NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[ERASMO]

Norma

Will you be down the shore this summer?

[norma427]

Norma

Will you be down the shore this summer?

ERASMO,

I am not sure at this time, but do want to go this coming summer.   

Norma

[fireman117]

Hi Norma and All,

I’ve been watching this thread with great interest but I'm only up to reply 318 so far.

I didn't surprise me too much about the cheddar cheese. As kids we would make those lousy Chef Boy-R-Dee pizza kits and if we wanted any thing other than the parmesan that came with it, we’d have to scrounge around the fridge for whatever cheese might be there. And guess what every refrigerator in the state of Wisconsin has in it. CHEDDAR! So we'd put that on and things would really start to improve.  Now, with that in mind, I also think it's an excellent idea for pizza. Lot’s of flavor.

I could do a little research for you without too much trouble and see who has what.  WI has lots of medium sized dairies and they're real good at making cheese.

We might be able to get you what you need for testing without too much trouble. For example I called over to Star Dairy a few minutes ago and talked to one of the cheese guys there and he said they don't regularly make "white" cheddar, but if you gave him a call, the next time he made curds, he'd make you a ring or two up. Can they ship to Pennsylvania, no problem. I have whole milk Mozzarella shipped to me here in Milwaukee, and it's been flawless. If you want some help please let me know. I'd also like to see this Mack's pizza thing work out. It looks great.

Here is there address and phone number: If the order takers don’t know about the white cheddar, ask to talk to one of the cheese makers.
http://www.wegastardairy.com/
(920) 867-2870

I have company coming over Thursday and want to give this thing a try. As I said I haven't read this whole thread, but here's where I'm at. I made up the dough last night and stored it in the fridge until Thursday.  Finished dough temp was 80 degrees, then right into the fridge in two round covered containers. I'm using Dakota Maid Bread flour and SAF Instant yeast.

I used the dough calculator for two 14 inch pies and I've stuck with this recipe for a while and have very good results overall except for the stretching thing. Sometimes the dough stretches right out, sometimes not. I let it temper on the counter for a couple of hours and try not to disturb it until I'm ready to make the pies.  I can’t toss! Is this close enough to make it work? (I didn’t see Peter’s #301 reply on the crust improvements until today).

Total weight 930 g with a 58% hydration.
Flour 577 g
H20 335g
IDY 2.31 g/.61 t
NaCl 10 g
Oil (Olive) 5.77 g

 Norma, I'm a little lost on the sauce. Except it seems to be a thinned out paste based sauce with oregano and black pepper. Is that right? Here's what I have on hand for tomato product. I have cans of Cento diced or Puree, Pastine San Marzano with Basil, Red Gold Petite diced. Hunt's or Red Gold Paste or an emergency can of Dei Fratelli Pizza Sauce.

If you could give me an idea of what the sauce is like that would be great.

Thank you,
Eric

[norma427]

Eric,

I know this is a long thread.  I have access to many kinds of milk white cheddar cheese in my area and I have tried a fair amount for Mack’s pies and so far none of them are the exact cheese Mack’s uses. I even called distributors near where Mack’ and Mac and Mancos are, and so far haven’t had any luck in finding out who distributes Mack’s cheese.

Thanks you for contacting a dairy about getting some mild white cheddar to try.  I appreciate your help on this thread.  I wish I knew the exact kind of milk white cheddar Mack’s uses, but I don’t know.

I don’t know anything about Dakota Maid Bread flour and don’t know how that will turn out in a Mack’s clone pizza.  I have been using Kyrol flour for my attempts for a Mack’s clone.  That is the kind of flour Mack’s uses. 

This was the last formula I tried at my attempt to make a Mack’s pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103522.html#msg103522

As for the sauce Mack’s uses it is Gangi.  It is like a thick paste, and in my opinion it is not sweet.  I am not familiar with the kinds of pastes you have, but I think most pastes would work out okay if you thinned them down some.  I think Mack’s uses oregano and black pepper in their sauce.  I would tend to think Mack’s sauce would taste something like Walmart’s brand of tomato paste from times I tasted the Walmart brand.

I wish I could be of more help.  If I can help you in any other way, let me know. 

