Author Topic: NJ Boardwalk Pizza  (Read 188348 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #600 on: April 12, 2011, 11:05:05 PM »
more pictures

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #601 on: April 12, 2011, 11:07:46 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #602 on: April 12, 2011, 11:12:01 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #603 on: April 13, 2011, 12:37:43 AM »
These are the two videos of me trying to throw the dough.  I sure canít throw dough, but this will give anyone that is interested,  how well this dough could be thrown.



and



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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #604 on: April 13, 2011, 09:42:22 AM »
Norma,

I'm glad to see that you got such good results with your latest Mack's clone. It certainly fits within the range of "looks" of Mack's pizzas that we have seen in various photos since August, 2009 when this thread started. Or at least I could have been fooled, especially looking at the photo of your pizza with the Mack's pizza box as a backdrop. I'm also glad to see that you finally were able to make an 18" Mack's clone. I would imagine that your tasters were impressed by that. I noticed also that you placed a screen under the baking Mack's clone. Was that just a precautionary measure or was the bottom of the crust browning too fast? Also, how long did you let the dough cold ferment before using? And did you end up using the five-cheese blend that you contemplated using for the latest pie? Finally, did you detect a flavor difference that could be attributed to using the canola oil this time rather than the olive oil?

With all the twists and turns and the large number of posts in this thread, it was hard to remember what led to the suggestions I proposed in Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg112760.html#msg112760. I suspected that the suggestions were extensions of one of my previous Mack's clone formulations. That turned out to be the case. The suggestions were an extension of the dough formulation that I posted at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472. It would certainly be nice to learn someday whether we have been on the right trail. You might recall, for example, that when we first started to work on this project in earnest, some of us were guessing that the Mack's dough was a high hydration dough.

Peter

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #605 on: April 13, 2011, 10:50:29 AM »
Norma,

I'm glad to see that you got such good results with your latest Mack's clone. It certainly fits within the range of "looks" of Mack's pizzas that we have seen in various photos since August, 2009 when this thread started. Or at least I could have been fooled, especially looking at the photo of your pizza with the Mack's pizza box as a backdrop. I'm also glad to see that you finally were able to make an 18" Mack's clone. I would imagine that your tasters were impressed by that. I noticed also that you placed a screen under the baking Mack's clone. Was that just a precautionary measure or was the bottom of the crust browning too fast? Also, how long did you let the dough cold ferment before using? And did you end up using the five-cheese blend that you contemplated using for the latest pie? Finally, did you detect a flavor difference that could be attributed to using the canola oil this time rather than the olive oil?

With all the twists and turns and the large number of posts in this thread, it was hard to remember what led to the suggestions I proposed in Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg112760.html#msg112760. I suspected that the suggestions were extensions of one of my previous Mack's clone formulations. That turned out to be the case. The suggestions were an extension of the dough formulation that I posted at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472. It would certainly be nice to learn someday whether we have been on the right trail. You might recall, for example, that when we first started to work on this project in earnest, some of us were guessing that the Mack's dough was a high hydration dough.

Peter

Peter,

I was also glad I got good results with the current formula.  I know so many different pictures have been posted on the web of Mackís pizza and also different pictures I took. There can be a big range of different looks, but when eating a real Mackís pizza, the taste of the crust is always the same, at least to me.  I was also glad to finally make a 18" Mackís pizza.  It wasnít hard, since the skin was easy to open.  I donít think my taste testers noticed how big the pie was, because I made so many different test doughs in different sizes.  

I only placed a screen under the pie near the end of the bake, because I thought the bottom was browning before the top of the pizza looked finished.  I donít know if I would have needed the screen, but I didnít want the bottom crust to burn.  

The dough was made Sunday and left to cold ferment until yesterday afternoon.  I wanted to see if a dough ball could stay looking the same, after a two day cold ferment.  The formula seemed to work out okay for a 2 day cold ferment.  Every time I had visited Mackís pizza, I watched the dough balls sitting at all different room temperatures and they never look like they over ferment.  I always wondered why that was.  

