NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[norma427]

This is a picture that is somewhat like the stainless steel pouring vessel Mack's were using instead of the hose, the last day I was at Mack's pizza.

Norma

[norma427]

I found these Yancey’s Fresh Cheddar Cheese Curds at market today at a meat stand.  The cheese curds had a great taste. When I talked to the meat man, he said it almost tastes like fresh mozzarella.  I did taste the cheese curds and they were good.  Maybe I will try this brand of cheese in my next attempt of the Mack’s clone.

http://www.yanceysfancy.com/specialty_cheeses.htm

Norma

[norma427]

I was at our local Country Store today to pick up some flour. I found another kind of mild white cheddar.  I am not sure of the brand because the lady that owns the store wasn’t there today.  Now I have 3 kinds of mild white cheddar to experiment with the Mack’s clone.    Hopefully one of these will come close to tasting like a cheese used on the Mack’s pizza.  I have the Biery mild white cheddar, the Yancey cheddar curds and now this new white mild cheddar.  I will make another dough ball sometime this week or over the weekend to try.

Norma

[rayjock]

I'm new to the site and I don't know if any of this has been mentioned before, but...

I used to work at Mack's in Wildwood, NJ over 40 years ago. Here's what I know:

1. The dough was mixed by Duke Mack early in the morning every day. The recipe was secret, known only to a few family members. The batches were separated into balls, put on metal pans and allowed to rise for at least 7 hours.
2. The sauce came out of cans (local NJ company) and was put into vats in the basement, to be pumped up to the main floor. We (the workers), seasoned the sauce with oregano and some pepper. The sauce was "no big deal".
3. The cheese is "longhorn cheddar" which came in big wheels from Wisconsin. We grated the cheese as needed. Use of this cheese gives the pizza a stronger "cheese" flavor
4. After hand-tooling (important), the dough into a pie, the cheese was put on first, followed by the sauce which was sprinkled on via a small hose. To get the right taste, THE CHEESE MUST BE PUT ON FIRST! After the sauce, a little more cheese is put on. All this is done in less than a minute, so that the pizza is not soggy.
5. The oven was very hot - at least 550 degrees. The pie took only a couple of minutes to bake.

[norma427]

rayjock,

Welcome to the forum and I hope you like it here.  This thread appreciates all you remember.  What you have told us really can help in this process of getting the Mack’s clone closer, now.  Members on this thread have identified the sauce as Gangi Supreme, but weren’t sure what was added to the sauce.  It makes sense now that only oregano and pepper might be added, because when Steve (Ev) and I tasted the parbaked real Mack’s pizza, that is all we could taste in the sauce. 

The longhorn cheddar could be the really big clue, as how the cheese might have the unique taste the pie has.  We have tried different kinds of mild white cheddar cheese, but never thought to try a longhorn cheddar.

The description on how Duke Mack made the dough years ago, could also be a clue we were missing.  Never thought about it could be a one day dough. 

We watched videos of the piemen making the pies and saw how they used hoses to spread on the sauce and also saw how they applied the cheese.  ERAMSO and I have been to Wildwood this year and sampled Mack’s pizza. 

If we ever get this Mack’s clone right, I hope you will try the formula and see if it what you remember, in the taste of the crust, sauce, and cheese.

Were you one of the piemen 40 years ago?   If you were, I can imagine how busy you were.

Thank you for your contribution and if I can every help you with some kind of pie I know how to make, let me know. 

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

After much thought on rayjock’s  post yesterday, I am now wondering if you think it might be possible that Mack’s might be doing a one day ferment.  rayjock said he worked at Mack’s over forty years ago, so a same day ferment now, seems unlikely to me.  How could Mack’s determine how much dough they might need for the same day?  They would need to determine each day how much dough to make and any leftover dough might not be good for the next day.  After looking at some threads of same day fermentation and reading that the one day ferment gives a better flavor, such as a longer cold ferment, I can’t say that when I tasted Mack’s pizza, that their crust  had any characteristics of a long ferment.  I have never tried a one day ferment, other than a Sicilian dough, so I can’t tell what the difference might be in a thin crust pizza in a one day ferment.

