NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[Meatballs]

Norma,

I know the tomato paste thing seems weird but, stick with it, I think it makes a very unique flavor.  My Mack's audience doesn't know how to make a pizza but they sure know how to erase one.  The Macks clone recipe you gave me earlier must have reminded them of something, not because of what they said, but because of how silent they were until we got down to the last piece and they could breathe again.  

My guess is, anybody who shoots sauce from a hose probably is not fussing over the freshest tomatoes they can have grown for them.  Also, to get it through the hose they can't have too many chunks/skins etc.  I know from beer brewing, lots of solids in a pumped substance can cause clogs by "bridging", can't have that.  Not to say that your paste recipe is cheap or bad, well, it may be cheap, but the flavor once baked is really good.  I think its valid to assume that Mack's is not into the highest priced/quality ingredients as much as they are at cutting cost corners and making a really tasty product...a valid business model.

Keep up the good work for the benefit of man kind.  This is a truly awesome style of pizza that breaks a lot of rules but delivers unique flavors in its unpretentiousness.

Ron

[norma427]

Norma,

I know the tomato paste thing seems weird but, stick with it, I think it makes a very unique flavor.  My Mack's audience doesn't know how to make a pizza but they sure know how to erase one.  The Macks clone recipe you gave me earlier must have reminded them of something, not because of what they said, but because of how silent they were until we got down to the last piece and they could breathe again.  

My guess is, anybody who shoots sauce from a hose probably is not fussing over the freshest tomatoes they can have grown for them.  Also, to get it through the hose they can't have too many chunks/skins etc.  I know from beer brewing, lots of solids in a pumped substance can cause clogs by "bridging", can't have that.  Not to say that your paste recipe is cheap or bad, well, it may be cheap, but the flavor once baked is really good.  I think its valid to assume that Mack's is not into the highest priced/quality ingredients as much as they are at cutting cost corners and making a really tasty product...a valid business model.

Keep up the good work for the benefit of man kind.  This is a truly awesome style of pizza that breaks a lot of rules but delivers unique flavors in its unpretentiousness.

Ron

Ron,

I knew what brand of sauce Mack’s was using and had used the real Gangi sauce Steve had bought for me, so I already knew what the raw sauce and the Gangi sauce baked on a pizza would taste like. The real Gangi sauce bought at Bova did cost 8.99 for a can.  I don’t know what kind of price Mack’s pays for their Gangi sauce, but would think it would be a lot cheaper from a distributor. I didn’t really like the taste of the real Gangi sauce, but when baked on the attempts at the Mack’s pizza, it changed for the better.  I want to experiment with WalMart’s brand of paste.  I think, but don’t know, it will almost taste like the Gangi sauce.  I watched the Gangi sauce come though those hoses at Mack’s and saw their wasn’t anything like tomato peels or anything that could obstruct the sauce coming though those hoses.  I only wanted to try my own regular paste with the ingredients I add to see if that would really change the flavor profile of the attempt I made yesterday.  It did really change the whole flavor profile of the whole pizza.

One of Mack’s piemen explained to me that the use of the hose is to save a couple seconds in preparing each pizza.  I can understand how the hose does save time. 

I also believe this is a awesome pizza if it is done right, but I am biased because I have enjoyed Mack’s pizza since I was young. 

I am glad your audience did enjoy your Mack’s pizzas.  That was a good sign that they devoured your pizza, until they could breathe again.  Congrats on making such a good pizza for your guests! 

There is so much to learn when trying to clone a pizza.  Although we might never get this Mack’s pizza exactly right, at least we will know that we tried.

Norma

[PiedPiper]

Just got back from bringing a M&M (M&M Too in Somers Point) pie home, there wasent much to see but i did noticed that the oven did fluctuate from 500 degrees - 513 degrees.  If anyone needs me to get another one and weight, let me know, im only 5 minutes away and here till the 29th

[matermark]

Just got back from bringing a M&M (M&M Too in Somers Point) pie home, there wasent much to see but i did noticed that the oven did fluctuate from 500 degrees - 513 degrees.  If anyone needs me to get another one and weight, let me know, im only 5 minutes away and here till the 29th

Just ask them exactly, "What types of cheeses are in the cheese blend used on the pizza?" and take note of what they say.