Where I wanted to see why things werenít working out the way I wanted I posted at Reply 491 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg112747.html#msg112747   I was stumped in that post of what to try next.  Then you responded in the next post, what I might try.  That is what eventually led me to try the formula I did.  If it wasnít for your post, I donít know what I would have tried next.  You always seem to know what to try.  Your post of what you tried at Reply 307 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 was almost like the formula I used.  I believe you put us on the right trail for the formula for a Mackís pizza.  I donít think we will ever know what formula Mackís uses to make their dough.  I remember we thought at first that the formula for Mackís dough might be a high hydration dough.  I donít really know what the Canola oil did to the formula and final pizza, but it seemed to work.  Did you ever try out Canola oil in formulas something like this, and if you did, did you notice any difference in the dough or final taste of the crust?

I did use the five-cheese blend, and it almost tasted when baked, like a real Mackís pizza cheese.

I saved one slice to reheat today or tomorrow.  I will see how the slice tastes reheated.  Since I did use ADM flour, I think the flour also helped the pizza.

Thanks again, for all your help on this project!  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 10:56:31 AM by norma427 »
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #606 on: April 13, 2011, 01:55:10 PM »
Norma,

That is a nice looking pie.  However, i have a Mack and Manco's once a week in the winter, and a lot of Mack's in the summer.
Both sauces are much more watered down than your raw sauce.  It thickens up in the cooking process.

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #607 on: April 13, 2011, 03:11:22 PM »
Norma,

Sometimes when I am stumped, I just hit the "reset" button. Sometimes I go back to square one and read everything all over again to look for clues or other information that I may have missed. However, in this case, I did not think that that was necessary since I felt we were on the right trail. So, instead, I looked at all of your photos of Mack clone pizzas to see which ones best typified the Mack's style based on all of the photos and videos I had seen of the Mack's pizzas. This approach seemed logical since you knew and used some of the same ingredients as Mack's and you had a deck oven that could bake pizzas properly and in large sizes. Moreover, you had actually eaten Mack's pizzas several times and had a memory of how their pizzas tasted.

What would have helped me most at the time was to have a better understanding of the Mack's dough making and management "system". I knew that Mack's hours were from 11:00 AM to late at night, so I knew that their dough formulation and procedures had to fit that time window. I speculated that by using a modest amount of yeast and a relatively low hydration, the dough could be made at night and, with proper refrigeration, be usable all the next day without dramatic differences in crust flavor or other characteristics. Obviously, the pizzas made for the 11:00 AM crowd could be different than the ones made just before closing, which might help explain the many "looks" of the Mack's pizzas, but I believe the combination of a modest amount of yeast and relatively low hydration (0.30% IDY and 53% hydration in our case) would keep the fermentation in check and that the dough balls would look pretty much alike at the time of tempering just prior to use. Also, the dough balls could be opened without much fear of excessive extensibilty. It further occurred to me that because of their high volume Mack's could make their dough balls in stages, perhaps at night and early the next morning. However, I have not read or heard of anything to suggest that possibility. My only recollection is that the dough balls may be made in a nearby location and delivered to all of the Boardwalk locations. I suppose if someone cased the Mack's location for a day, starting very early in the morning, it might be possible to learn more about these aspects of the Mack's business. So, you may want to set aside your fake wig and glasses in advance of your next trip to the Boardwalk.

I should add that one advantage that Mack's has over what you do and what I and other home pizza makers do is the element of constancy. Mack's makes the same dough pretty much the same way day in and day out and in settings, including where and when the dough is made and managed and the actual Mack's location where the pizzas are sold, that are subject to some seasonal variations but otherwise quite manageable. With repetition, these factors become part of the DNA of the people who make and manage the dough.