Norma

[fireman117]

Hi Norma,
Thanks for the info and I'll take a look at your last attempt.  By the way all the others I saw looked real good.
A couple of questions. Is the Gangi product available anywhere?
I couldn’t find out much about them except apparently they were associated with the Dei Fratelli family in CA way long time ago, and now are owned by Teasdale??, who can pinto beans in the same location in Atwater CA. Note the address is the same.

http://www.manta.com/c/mmcnr3q/sun-garden-gangi-canning-company-llc

http://www.teasdale.net/contact_teasdale.php

But, I couldn't even find a distributor for the product or even any pictures of the can. Could you post a picture?

When you thin out the paste what is the consistency like? About ketchup thickness? And is it cooked or just mixed?
I have Hunt's and Red Gold on hand, but I could whip over to Wal-Mart and pick up a couple of cans of paste.

As for the Dakota Maid, I'm no expert, but I’ve had very good luck with their products and their prices are reasonable, $12.50/25lbs. bread flour.
Here the link showing some of their products. I have a request in with them for the specs on their flours.

https://www.ndmill.com/bakery.cfm
.
Any way I’m going to give this a try on Thursday, but I’m going to use the whole milk Mozzarella, because that’s what I have on hand. Next time I’ll try it with your last attempt and the Star Dairy cheddar.  I’ll post some pix unless I have a disaster!

Thank you for the info, and just a side note. A year ago this month I discovered the site and it has been enlightening to say the least. I went from not being able to make a pizza that was edible to something in the very acceptable range, with consistent results.

Thank you all!

Eric

[norma427]

Eric,

I am not sure about where Gangi sauce can be purchased other than Bova Foods.  http://www.bovafoods.com/products.html  njbruce posted at Reply 436  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg105488.html#msg105488 that Gangi sauce can be purchased at http://supremedairyfarms.com/   Peter posted in the next Reply 437 the link to the catalog http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg105490.html#msg105490

ERASMO also reported that Mack and Mancos uses Gangi Sauce at Reply 434 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg105400.html#msg105400

I also saw the Gangi sauce when I went to Wildwood.

In this Reply 341 from me, I did use the Gangi sauce at home to make a pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg98557.html#msg98557 and an attempt I made at market at a Mack’s clone, using the Gangi sauce at Reply 149 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97425.html#msg97425 In Reply 95 there is a picture of a can of Gangi sauce, that Steve (Ev) went to Bova Foods to purchase for me at Reply 95 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg96781.html#msg96781

The Gangi sauce is dark red and needs to be thinned down.  It is kinda bitter to my taste buds, but when baked on a pizza, the taste changes.  I would tend to think that Walmart paste would be able to be about same from other tests I did with the Walmart paste.  The sauce is applied fairly thick.

Best of luck in trying a Mack’s clone.    Mozzarella should turn out great on your pie.  Post pictures if you have success.

I only found this forum about a year and a half ago and I also found the forum very enlightening.  My pizza making skills went from non-existent to be able to make many different kinds of pies, but I am still learning.  Glad to hear this forum has helped you too! 

Norma

[BOARDWALKER]

A poster on another pizza site stated that he worked for a pizzeria that made a Grotto's clone in Delaware. They used Conte pizza sauce with oregano,red pepper, and white colby cheese.  I did some research and found out that Conte also makes Furmano's brand.
This past year i asked for (and received) cardboard cups of raw sauce from Mack's and Grotto.  Both sauces were watery, bitter, and had a strong oregano kick.   I purchased Furmano's original pizza sauce and duplicated the taste of the raw sauces by watering it down and adding a lot of oregano and a pinch of red pepper.  I also had a slightly better result with Red Pack tomato puree treated the same way.  However, when cooked it lost the familiar tang of Mack's pizza.

This summer, I went to Bova Foods and bought three 107 oz. cans of Gangi heavy sauce with basil.  The taste and consistency is identical to any brand of tomato paste.  But when watered down, hit with a heavy hand of oregano, and a pinch of black pepper - it emerges from the oven with that distinct sweet and tangy flavor.  Amazing stuff.   I have had great success using the sauce frozen in smaller conainers - no loss of flavor.

I go to Mack and Manco Too, in Somers Point, NJ, once a week and the sauce is dead on.  A crazy thing about M&M2 is that they open and hand stretch their doughs two at a time!