[norma427]

Just got back from bringing a M&M (M&M Too in Somers Point) pie home, there wasent much to see but i did noticed that the oven did fluctuate from 500 degrees - 513 degrees.  If anyone needs me to get another one and weight, let me know, im only 5 minutes away and here till the 29th

PiedPiper,

It would be helpful to have the weight of a baked M&M pizza.  I noticed too, when I went to Mack’s pizza the ovens did fluctuate. I wonder if M&M would sell you a dough ball.  I had asked at Mack’s and they wouldn’t sell me a dough ball. I wish I could be eating a M&M pizza.

Thanks for your help on this thread!

Norma

[PiedPiper]

PiedPiper,

It would be helpful to have the weight of a baked M&M pizza.  I noticed too, when I went to Mack’s pizza the ovens did fluctuate. I wonder if M&M would sell you a dough ball.  I had asked at Mack’s and they wouldn’t sell me a dough ball. I wish I could be eating a M&M pizza.

Thanks for your help on this thread!

Norma

Ill get another and weigh it (after all its all in the name of science  )  Ill even scrape the sauce/cheese off a slice and weigh the crust alone if it will help, just let me know.  Tonights pizza was grossly misshapen, still tasted the same though, (ill post a picture tomorrow)  dIts almost like M&M Too is a training store for their original up on the boardwalk.

Just ask them exactly, "What types of cheeses are in the cheese blend used on the pizza?" and take note of what they say.

Ill also ask about the cheese blend but im thinking this is not information they regularly give out.  Tonight tho i could swear it was a mozzarella/provolone/white cheddar blend

[Pete-zza]

Ill even scrape the sauce/cheese off a slice and weigh the crust alone if it will help, just let me know.

PiedPiper,

That will be helpful. Slices aren't exactly the same size but the extrapolation for the entire pizza should be helpful and might tell us whether we are in the ballpark with our numbers. The total baked weight will also be useful to know.

Thank you for offering to help.

Peter

[matermark]

Ill also ask about the cheese blend but im thinking this is not information they regularly give out.  Tonight tho i could swear it was a mozzarella/provolone/white cheddar blend

That's why it's important to say it exactly worded that way. I doubt they would reveal everything if it is a blend, but I'm pretty sure they said it's not a blend... or was that Norma? Someone said one thing, someone else said something else. Maybe we can get it from the horse's mouth this time.

[PiedPiper]

Sorry for the late pictures all, havent had much down time.  Ill try to get another pie to weigh either tonight or tomorrow when their A team should be on.  Here is the misshapen one I got on Wednesday, I also took a pic of a sauce-less portion of the cheese.  Hopefully this helps unwrap our cheese riddle!

[norma427]

PiedPiper,

Thanks for providing pictures of M&M pizza you had.     It looks good to me.

Norma

[PiedPiper]

Havent forgotten about yall, got a hot fresh M&M pizza in my hands and will have weights up tonight/tomorrow morning!

[PiedPiper]

Ok minds well post it up while its still fresh im my head  
Pizza & box 1095g (not real sure on this number since moms scale did not have the hold function) Since no hold function I decided to weigh it a slice at a time,  measurements usually varied by -1g/+1g (i will list the second weight i got as *g/*g)

Slice 1 - 119g/120g
Slice 2 - 106g
Slice 3 - 94g
Slice 4 - 93g
Slice 5 - 112g
Slice 6 - 130g
Slice 7 - 166g/167g
Slice 8 - 162
Crust Scraps from cutting: 3g
Whole Pie: 986g / 8 slices = Average of 123g Per Slice.