I had some Colby White Longhorn cheese here at home and tasted some today and also some mild white cheddar cheese.  In my opinion there isn’t much difference, except the Colby White Longhorn was creamier.  I know by eating different kinds of Longhorn cheese, there can be different tastes from one brand to another.  This also has me puzzled.

I wanted to make another stab at a formula for a Mack’s clone this weekend, but all this has me undecided.

Do you have any thoughts about the ferment times or cheese?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I usually go with my gut on these kinds of matters. It seems to me that a high volume operation will not cold ferment dough for several days. Mack's is not an artisan operation where I could easily imagine a long fermentation scenario. Also, looking at some of the recent Mack's pizzas, I don't see the signs of long fermentation. That was in good measure behind my comments in Reply 313 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99531.html#msg99531 where I mentioned that I was considering a short fermentation time, possibly as little as a day (coupled with an increase in the amount of oil). If it weren't for the fact that the temperature here in Texas has been in the 90s lately and headed to around 100 degrees this weekend, I might have already started a new Mack's clone dough. That will have to wait until cooler weather sneaks in at some point.

It is also hard for me to imagine that Mack's hasn't changed something in the way it makes its doughs over the past 40 years. Unless you are trying to capture a Mack's pizza of many years ago, the best we can do at this point is to try to capture what Mack's is now doing. Managing inventory of dough balls is not a major problem, whether the dough balls are made and used the same day, or possibly the next day. However, the yeast quantity has to support both possibilities. Possibly the Mack's pizzas that we have seen with signs of long fermentation are made from dough held overnight or maybe even longer. That would most likely mean that Mack's has cooler capacity somewhere. Maybe rayjock can shed more light on how the Mack's dough was made and managed from an inventory standpoint when he was an employee.

There is not much that I can offer on the matter of cheese, given the limited choices I have here in Texas.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I will work out a formula based on your last formula at, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 but will add more oil, less yeast and try a same day ferment to see what the results will be. 

What I meant in my lost post was I had been trying doughs with a longer ferment, when trying the Mack’s clone and I haven’t ever tried a same day dough.  If Mack’s is still making the dough early in the morning and using it the same day, this is what had me puzzled.  All my NY style crusts have at least been a one day cold ferment.

At least I don’t have any problems with finding different kinds of cheese here.  I can see you are at a disadvantage in Texas.

I can understand with the temperatures you have in Texas, that it would be too hot to make anything that would involve heating an oven.  When I was at market Tuesday, the temperature was about 88 degrees F and standing in front of the oven until around 5:00 was hot enough for me.  At least my granddaughter was graduating and I got to leave early.  I had enough of the heat and humidity.

Thanks for your insight,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

What I meant in my lost post was I had been trying doughs with a longer ferment, when trying the Mack’s clone and I haven’t ever tried a same day dough.  If Mack’s is still making the dough early in the morning and using it the same day, this is what had me puzzled.  All my NY style crusts have at least been a one day cold ferment.

Norma,

In the days before commercial refrigeration existed, pizza operators made and used the dough the same day, using room temperature fermentation. If you are interested, you can read Evelyne Slomon's discussion of the typical ways that pizza operators made and used their dough, at Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29496/topicseen.html#msg29496. The advent of refrigeration made a big difference in how pizza operators made and managed their dough. The problem with using only room temperature fermentation was the lack of good temperature control, which introduced too many variables in the fermentation process. You can read Evelyne's comments on some of the early practices of the original NYC pizza operators at Reply 606 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg41054/topicseen.html#msg41054.

