NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[norma427]

Thanks for the reply, Norma. I've made pizza dough most my adult life, but never approximating pizza parlor dough. I think the longer rise time might make the difference. My doughs never have had much "spring" in them. I used a recipe I found online, as I recall. I'm sure it had way too much yeast in it.

Right now I have 2 sitting out warming up. One is your basic recipe and the other is Pete's. There are several significant differences, however. I used Better for Bread flour because that's all the high gluten flourI have access to until I order something online. Secondly, the yeast. And third, my scale is not all that accurate. Baby steps.

This year I am living in a tiny town in Louisana, so it will be something of a chore to get he proper tools. On the other hand, I can remember Mack and Manco's pizza like it was yesterday. To the last drop of gooey cheese. On the tables they had shakers of oregano, red pepper and grated parmesan.

LovesPizza,

The longer rise time does make a difference in the taste of the crust of pizzas and also could had an effect on rim rise depending on what formulation, hydration, mixing, TF, etc. is used. 

If you tried the basic Lehmann dough you probably would find you like the resulting pizzas from that dough, but it isn’t like a Mack’s or Manco and Mancos dough.  Some of the formulations are similar though. 

I can understand why you are doing baby steps and hope your pizzas turn out great! 

I find it interesting that you posted almost the exact same things I have remembered form so long ago.  I have been lucky to go to the shore and taste the real thing, but somehow memories of those pies stay in your mind forever.  They have stayed in my mind even though I know how to make pizza dough now. 

Norma

[LovesPizza]

Norma,

One thing that seems very different in Today's M&M pizza is the texture of the surface. In the 70's they used the hose to put on the sauce, but it was in a more random spiral, not so bold. The hose was clear plastic, about 24" long and about 1.2" in diameter.

Secondly, the cheese melted into a uniform blanket with small air holes at regular intervals - say a 1/8" diameter hole every 1/2" or so. It was grated finer than the cheeses in the pix in recent posts.

In 1970 I dated a Mack and Manco's pizza boy. He told me at the time that they used a 3 cheese blend. I forget the cheeses, but I remember being surprised by one of them. Maybe that was the white cheddar.

Lizzy

[norma427]

Norma,

One thing that seems very different in Today's M&M pizza is the texture of the surface. In the 70's they used the hose to put on the sauce, but it was in a more random spiral, not so bold. The hose was clear plastic, about 24" long and about 1.2" in diameter.

Secondly, the cheese melted into a uniform blanket with small air holes at regular intervals - say a 1/8" diameter hole every 1/2" or so. It was grated finer than the cheeses in the pix in recent posts.

In 1970 I dated a Mack and Manco's pizza boy. He told me at the time that they used a 3 cheese blend. I forget the cheeses, but I remember being surprised by one of them. Maybe that was the white cheddar.

Lizzy

Lizzy,

I have not been to Manco and Mancos, but Mack’s does still use the clear plastic hose.  I know they don’t do a really neat spiral with the hose, but just apply it in a spiral.  I saw that when I visited Mack’s.  

Glad you contributed that the cheese was grated finer than as been posted in the last few posts.  

Wow, you just added romance to this thread by posting that you dated a Mack and Manco guy back in 1970.  That was one thing this thread was missing the sweet smell of romance mixed with pizza.   That sounds great to me.  Do you remember the name of the guy you dated from Mack and Mancos?  The three cheese blend could be a good lead.  I would think the three cheese blend would be cheddars, but could be wrong.  I recently talked to Bova Foods and they do carry 4 brands of white cheddars.  I asked them if any of the 40 lb. blocks of cheddar are a little more tangy than the others and they said no, that they are all mild cheddars.  That had me stumped, because I had always thought that Mack’s or Mancos and Mancos were only using one white cheddar.  I don’t think we ever will be able to find out their blend is if they still are using it.  That would take way too much money and combining different cheddars. or trying to add other cheeses.  I only achieved a close taste to the cheese on a Mack’s attempt a few times on this thread, and it wasn’t exactly right.  Maybe if you know someone that still knows the guy you dated, they might be able to find out the blend of chesses Mack and Mancos used years ago.  Maybe what we are missing is one kind of cheese that might not be a cheddar.  I sure have no idea about that.

Norma

[LovesPizza]

Hi Norma,

His name was Barry and he was a Penn State student. This would have been around 1970. Very sweet man, and he was a pro at tossing the dough. His coworker was Pete. Maybe other people will remember them. Barry was in my brother's fraternity, so maybe he remembers his name. I may follow up. Maybe Phi Kappa Sigma. They were at the store at maybe 7th and boardwalk? I don't remember exactly, but I believe there was only one shop at the time.

