  Recipe calls for a 12 to 14 minute knead, followed by 20 minutes rest, then divided & balled.  (250 g ball for a 12" pizza).  Room temp rise for 8 to 12 hours, then ready for use.

To view the recipe directly, click on the above link, choose your language, click on chef's hat for recipes, and the first one that comes up it for pizza dough.

Somehow I thought that their hydration rate would have been in the 60's  ? 

[Pete-zza]

I used Cake Yeast for fresh yeast, is that correct?   How do you convert fresh yeast to IDY (how much IDY for this recipe)?

BurntEdges,

You are correct. Cake yeast and fresh yeast are the same. Sometimes cake yeast is also called wet yeast or compressed yeast. They are all the same. 

To convert cake yeast to IDY, you use one third of the weight of the cake yeast. That was the conversion factor that Tom Lehmann used for years. More recently, he seems to have switched from one-third to 40%. Some bakers have used the latter figure for years. I personally use the one-third figure. Technically, when you switch from cake yeast to a dry form of yeast, either ADY or IDY, you should add the difference in the yeast weights from the formula water to compensate for the water in the cake yeast. Otherwise, the total dough weight will change. So, if we want to keep the total dough weight the same, as well as the weights of the formula flour and salt, the modified dough formulation looks like this (using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html):

Flour (100%): Water (57.2762%): IDY (0.06667%): Salt (3%): Total (160.34287%):

1750 g  |  61.73 oz | 3.86 lbs 1002.33 g  |  35.36 oz | 2.21 lbs 1.17 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 52.5 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs | 9.41 tsp | 3.14 tbsp 2806 g | 98.98 oz | 6.19 lbs | TF = N/A

As you can see, the hydration figure changes a bit, but the change is small enough to be ignored for all practical purposes.

Peter

[BurntEdges]

Yes, thanks Peter.  Good point regarding the adjustment to the water to compensate for it's loss when substituting IDY. 

[rsimon719]

I think it is funny they say to use "8 to 10 fingers (excluding the thumbs)" to pat out the pizza.. I wonder who had 10 fingers without their thumbs!?! Must be the 6 fingered guy they had working for them. 

[pcampbell]

Very high on the salt huh...... I don't think I've ever done one with salt that high.  How does it affect things?

[Matthew]

Very high on the salt huh...... I don't think I've ever done one with salt that high.  How does it affect things?

Not high at all, I always use 3%.  2.5-3% is typically the norm.

Matt

[Pete-zza]

Very high on the salt huh...... I don't think I've ever done one with salt that high.  How does it affect things?

Patrick,

I agree but high salt levels are often used in commercial Neapolitan summertime room-temperature fermentations to slow down the fermentation process. That helps keep the dough within the window of usability of the dough, which is important for a pizza operator with fixed business hours. In the winter, the reverse is often done, that is, the salt quantity is reduced to speed up the fermentation process. Of course, there are corollary adjustments that can also be used, such as increasing or decreasing the yeast quantity (or Crisceto), water temperature and hydration.

Peter

[BurntEdges]

I think it is funny they say to use "8 to 10 fingers (excluding the thumbs)" to pat out the pizza 

I had to check the recipe to see how I missed that.  It says "with 8 of the 10 fingers (excluding the thumbs)".

Very high on the salt huh...... I don't think I've ever done one with salt that high.  How does it affect things?

Very good primer here on salt from King Arthur Flour http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html
It's surprising in how many ways salt impacts the dough. 

I agree with pc that the salt is high.  In line with the King Arthur publication I always use around 1.8%, for both fermentation purposes and for taste.  As far as taste, a lot of salt is layered into a pizza when you consider the salt content in the cheese, sauce, and toppings.  To add more salt than necessary in the dough just compounds the problem for me.  But as matters of taste go, if you like a lot of salt then have at it.  For fermentation, I would prefer to decrease the salt, and then adjust the yeast  or temperature for an 8 to 12 hour rise. 

Any thoughts on the 57% hydration  -  seems low for a dough intended for use in a high temp WFO? 

[Pete-zza]

Any thoughts on the 57% hydration  -  seems low for a dough intended for use in a high temp WFO? 

BurntEdges,

As you can see from Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328/topicseen.html#msg25328, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour has a rated absorption value of 55-57%. So, the recipe doesn't appear to be out of line.

Peter

[ERASMO]

Pete
     I have a question about the Caputo websites formulation crust results.  I have been using the Forno Bravo VPN dough recipe which has a 65% hydration level. I have noticed alot of the Naples pizza prep. videos you see online show a stiffer dough.  I wanted to find out what the lower hydration level would do to my finished product.  I am cooking in a wood fired oven with a floor temp. of 700-800 degrees.

Thanks

[Pete-zza]

ERASMO,

Since my use of the 00 flours has been solely with respect to a standard home oven, there are many others who are far more qualified than I to answer your question in the context of a WFO. However, it seems to me that the use of low hydration 00 doughs has been common in Naples for some time. For example, see the dough formulation given at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm. That dough formulation has been around for quite a few years and the hydration used is 53% (it is actually a bit higher when the water content of the compressed cake yeast is taken into account). The VPN doctrinaire document itself calls for a hydration range of 50-55% although I understand that that range is considered by many to be impractical and that even the members who created that document don't follow that guideline. More recently, I took a stab at converting a dough recipe said to be used by Roberto Caporuscio (Keste) to baker's percent format, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8876.msg77453.html#msg77453. As you will see there, the hydration is about 59%. Note also the high salt level of 3.5%.