In the above vein, I remember one member, a pizza operator I was helping, who decided to use only emergency doughs made at room temperature and used throughout the course of the day. Apparently, his competitors were using much the same approach. I tried to talk him out of that approach but he gave it a try anyway, only to give up fairly quickly when he discovered how much room temperature could affect his dough. No doubt there are a few stragglers here and there who are still using same-day doughs fermented at room temperature, and maybe they have mastered all of the procedures and inventory issues, but I would guess that they are very much in the minority. They may also be using bulk dough from which pieces of dough are cut and run through a roller or sheeter of some kind. This cuts down equipment needs and labor considerably.

I have done some experimentation with same-day cold fermented doughs but with only limited success. The problem from my perspective is insufficient fermentation and, therefore, insufficient byproducts of fermentation to contribute to the finished crust flavor, taste, color, aroma and texture. Also, more yeast has to be used to increase the fermentation so that the dough balls are ready when needed. The dough will rise faster and produce more fermentation gases but the fermentation byproducts do not expand apace. The crusts may be better than those made from emergency doughs but not as good as those made from long, cold fermented doughs.

Knowing where Mack's dough making and management methods fall within the range of methods discussed above and in Evelyne's posts would give us more clues to the Mack's dough.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

That first link was really helpful and I learned a lot from it.  I didn’t know Tom Lehmann and Evelyne Solomon were friends and learned from each other.  Seems like the Lehmann dough was formulated from a team effort.  It was also interesting about how the Lombardi formula came from the same person and Evelyne only mentioned it because you did a comparison.  I really liked how Evelyne said that Tom Lehmann gave her the science and she gave him the art of pizza making. Evelyne is a real artisan pizza maker.

Possibly after reading this, it might be how Mack’s makes their dough in the morning.

REFRIGERATED DOUGH METHOD:
OBJECTIVE: dough is prepared during down time, divided into preweighed units, and placed into a retarder where it remains in a relatively stable condition for use on the following day.
PROBLEMS: Requires careful attention to dough temperature control; a walk-in retarder of sufficient capacity is required to hold a number of racks containing dough
MERITS: Not necessary to accurately predict daily sales, extra dough always on hand to fill unexpected sales and surplus dough can be carried over for use on the following day; good level of dough uniformity; convenience.

I also see Evelyne suggests for a longer dough she advises to use more sugar, not more yeast, if you are already using sugar in the dough.  Will have to think about that suggestion.

The second link you referenced really had me cracking up about how Tom Lehmann tried to so called “dumpster diving” to find out how to make Evelyne’s pizza at Pizzico Restaurant .  I can’t believe not that long ago Tom Lehmann didn’t even know how to make a authentic New Style pizza and was paid to find out how to go about it.  Seems like Tom Lehmann did learn a lot from Evelyne.  I also see how Evelyne talks about mastering a same day dough.  Tom Lehmann trying to reverse-engineer a dough still has me laughing.

I have wanted to try a same day room temperature fermented dough at some point, but have never gotten around to it.  I was reading up on that subject, but won’t try that experiment with this Mack’s clone dough. 

Do you have think I should just try higher sugar amounts and not more yeast to keep the fermentation bubbles down on the skin?  When looking at the Mack’s dough, there doesn’t appear to be any bubbles, when opening their dough.  I do believe Mack’s is using refrigeration, while storing their dough balls.

I don’t have enough experience in dough making to be able to decide, which the best approach might be.

Thanks for the links,

Norma

[ERASMO]

Norma

Master foods near me carries a Wisc. White mild cheddar in a 40lb block.  I am going to buy a block.  Would you mind if I sent you some to try?  Free, of course.

[Pete-zza]

I also see Evelyne suggests for a longer dough she advises to use more sugar, not more yeast, if you are already using sugar in the dough.  Will have to think about that suggestion.