I think 2 of the cheeses were romano and mozzerella. And then maybe Monterey Jack? The third cheese was a surprise because it didn't seem like pizza cheese. I don't think they have mixed their cheeses in years, from the evidence you all have uncovered. Anyway, might be fun to try that mix and see what I get.

Lizzy

[norma427]

Hi Norma,

His name was Barry and he was a Penn State student. This would have been around 1970. Very sweet man, and he was a pro at tossing the dough. His coworker was Pete. Maybe other people will remember them. Barry was in my brother's fraternity, so maybe he remembers his name. I may follow up. Maybe Phi Kappa Sigma. They were at the store at maybe 7th and boardwalk? I don't remember exactly, but I believe there was only one shop at the time.

I think 2 of the cheeses were romano and mozzerella. And then maybe Monterey Jack? The third cheese was a surprise because it didn't seem like pizza cheese. I don't think they have mixed their cheeses in years, from the evidence you all have uncovered. Anyway, might be fun to try that mix and see what I get.

Lizzy

Lizzy,

Good to hear your brother might remember Barry and you might follow up.  I really don’t know how many pizza businesses Mack and Mancos had back in the 70’s.  

I think I have tried Monterey Jack on this thread, but not in combinations with other cheeses.  I wonder what the third cheese might be.  They all might still be mixing cheeses.  We never uncovered if there was a blending of cheeses or not.  Your leads might send us in another direction, which might be good.  

Good luck if you decide to blend cheeses!  

Norma

[Ev]

Hmmmm...................the ever thickening plot!

[norma427]

Hmmmm...................the ever thickening plot!

Steve,

You are so right!  I might have to go though my distributors catalog and Bova’s catalog and see what kinds of cheeses might be different and maybe create a list to post on this thread. I could also blend some cheeses and melt them on aluminum foil in the oven to see how they taste blended and melted. I don’t know if that is a good idea or not.  Will think about it more.  I don't think the mystery on this thread will ever be figured out.  

Norma

[desant89]

LovesPizza,

This is one place on eBay that sells saf-instant yeast.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150514650517+&item=150514650517&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466 I think it can also be purchased at Costco’s.  You also can just purchase ADY and do a conversion.  Fleischmann’s at most supermarkets is easily found and is ADY yeast. 

Even fresh yeast could be used in any of the formulations.  We don’t even know what kind of yeast Mack’s or Mancos and Mancos uses.  For all we know it could be fresh cake yeast. 

What kind of yeast are you using in your formulations and which formulation did you try?  Did you ever make pizza dough before?

Norma

Nooooooooooo......No wonder my dough is not rising.  I thought that the FLeischmans was ADY was the same as IDY!  No wonder my dough has not been rising!  I have been using the ADY at .65%.  Ok, so now I guess I will order the IDY right now.

[desant89]

Ok, my last reply was a bigtime boo boo on my part.  Now that explains the problem with my dought not rising!  I am sure Peter or Norma will chime in.  BUT, I have a GREAT piece of info.....

Macks & Mancos uses Wisconsin BRAND (that stamp was for the brand) white cheddar AGED.  It comes in 42# blocks.  Aged means that it is sharp, but that is 100% the exact brand they use.  As mentioned in an earlier post, they do grate it thicker than normal which is probably what helps it not burn. 

I cannot get anyone in trouble, but I seen total proof on paper of M&M's order for this cheeses.  Also, we should not be surprised as we had it right from the beginning.  We just did not realize Wisconsin was the brand name, and that it was AGED cheese.  Also it is specifically 42lb blocks!  Now we are making progress!!!!

I also got some Gangi Super heavy Pizza Sauce with Basil today.  I have to figure out what I am going to do to it prior to using it now.  Still working on their actual sauce recipe, but we are on our own for that as of now.

[Pete-zza]

Nooooooooooo......No wonder my dough is not rising.  I thought that the FLeischmans was ADY was the same as IDY!  No wonder my dough has not been rising!  I have been using the ADY at .65%.  Ok, so now I guess I will order the IDY right now.

desant89,

Fleischmann's sells a RapidRise yeast that is a version of IDY, and it also sells a bread machine yeast that is IDY. If you have the Fleischmann's ADY and you did not rehydrate it in warm water (around 105 degrees F) for about ten minutes, but rather you used it dry, that would push the cold fermentation window out to several days. As an example of this, see Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308. That is not what you want to do with your Mack and Manco clone, if that is what you actually did.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

BUT, I have a GREAT piece of info.....