I then took the first Slice (119g/120g) because it was the most average slice and scrapped the cheese off.
Slice 1 Without cheese - 81g
Cheese scraps 37g/38g

Finally I weighed the box just to check our math
Box - 108g

*will add pictures later, all this thinking has made me hungry!!  *

Edit *i also forgot to ask about the cheese blend but from my view it looked like they were using white cheeder/provalone blend*

[norma427]

PiedPiper,

Thanks so much for doing all the weighing.  I can imagine you are hungry from all the weighing. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

PiedPiper,

I also thank you very much for your efforts and meticulous analysis of the slices and the whole pie. Based on what you posted, I went back through this thread to see how the clones that Norma and I made measured up against the weights you provided. The total baked weight that I used for my analysis was the 986 grams number you provided, which converts to 34.78 ounces. Of course, there is no way to know the unbaked weight of the Mack's pizza to be able to calculate the weight loss during baking. As clonists (my new term for Norma and me  ), Norma and I used different ovens than the Roto-Flex ovens, so the weight losses in our ovens will be different than the losses sustained in a Roto-Flex oven. Also, in my case, I used a combination of pizza screen and stone to be able to make 18" pizzas in my standard home oven. Until fairly recently, Norma made 16" pizzas (more on this below).

My best and closest clone from a weight standpoint was the one described starting at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472. For that pizza, I used a dough ball weight of 21 ounces, about 12 ounces of a cheese blend, and about 7 ounces of sauce. The total unbaked pizza weight was 38.84 ounces and the total baked weight was 33.93 ounces, for a loss during baking of about 14.5%. I believe that my numbers would have been closer to Mack's numbers if I was able to bake the pizza in a commercial oven, which should have shortened the total bake time and resulted in less loss during baking.

For Norma's pizzas to examine, I was most interested in the Mack clones that she baked in her commercial deck oven at market since her deck oven would produce results closer to the oven used at Mack's than my clones baked in a standard home oven. Two of Norma's Mack's clones that I found to analyze are the ones at Reply 366 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg102867.html#msg102867 and Reply 399 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103522.html#msg103522. Those were 16" clones and both were baked at market. However, when I extrapolated her weight numbers to the 18" size (by multiplying her weight numbers by 81/64), the weights were also quite close to the Mack's numbers.

It wasn't until Reply 595 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg134713.html#msg134713 that Norma attempted her first 18" Mack's clone at market. That particular version adopted recommendations that I proposed for the dough in Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg112760.html#msg112760. Based on her conclusion that the 18" Mack's clone was the closest and best one that she had made, I would say that the formulation she used is perhaps the best one to date on the forum. I do not believe that Norma mentioned the amounts of cheese(s) and sauce she used, or unbaked/baked pizza weights, but if she extrapolated the cheese(s) and sauce weights from what she used for the 14" clones referenced above, I think the unbaked and baked pizza weights would be close to the real Mack's numbers. No doubt the particular cheese blend and sauce that Norma used also contributed mightily to her results.

What cannot be divined with accuracy from the data you provided is the relative amounts of cheese(s) and sauce. Weight losses during baking can take place in all parts of the pizza, including the dough, the sauce and the cheese(s), and at different rates. However, I believe that a basic dough weight of 21 ounces is a very good starting point (using Norma's last formulation or one similar to it), and using around 10 ounces of cheese(s) and around 7.5 ounces of sauce should get one to a total unbaked pizza weight of around 38.5 ounces. This is not too far off the number (38 ounces) I estimated way back in Reply 313 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99531/topicseen.html#msg99531. Assuming a weight loss during baking of around 10% should get fairly close to a baked pizza weight of around 34.5 ounces. It is important to keep in mind that none of us is likely to nail the Mack's numbers exactly because of our different ovens and related bake times, bake configurations, etc. However, I believe that the dough, cheese(s) and sauce weights given above are a good place from which to try to make future clones.

Again, thank you for your efforts. I think that they show that we have been on the right track for some time. Hopefully, we may get even closer, especially if we learn more about Mack's cheese(s).