[norma427]

A poster on another pizza site stated that he worked for a pizzeria that made a Grotto's clone in Delaware. They used Conte pizza sauce with oregano,red pepper, and white colby cheese.  I did some research and found out that Conte also makes Furmano's brand.
This past year i asked for (and received) cardboard cups of raw sauce from Mack's and Grotto.  Both sauces were watery, bitter, and had a strong oregano kick.   I purchased Furmano's original pizza sauce and duplicated the taste of the raw sauces by watering it down and adding a lot of oregano and a pinch of red pepper.  I also had a slightly better result with Red Pack tomato puree treated the same way.  However, when cooked it lost the familiar tang of Mack's pizza.

This summer, I went to Bova Foods and bought three 107 oz. cans of Gangi heavy sauce with basil.  The taste and consistency is identical to any brand of tomato paste.  But when watered down, hit with a heavy hand of oregano, and a pinch of black pepper - it emerges from the oven with that distinct sweet and tangy flavor.  Amazing stuff.   I have had great success using the sauce frozen in smaller conainers - no loss of flavor.

I go to Mack and Manco Too, in Somers Point, NJ, once a week and the sauce is dead on.  A crazy thing about M&M2 is that they open and hand stretch their doughs two at a time!

BOARDWALKER,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your help in this thread.  I am familiar with the Furmano’s brand.  Your are quite the detective in obtaining raw sauce from Mack’s and Grotto’s.    I agree that the sauce Mack’s uses does have a bitter taste before baked on their pizzas.  I am glad you had a chance to buy some Gangi Sauce and compare it to other tomato pastes.  This will help other people that can’t get the Gangi sauce be able to prepare a sauce like the Mack’s.  I had thought while trying to compare the Gangi to Walmart paste, I had thought it tasted about the same, but since I was only one person doing the comparison, I didn’t know if I was right.  I was also intrigued how the tomato sauce changes after the sauce is baked into pizza.

I never saw any of the piemen opening two skins at once and I would really like to see that.  That is crazy.  I wonder how they got their opening skills. 

Do you think when you make your pizzas that white colby cheese does give your pizzas a taste like Mack’s pies?  We still are trying to find a cheese like Mack’s or M&M’s.  There is a certain zing to their cheese, whatever it is.

If you have time and want to, I think everyone would like to see pictures of your pies.

Thanks again for helping to be able to make a pie like this. 

Norma

[ERASMO]

I have seen them open two doughs at a time at the Wildwood Macks.  Would that mean a high oil content in the dough recipe?

[Pete-zza]

I have seen them open two doughs at a time at the Wildwood Macks.  Would that mean a high oil content in the dough recipe?

ERASMO,

It is hard to say. Extensibility is a function of so many different things, including the type of flour, the hydration level, the way the dough is made, whether oil is used in the dough and how much, and how the dough is fermented and for how long. This makes it difficult to pinpoint any single factor. However, from my experimentation at home, I thought that hydration was an important factor and also getting a robust dough. Since I played around with low hydration values, I found it difficult using only my KitchenAid stand mixer, even with modest amounts of oil, to get a particularly robust dough that held up to some pretty rough handling and could be tossed and spun with relative ease. As I reported elsewhere, I ended up using a combination of my 14-cup Cuisinart food processor and my KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook to make the dough. I also apportioned the water and oil such that the combination was around 60%.

I think the answer may be in achieving the proper relative amounts of water and oil in the dough. If we were to discover that there is no oil in the dough, then I would point the finger at hydration, particularly low hydration, even with the Kyrol high-gluten flour. Having a good mixer would also be a big factor in getting a quality dough that stands up well to handling. Maybe using a Bosch mixer in a home setting would come close to emulating a commercial stand mixer such as used at Mack's.

Peter

[BOARDWALKER]

There is a photo of two doughs being opened on the website: MackandMancoPizzaToo.com
  

[norma427]

There is a photo of two doughs being opened on the website: MackandMancoPizzaToo.com
  

BOARDWALKER,

Thanks for the photo of two doughs being opened at once.    I would like to see that in person. This is the link you provided.  I know ERASMO did see two doughs being opened at once.

http://mackandmancopizzatoo.com/

Norma

[fireman117]

Norma,

Did you ever figure out the supplier for the ACME Cheddar? If you think it's made in WI I would be willing to do some detective work. I could call/ask around, and see if anyone knows anything. If the ACME is a private brand and made here, my guess is there’s lots of it being made. Other wise it would not be economical to manufacture. Just have to figure out locally. Maybe by good old taste testing, if nothing else.