Macks & Mancos uses Wisconsin BRAND (that stamp was for the brand) white cheddar AGED.  It comes in 42# blocks.  Aged means that it is sharp, but that is 100% the exact brand they use.  As mentioned in an earlier post, they do grate it thicker than normal which is probably what helps it not burn.  

I cannot get anyone in trouble, but I seen total proof on paper of M&M's order for this cheeses.  Also, we should not be surprised as we had it right from the beginning.  We just did not realize Wisconsin was the brand name, and that it was AGED cheese.  Also it is specifically 42lb blocks!  Now we are making progress!!!!

desant89,

I seriously doubt that any company can have exclusive rights to "Wisconsin" as a brand name for cheese. Otherwise, that company could stop anyone from using "Wisconsin" on Wisconsin cheese products. However, there are associations, boards and cooperatives that sometimes create certification brands that it allows its member producers to use in connection with their own brands provided that they meet the terms of the certification. Examples of such certification brands for Wisconsin cheese can be seen at the Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board website at http://www.eatwisconsincheese.com/terms.aspx. See, also, pages 6 and 7 at http://www.ecta.org/IMG/pdf/gerien.pdf.

As an aside, I did a Google search and could not find any company using "Wisconsin" as a registered brand for Wisconsin cheese, even if the company is called something else.

Maybe you can provide further information on what you read or heard.

Peter

[desant89]

desant89,

I seriously doubt that any company can have exclusive rights to "Wisconsin" as a brand name for cheese. Otherwise, that company could stop anyone from using "Wisconsin" on Wisconsin cheese products. However, there are associations, boards and cooperatives that sometimes create certification brands that it allows its member producers to use in connection with their own brands provided that they meet the terms of the certification. Examples of such certification brands for Wisconsin cheese can be seen at the Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board website at http://www.eatwisconsincheese.com/terms.aspx. See, also, pages 6 and 7 at http://www.ecta.org/IMG/pdf/gerien.pdf.

As an aside, I did a Google search and could not find any company using "Wisconsin" as a registered brand for Wisconsin cheese, even if the company is called something else.

Maybe you can provide further information on what you read or heard.

Peter

Then perhaps the vendor was mistaken .  I agree that it would seem odd.  However, I am sure there is some company called Wisconsin Cheese or something like that.

item# 00508  1/42# ave  Cheddar, White, WISC. "AGED"

That is what is on their product list, and what M&M orders from them.  Eventually I am sure I will be ordering it, and can then know for sure what the brand is.  I will see what else I can find on the brand.  Only thing I am positive of is that this is 100% the cheese that they are using.

[norma427]

Then perhaps the vendor was mistaken .  I agree that it would seem odd.  However, I am sure there is some company called Wisconsin Cheese or something like that.

item# 00508  1/42# ave  Cheddar, White, WISC. "AGED"

That is what is on their product list, and what M&M orders from them.  Eventually I am sure I will be ordering it, and can then know for sure what the brand is.  I will see what else I can find on the brand.  Only thing I am positive of is that this is 100% the cheese that they are using.

desant89,

I sure don’t know what the differences are in blocks of white cheddar, but I purchased a big block of white cheddar at Reply 771 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg153045.html#msg153045 and that block as can be seen on the pictures on that link was a Wisconsin State Brand of cheddar.  That sure wasn't the right type of cheddar.  When I have time later tonight or tomorrow I will look in catalog books to see if I can find the number of cheddar you posted.  Maybe you are right that the word “aged” or the number you gave has something to do with the right type of cheddar.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

However, I am sure there is some company called Wisconsin Cheese or something like that.

desant89,

That may well be true since company names are often governed by state and/or local law, and it is unlikely that they would use that name on Wisconsin cheese products as a brand name, which comes under federal trademark law. Here is an example of a cheese company with Wisconsin Cheese in its name, http://media.eatwisconsincheese.com/resources/wi_cheese_company_search/companydetail.aspx?companyid=32&companyinfoid=63, but where other names are used for the cheese they sell.

Peter

[desant89]

Spoke to the vendor.  The cheese is made by Masonville.  He said it is abbreviated on the package as Masonvl, and it is stamped "Wisconsin"  I know someone mentioned that brand earlier at some point, but that is definitely it.