Peter

[widespreadpizza]

Hey all,  I have been wanting to comment on this for a while now.  Ever since the recipe from the from the new caputo website was posted,  I have been lowering my hydration and bulk fermentation time, both with ADY and starter based doughs.  I am now making the pizzas I have been looking for,  for so long wothout all the guesswork of blending flours.  In fact,  I think they are better than where I was with flour blends.  I am still cooking at 90 seconds or below and cant believe the results and the crumb structure.  The dough definately doesnt seem like it is wet enough at first but as it matures it becomes perfect to work with while still being strong enough to to hold tons of gas.  I wouldn't have believed 57 percent was wet enough a year ago,  but it is,  at least for me.  I am sure that I will be between 57-59% for a long time.  I will post some pictures on this soon. Any thoughts? -marc

[jeff v]

Hey all,  I have been wanting to comment on this for a while now.  Ever since the recipe from the from the new caputo website was posted,  I have been lowering my hydration and bulk fermentation time, both with ADY and starter based doughs.  I am now making the pizzas I have been looking for,  for so long wothout all the guesswork of blending flours.  In fact,  I think they are better than where I was with flour blends.  I am still cooking at 90 seconds or below and cant believe the results and the crumb structure.  The dough definately doesnt seem like it is wet enough at first but as it matures it becomes perfect to work with while still being strong enough to to hold tons of gas.  I wouldn't have believed 57 percent was wet enough a year ago,  but it is,  at least for me.  I am sure that I will be between 57-59% for a long time.  I will post some pictures on this soon. Any thoughts? -marc

I am very interested to see your pics! I have been using 62% because I am baking around 800-850 (2stone not wfo), but am lowering to 59-60% on my next batch.

Jeff

[pacoast]

Interesting observations. It doesn't sound like enough water, but it's also hard to argue with success. I'm also looking forward to seeing your pictures.

.

[scott r]

Thats plenty of water to make a great pizza with caputo.  Dont forget that caputo doughs at any given hydration perform much like a normal flour with much more water in them. The hard part is finding a good home mixer that can handle a dryer dough like that without messing it up.

 Durning my visit to Naples, hydration of the dough that was being used is something I paid great attention to.   I had a number of amazing pizzas at places that didn't use high water content doughs, but you see both sides of the spectrum being used in the city.  Neapolitans seem to have a much more forgiving attitude to a very soft (and moist and floppy) dough.  Im not saying that pizzas made with a wet dough can't be amazing (because they can!), but at super high temperatures it seems like caputo really likes a lower hydration than what is often recommended, especially on this forum.   Outside of naples the pizzas cooked slower and many had a dryer dough....it was still awesome pizza!

[scott r]

I also forgot to mention that when you go with these lower hydration caputo doughs you can stretch out your fermentation time a bit longer.   I does a nice thing for the flavor and the texture is still great because the dough is more sturdy.  Your pies also bake faster, which changes many aspects of your final product, including how your cheese reacts.

[Matthew]

Hey all,  I have been wanting to comment on this for a while now.  Ever since the recipe from the from the new caputo website was posted,  I have been lowering my hydration and bulk fermentation time, both with ADY and starter based doughs.  I am now making the pizzas I have been looking for,  for so long wothout all the guesswork of blending flours.  In fact,  I think they are better than where I was with flour blends.  I am still cooking at 90 seconds or below and cant believe the results and the crumb structure.  The dough definately doesnt seem like it is wet enough at first but as it matures it becomes perfect to work with while still being strong enough to to hold tons of gas.  I wouldn't have believed 57 percent was wet enough a year ago,  but it is,  at least for me.  I am sure that I will be between 57-59% for a long time.  I will post some pictures on this soon. Any thoughts? -marc

I totally agree; I also found 57-59% has yielded the best results & makes the dough alot easier to handle.  The picture below was done @ about 58% hydration using a natural starter.

Matt

[JConk007]

I also use the Forno bravo and other recipies I had found for Caputoo 00 flour all around 65-68%! Though easy to spread out dough,  I all ways thought it a bit too wet. After reading this I will be going below 60% on my next batch. I do not use a starter, and I do plan to try Cake/fresh yeast and like a 58% hydration next batch. I am Using KA 500 w/ dough hook and autolyse. ? not the best choice but cant talk her into the diving arm mixer at this poiont  should I hand kneed? I allways thought  I needed a higher hydration to handle the higher heat?
I am trying to get to the Matthew looking pies with some more leoparding and I do a final room rise for at least 3 hrs before cooking
thanks all.
John

[jeff v]

I also forgot to mention that when you go with these lower hydration caputo doughs you can stretch out your fermentation time a bit longer.

That is great info, I was slowing coming to that conclusion on my own. Thanks Scott.

My biggest reason for the higher hydration was so the pizza didn't dry out at my current bake temps. I saw a video ( I believe Ed Levine talking about UPN) where he took a pie just cooked by Anthony and peeled apart the cornicione, and it was still moist looking while obviously being properly cooked. That was my target.

Jeff