Last night I went to "The Outpost" (a snazzy mostly organic grocer here), and found several versions of "white cheddar", $ including 2 organic ones made with raw milk. $$$!

They are made here and are hand cut so I think the dairy will ship you small quantities if you want to give 'em a try.

The brand names are "Beechwood" https://www.beechwoodcheese.com/store/comersus_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=3

and "Cedar Grove",
http://my.execpc.com/~cgcheese/MailOrders.html

I don’t know about Beechwood, but I’ve used the Cedar Grove whole milk mozzarella in the past and it’s quite good.

Might be worth a try, an option to the elusive ACME.

I also found out from the cheese guy at Star that, (and I'm sure you know this), the "white" cheddar is mainly an east coast thing. He also said that the color added does not change the taste or texture, so you might want to consider trying out the various WI “yellow” versions for testing, and if you find something you like, see if they would be willing to make up some “white” for you. Just an idea.

Could you explain the “poppy seed” thing if you have a moment?

Well I have to go home and make my faux Mack’s (with the mozzarella) now for the guests.

I’ll post some pics tomorrow. (Unless it’s a disaster)!

Eric

[norma427]

Eric,

At Reply 419 is where I posted about the reply from Schreiber Foods for Acme cheese  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg104204.html#msg104204

and at Reply 467  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg108565.html#msg108565 I posted I had emailed Jim Jirschele about getting cheddar cheese like Acme, but never received a reply. 
Jim Jirschele had told me in another telephone conversation that he would check to see if there were any other cheese that would be about the same as the Acme cheese across the country.

Every type of white cheddar I have tried so far has tasted good on a clone Mack’s, but they are all different when tasted and then baked on a pie.  I think we will have to try to find the real Mack’s cheese at some point, to be able to come up with an exact cheese taste of Mack’s pies.

This is where Peter posted about the “poppy seed” trick and how to use it. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.msg59335.html#msg59335

Good luck with your Mack’s clone. 

Norma

[fireman117]

Hi All,

Here's the first attempt. But with the mozzarella I had on hand. We all thought it turned out real nice. But of course no one's going to criticize the cook!

The crust was very easy to stretch out, but as you can see I can't seem to figure out how to flatten out that edge.  I was also surprised how much oven spring there was considering the 3 day refridgerator rise.  But anyway it tasted pretty good, slid right off the paddle, and the smoke alarm only went off once.

Norma,
Next time I'm going to try your recipe fro the link you posted.

The other pizza I made for the gang was nothing more than pesto, sun dried tomatoes, mozzarella, and a little grated Romano cheese. For some reason it was a big hit.

Sorry about the horrible photography on the close ups.

Eric

[fireman117]

Whoops I blew it with the pictures. Here they are

[norma427]

Hi All,

Here's the first attempt. But with the mozzarella I had on hand. We all thought it turned out real nice. But of course no one's going to criticize the cook!

The crust was very easy to stretch out, but as you can see I can't seem to figure out how to flatten out that edge.  I was also surprised how much oven spring there was considering the 3 day refridgerator rise.  But anyway it tasted pretty good, slid right off the paddle, and the smoke alarm only went off once.

Norma,
Next time I'm going to try your recipe fro the link you posted.

The other pizza I made for the gang was nothing more than pesto, sun dried tomatoes, mozzarella, and a little grated Romano cheese. For some reason it was a big hit.

Sorry about the horrible photography on the close ups.

Eric

Eric,

Your first attempt does look very tasty!    It is up to you if you want a flatten edge or not.  If I hadn’t really pressed on the whole rim, I think my pies would have also gotten a bigger rim.  When I watched the piemen on the videos and in person, they really press the edges of their dough, with their fingertips.

You made me laugh when you said your smoke alarm only went off once.  I had the same problem with the one pie I made.  When I tried to slide the 16" pizza onto the 16" baking stone, I misjudged it and part of the rim was off the baking stone. By that time the dough was stuck to the stone and mozzarella dripped onto my elements.  I also had all my smoke alarms going off. 