As for sauce, I cannot confirm how true this is, but I was just told that they use the Gangi, and water at a 1to1 ratio.  I am assuming they season it too.  Again, I was told that just now over the phone.  I cannot confirm this in any way, but I will be trying that tomorrow just to see.  The cheese is 100% correct though.

[norma427]

Spoke to the vendor.  The cheese is made by Masonville.  He said it is abbreviated on the package as Masonvl, and it is stamped "Wisconsin"  I know someone mentioned that brand earlier at some point, but that is definitely it.

As for sauce, I cannot confirm how true this is, but I was just told that they use the Gangi, and water at a 1to1 ratio.  I am assuming they season it too.  Again, I was told that just now over the phone.  I cannot confirm this in any way, but I will be trying that tomorrow just to see.  The cheese is 100% correct though.

desant,

Thanks you for your information about the Masonville cheddar.  If anyone is interested, I called Bova Foods this morning and they do carry the Masonville cheddar in 42 lb. blocks.  If I want to purchase any of that cheese I would need to set-up an account and sit down and talk with the customer service rep and get pricing of that product and also let Bova Foods know what other products I might be interested in and then I can get pricing.  Bova told me that Masonville dairy makes the white cheddar, but I can’t find information on where they are located.  I am not sure if I am going to set-up an account and try to purchase some of the Masonville cheddar.  I think the Gangi sauce is seasoned pretty heavily with oregano and black pepper from what I saw.  I did purchase some of the Gangi sauce and it did taste exactly like Mack’s sauce with oregano, pepper and a little sugar added.  Steve and I also watered down the Gangi sauce to the consistency we thought it should be.

We did find out Mack’s uses the Gangi sauce, but don’t know about Mancos and Mancos.

Good luck with your tests and let us all know how your pizzas turn out.   

Norma

[desant89]

Ok, I made another one today at my friends shop.  Since i used the wrong yeast (ADY), I let it cold ferment for 4 days, and then left it our for 3 hours prior to using it.  It did rice pretty good.  However, the oven Spring was nothing to write home about.  What i can say is this is by far the best one, and I am really happy with the results!

I used the Gangi sauce with water, salt, pepper, and a pinch of oregano.  I then used the Great Lakes shredded white cheddar that I was given a sample of. I &M uses if I needed to.  This thing was bursting with flavor.  I jut really want to thank everyone one here for their help especially Peter, and Norma.  I am anxious to get my next dough batch going when the IDY gets here, but again, I would use what I ate today in my shop!

[Ev]

Sounds great! I'm glad your pizzas are improving. 

I just need to say that Norma specifically tries to press out the rim to prevent too much oven spring, so.......

 Maybe you could take some pictures next time you bake? We like pictures!

[norma427]

Ok, I made another one today at my friends shop.  Since i used the wrong yeast (ADY), I let it cold ferment for 4 days, and then left it our for 3 hours prior to using it.  It did rice pretty good.  However, the oven Spring was nothing to write home about.  What i can say is this is by far the best one, and I am really happy with the results!

I used the Gangi sauce with water, salt, pepper, and a pinch of oregano.  I then used the Great Lakes shredded white cheddar that I was given a sample of. I &M uses if I needed to.  This thing was bursting with flavor.  I jut really want to thank everyone one here for their help especially Peter, and Norma.  I am anxious to get my next dough batch going when the IDY gets here, but again, I would use what I ate today in my shop!

desant,

How did you think the Gangi sauce tasted with not much of the oregano added in comparison to a real Mancos and Mancos pizza?  When I used the Gangi sauce I think Steve and I added a fair amount of oregano.  I am not sure how Mancos and Mancos pies really taste though.  Mack’s pizzas really doesn’t have a lot of oven spring in my opinion, but like Steve posted I do really press on the dough when opening it.  I am glad you are happy with your results so far.  If you can. like Steve said, post some pictures.  It is easier to diagnose what might be causing problems if pictures are posted.

Norma

[desant89]

I really like it without much Oregano as I think it bitters the flavor up a little bit, and I never tasted much bitterness at M&M.  I did not want to take away from the sweetness.

I had pics, but was not in a position to post which I have done now.  As far as spring, I also flattened the entire dough when making it, but I know M&M has more of a spring than what is seen below.  However, let's not forget, this is with a 3 day cold ferment when I was using the wrong yeast.  This is .65 ADY no IDY.  I actually did not have a problem with the texture at all or the way it cooked.  Just would like a hair more spring.  Also, I really really liked the Great Lakes cheese although I think I put a little bit too much this time.