If I missed anything, Norma should feel free to fill in the blanks or to correct any misstatements. This is a very long thread so it is possible I missed something.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

You didn’t miss anything that I know of.  It was interesting since PiedPiper did weigh so accurately, how close the numbers were, for your Mack’s clone and my Mack’s clone.  I am going to try a Mack’s clone again in the coming month and all the numbers are helpful to me and anyone that wants to try this style of pizza.  Next time I will try to weigh my sauce and cheese and also a pie after the bake.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I want to remind everyone that there is nothing absolute about the numbers I mentioned in my last post for the dough, sauce and cheese(s). I think the weights of the three components should come to around 38-39 ounces on an unbaked basis, but there can be some variations in the amounts of sauce and cheese(s) and still get to about 38-39 ounces. I'm willing to bet that such variations also exist from pizza to pizza made by the pizza makers at Mack's since they don't weigh anything (other than the dough balls--maybe) and Mack's perhaps runs through a lot of pizza makers in their business, each with his or her heavy or light hand. For example, when I looked at the weights of two Mack's slices that you purchased and showed earlier in this thread, they were greater than the average weight of the slices that PiedPiper reported from his recent visit.

For your additional information, I used the cheese amount from the slice (Slice 1) that PiedPiper weighed and used the percentage of the cheese for that slice to calculate the amount of cheese from slice to slice. I got a total of 10.77 ounces. However, that assumes a uniform distribution of cheese(s) across the pizza, which is unlikely, and there may also be a small amount of sauce mixed in with the cheese scraps. However, I think PiedPiper's cheese numbers are in the ballpark. I also suspect that the weight losses during baking may be greatest for the sauce, since it is mostly water. Unfortunately, there is no way to calculate that loss or determine the amount of sauce from PiedPiper's numbers. My best advice is for people to use whatever amount of sauce and cheese(s) that they like. However, I would perhaps use a dough weight of 21 ounces and use amounts of sauce and cheese(s) to get to a total unbaked pizza weight of around 38-39 ounces. Otherwise, the clone may not be a close replica of a real Mack's pizza. Of course, for some people that may not be the objective. For smaller size pizzas, one would have to scale down the amounts of dough, sauce and cheese(s) based on the surface area of the smaller size pizzas relative to the surface area of the 18" size pizza.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I also don’t think any of Mack’s pizza are really consistent, except the dough balls weights.  I know the different times I did watch the piemen put the sauce and cheese on the pies, they just put them on real fast.  Even with the frozen slices I had save for almost a year, that I reported on at Reply 613 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg135280.html#msg135280 and Reply 614 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg135281.html#msg135281 there wasn’t a lot of cheese on those parbaked slices.  I know that whole pie, from those slices, was updumped from the wind, and some cheese stuck on the lid of the box, that day last year in Wildwood, at Reply 215 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97859.html#msg97859 (and the following post),  but even when I tired to weight the whole pie in the parking lot before we left Wildwood, there didn’t look like a lot of cheese on that pie. 

I thought I might get to Wildwood in May, but that wasn’t in the cards.  Maybe sometime this summer I might be able to visit Mack’s again. 

I know we didn’t really clone the Mack’s pizza, but it felt good, getting the results I had on the second to last bake. I think that pizza had more cheese than Mack’s adds. I am still thinking over another combination of cheeses to try to see if they taste anything like the cheese Mack’s uses.

Norma

[ERASMO]

Maybe this guy Mark C knows something!!  LOLOLO
http://www.wildwoodpizzatour.com/macks-pizza/comment-page-1/#comment-1219

[norma427]

Maybe this guy Mark C knows something!!  LOLOLO
http://www.wildwoodpizzatour.com/macks-pizza/comment-page-1/#comment-1219

ERASMO,

Your post gave me a good chuckle.  Thanks for the link about what people are saying about Mack’s pizza.  I guess you either love Mack’s or don’t. The thing I guess I like the most about Mack’s pizza is the greasy cheese.  Did you eat any Mack’s pizza lately?  I had wanted to go to Wildwood in May, but 8 stray kittens came into my life.  I sure couldn’t leave them and go to Wildwood.  I still am trying to find them homes.  I still have some hope of getting to Mack’s this summer, if I am lucky. 

I didn’t know anything about pizza tours in Wildwood.  Did you know about them?

Norma