I believe any pizza that is made at home is much better than most pizzas that can be bought.  You did a great job!

Thanks for posting pictures of your pie.  I would eat a slice of your pie in a NY minute. 

Norma

[benfranklin]

As far as Grotto's is concerned, I've heard several stories from different sources that Grotto's is an offshoot of Mack's. They were either related or business partners. That's why there is no crossover in coverage areas.
Several years back we had a local pizza joint that made Grotto's clones. According to one of the guys that ran the place they were also an offshoot of Grotto's and had an agreement that Grotto's would not open a store within 10 miles of them. He also gave me a sample of their cheese to taste and said it was a cheddar mixture but wouldn't elaborate any further. They closed down several years ago.
I got to talking to the manager of a Grotto's about a year ago since he was trying to impress me with his pizza knowledge. Said the cheese is a combination of 4 or 5 cheddars and that's why it's so hard to duplicate.
You can now buy jars of Grotto's own pizza  sauce and their cheese in most Grottos. The block of cheese you buy from Grottos is only one component of the mixture but I believe it is the most important component that gives it that distinctive taste. It's pretty strong on only takes a handful as compared to several handfuls of the other cheddars.

[norma427]

As far as Grotto's is concerned, I've heard several stories from different sources that Grotto's is an offshoot of Mack's. They were either related or business partners. That's why there is no crossover in coverage areas.
Several years back we had a local pizza joint that made Grotto's clones. According to one of the guys that ran the place they were also an offshoot of Grotto's and had an agreement that Grotto's would not open a store within 10 miles of them. He also gave me a sample of their cheese to taste and said it was a cheddar mixture but wouldn't elaborate any further. They closed down several years ago.
I got to talking to the manager of a Grotto's about a year ago since he was trying to impress me with his pizza knowledge. Said the cheese is a combination of 4 or 5 cheddars and that's why it's so hard to duplicate.
You can now buy jars of Grotto's own pizza  sauce and their cheese in most Grottos. The block of cheese you buy from Grottos is only one component of the mixture but I believe it is the most important component that gives it that distinctive taste. It's pretty strong on only takes a handful as compared to several handfuls of the other cheddars.

benfranklin,

Welcome to the forum. 
I wondered before if there was any connection to Grotto’s and Mack’s after a customer of mine tasted a slice of one of the clones I made and said it tasted just like Grotto’s pizza.  I am not sure, but think that is when I was using the State Brand of sharp cheddar.  He even came back about a month later and asked if I was making those pies that tasted like Grotto’s.  I told him no, that I was just experimenting with the Mack’s type of pizza.  Steve (Ev) was even there both times at market when that man came by.  I had read somewhere on the web that Grotto’s uses a part cheddar and mozzarella blend.  I don’t know how true that is. 

That was nice that the manager of Grotto’s gave you a slice of cheese to taste.  I can imagine if there is a blend of 4 or 5 cheddars, that is why Mack’s cheese is so hard to duplicate.  I might have to try mixing cheddars to see if the mixed cheedars can give a better flavor like Mack’s cheese. 

Thanks for saying a block of cheese can be bought from Grotto’s.  I don’t know if I will ever be able to get near Grotto’s, but if I am, I will try to purchase some cheese. 

Thanks so much for your help on this thread.    In my opinion if we can ever get the cheese right, this will help a lot.

Did you ever make a pie with Grotto’s cheese and see what the taste of the cheese tastes like, after it is baked?   There is something about Mack’s cheese that does have a different tang when baked, that I never tasted on any other pizza before. 

Norma

[benfranklin]

Yes, Norma, I've tried both Grotto's cheese and sauce on homemade pies and there's no question they are the real deal. But the cheese, as stated, is only the tangy component of the cheddar mix. But that is probably the hardest part of the mix to find. Tastes like no other cheese I've bought from stores and I've tried a lot of cheddar brands.
I haven't had Mack's in over 40 years but I still remember that taste! I believe Grotto's and Macks have a different crust which makes a difference in the overall taste of the pizza. There's a rumor going around the Delaware Beaches that Grotto's uses lard in their crusts. There are several Grotto's in PA and several in northern Delaware if you know anyone going to those areas. C'mon, all your PA shoppers travel to Delaware to enjoy the sales tax free shopping! :-)