Norma,

I, too, noted Evelyne's comments on sugar, at Reply 39 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29501.html#msg29501. Having worked for so long on Lehmann NY style doughs, my practice has been not to add sugar inasmuch as the fermentation period was unlikely to go beyond three days (cold fermentation). Beyond that point, I might add some sugar for the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as Tom routinely recommends. Tom's concern about the use of sugar is that the bottoms of crusts might turn brown prematurely or even burn if baked in a standard deck oven. To a certain extent, it depends on the oven, Apparently, some deck ovens can tolerate 1-2% sugar without any problem. I don't know how tolerant of sugar the Roto-Flex oven used by Mack's is. I found that that sugar was less of a problem in a standard home oven using a pizza stone. 

I'm not sure whether using more sugar in a Mack's clone dough will lead to materially reduced bubbling of the dough. Ordinary table sugar (sucrose) does take quite a while to be broken down into simple sugars that yeast uses as food so maybe that will slow down the formation of the bubbles. Using more yeast would seem to be a faster approach to bubbling provided there are enough simple sugars in the dough from all sources (natural) to produce more carbon dioxide. I have a Lehmann NY style dough in the works to which I added 1.5% sugar. I added it because I wasn't sure when I would use it and viewed it as insurance in case I let the dough go beyond three days.

In your case, it shouldn't hurt for you to use more sugar rather than more yeast for the approximately one-day dough that you are considering making. Maybe we can learn something from your results.

Peter

[norma427]

ERASMO,

You are too kind.  Do you have something you might want to use the Wisconsin mild white cheddar for?  In light of rayjock’s last post, he said they used white longhorn cheese in Mack’s pizza years ago.  I did a taste test yesterday and can’t really tell much difference in the taste of 2 kinds of mild white cheddar I have here at home, compared to the Colby White Longhorn.  I did just tasted the Yancey’s cheddar cheese curds at market today, that I had in the Deli Case at market and the taste of them is a much better taste than any of the other cheeses.  It even left a taste in my mouth like mozzarella.  They even were a few strings like good mozzarella.  I really don’t think Mack’s would be using an expensive cheese like Yancey’s, but am confused whether to try a longhorn or one of the mild cheddar cheeses I do have.  I don’t have any idea of how these cheeses will taste after baking a Mack’s clone.  I found out before some of the cheeses tasted a lot different after the bake.

If you have other uses for the 40 lb. block of Wisconsin mild white cheddar let me know.  I don’t want you to waste money for something you won’t use.

We are still trying to figure out how the crust might be made.

Thanks,

Norma


Peter,

I was just thinking about when I made the Papa John’s clone and how much sugar was in that formula.

You said when you were going to try a Papa’s John’s clone again, you were going to lower the salt to .0.75 %  after you tried the Apple pie clone at your reply:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80777.html#msg80777

Did you ever try Papa John’s clone with the 0.75% salt?

Since the Papa John’s clone is also a fairly low hydration, lower IDY, more sugar, and more oil amounts as you replied:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197

Do you think this could help figured this Mack’s formula out in any way?  In using this formula there shouldn’t be much expansion in the dough for a one day dough or if it had to be used the next day.  This dough was docked, but I could see how the crust could be flatten by the rigorous ways Mack’s uses in opening their dough. I the only thing that might not work out would be the sugar amounts.  Maybe I am all wet on this, but was just thinking about when I tried to Papa John’s clone and the ingredients that were used.

This was the formula I used when making the Papa John’s clone:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg75889.html#msg75889

and what the finished crust looked like

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg76149.html#msg76149

Maybe I will add a little more sugar to see what might happen, I will think about all this. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

I was just thinking about when I made the Papa John’s clone and how much sugar was in that formula.

You said when you were going to try a Papa’s John’s clone again, you were going to lower the salt to .0.75 %  after you tried the Apple pie clone at your reply:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80777.html#msg80777

Did you ever try Papa John’s clone with the 0.75% salt?

Since the Papa John’s clone is also a fairly low hydration, lower IDY, more sugar, and more oil amounts as you replied:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197

Do you think this could help figured this Mack’s formula out in any way?  In using this formula there shouldn’t be much expansion in the dough for a one day dough or if it had to be used the next day.  This dough was docked, but I could see how the crust could be flatten by the rigorous ways Mack’s uses in opening their dough. I the only thing that might not work out would be the sugar amounts.  Maybe I am all wet on this, but was just thinking about when I tried to Papa John’s clone and the ingredients that were used.

Norma,

I do not think that the Papa John's clone experience helps us divine the Mack's dough formulation. The Papa John's clone doughs contain over 7% oil and over 4% sugar. Also, the thickness factors for most of the PJ clones I made were over 0.14. The combination of these three elements will mean a fairly thick crust and crumb with a soft and tender characteristic. They do not encourage a lot of chewiness or cracker-like aspects in the rim of the crust. The last two Mack's clone doughs I made used much less oil and much less sugar than the PJ clone doughs and a thickness factor of around 0.08. Those efforts produced a result that did not remind me of PJ crusts, even considering that there are similarities of hydration and yeast levels. My thinking was more along the lines of a high-hydration version of DKM's cracker-style dough (see, for example, the last paragraph of Reply 3 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg78465.html#msg78465) or the De Lorenzo clone doughs I experimented with, both of which include sugar and oil. With respect to the De Lorenzo clone effort, see the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060. The pizza made using that formulation had a more cracker-like character than a Mack's clone crust because of its lower thickness factor (a bit over 0.05) and resulting thinner crust.

With respect to reducing the salt in the PJ clone doughs to 0.75%, I did not proceed with that plan. If you read a few posts later than the one you referenced, you will see that member November challenged my math and ultimately convinced me that there was more than 0.75% salt in a real PJ crust.

Peter

[ERASMO]

Norma

I did not realize the longhorn was NOT cheddar. 

I thought is was a type of white mild cheddar.

[norma427]

Norma

I did not realize the longhorn was NOT cheddar. 

I thought is was a type of white mild cheddar.

ERASMO,

I think the longhorn is a kind of mild white cheddar, but am not sure.  It doesn't say on the label it is a cheddar.  I will have to look it up, but thought that the longhorn cheese is just cheddar that isn't aged. 

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I didn’t read far enough in your post before about you saying the pizza wasn’t particularly cracker-like, but more a combination of a chewy, crispy and crunchy crust.  Then you said it was like a combination of a NY style and a thin and crispy style.  I just thought when you referenced that post before, that I sure didn’t think the Mack’s pizza crust was a cracker-style. I can now see there are some characteristics of a Mack’s crust in those photos.

Your De Lorenzo clone looks promising, also.  I could imagine Mack’s pizza being something like a De Lorenzo’s pie, because before, I also noted that both the Mack family and Manco family apparently came from Trenton NJ and learn their pizza making skills there before going to the shore.

I remember November challenging you about the salt, but didn’t remember what happened, because you were also posting about the Papa John’s Applepie and the salt used in the Applepie. I sure didn’t understand anything about nutritional data back then.

I still am not sure how to proceed, but your links and ideas will help me to decide.

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I think the longhorn is a kind of mild white cheddar, but am not sure.  It doesn't say on the label it is a cheddar.  I will have to look it up, but thought that the longhorn cheese is just cheddar that isn't aged. 

Norma and ERASMO,

Since I had not heard of the term "longhorn" as applied to white cheddar cheese, I did a Google search. As noted at http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/longhorn%20cheese!opendocument&startkey=longhorn%20cheese, it appears that the term "longhorn" applies to a particular shape and size of a block of cheese. The last sentence of the referenced article indicates that the actual cheese can be "mild cheddar".

Peter

[norma427]

Peter and ERASMO,

This is what I found out about the Colby Longhorn I have here at home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colby_cheese

Norma

[norma427]

I just took a picture of the Colby Longhorn, the regular white cheddar and the Biery mild cheddar cheese.  The Colby Longhorn, just has more holes and is more creamy when eaten.

Norma