With respect to the canola oil, I usually only use it when a recipe calls for it. Many people do not like canola oil because they think it has a fishy smell or taste. Most pizza operators tend to use soybean oil, mainly because it is the most economical oil for them to use.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #608 on: April 13, 2011, 05:18:42 PM »
Norma,

Sometimes when I am stumped, I just hit the "reset" button. Sometimes I go back to square one and read everything all over again to look for clues or other information that I may have missed. However, in this case, I did not think that that was necessary since I felt we were on the right trail. So, instead, I looked at all of your photos of Mack clone pizzas to see which ones best typified the Mack's style based on all of the photos and videos I had seen of the Mack's pizzas. This approach seemed logical since you knew and used some of the same ingredients as Mack's and you had a deck oven that could bake pizzas properly and in large sizes. Moreover, you had actually eaten Mack's pizzas several times and had a memory of how their pizzas tasted.

What would have helped me most at the time was to have a better understanding of the Mack's dough making and management "system". I knew that Mack's hours were from 11:00 AM to late at night, so I knew that their dough formulation and procedures had to fit that time window. I speculated that by using a modest amount of yeast and a relatively low hydration, the dough could be made at night and, with proper refrigeration, be usable all the next day without dramatic differences in crust flavor or other characteristics. Obviously, the pizzas made for the 11:00 AM crowd could be different than the ones made just before closing, which might help explain the many "looks" of the Mack's pizzas, but I believe the combination of a modest amount of yeast and relatively low hydration (0.30% IDY and 53% hydration in our case) would keep the fermentation in check and that the dough balls would look pretty much alike at the time of tempering just prior to use. Also, the dough balls could be opened without much fear of excessive extensibilty. It further occurred to me that because of their high volume Mack's could make their dough balls in stages, perhaps at night and early the next morning. However, I have not read or heard of anything to suggest that possibility. My only recollection is that the dough balls may be made in a nearby location and delivered to all of the Boardwalk locations. I suppose if someone cased the Mack's location for a day, starting very early in the morning, it might be possible to learn more about these aspects of the Mack's business. So, you may want to set aside your fake wig and glasses in advance of your next trip to the Boardwalk.

I should add that one advantage that Mack's has over what you do and what I and other home pizza makers do is the element of constancy. Mack's makes the same dough pretty much the same way day in and day out and in settings, including where and when the dough is made and managed and the actual Mack's location where the pizzas are sold, that are subject to some seasonal variations but otherwise quite manageable. With repetition, these factors become part of the DNA of the people who make and manage the dough.

With respect to the canola oil, I usually only use it when a recipe calls for it. Many people do not like canola oil because they think it has a fishy smell or taste. Most pizza operators tend to use soybean oil, mainly because it is the most economical oil for them to use.

Peter

Peter,

Since I never tried any of your formulas out for a Mackís clone, I didnít really know how your crust tasted or how the texture was.  I knew the formulas I had tried, just werenít right in the terms of taste and texture.  I would be interested in seeing if someone has eaten a Mackís pizza or has memories of a Mackís pizza and tries the formula I used, what they will think.  I know I have an advantage of having a deck oven to try. Sometime I might try the formula at home to see if I obtain the same results. I didnít notice any fishy smell or taste when the crust was tasted, but I might try soybean oil out in the formula I used next week to see if there is any difference in the dough or how the final pizza tastes.  I only tired canola oil because it was cheap at an ALDI food chain store near me.  

I believe Mackís might be making their doughs at either location in the basements, but I would think it would be at the location nearest the Wildwood Crest location.  I have seen their trash  and it is all bagged in black plastic trash bags (inside large trash cans), so I donít even think if I would stand in the public parking lot behind that Mackís location with my fake blond wig and sunglasses, if I have a chance to visit Mackís again, I still wouldnít know what is in those black trash bags.  Mackís other location in about the middle of the boardwalk, the trash cans can be seen easily by just walking by on the sidewalk leading up to the ramp to the boardwalk.  I didnít see any bags of flour there, but could see the Gangi cans by just walking on the sidewalk.  Mackís might be making the dough in stages.  Only an insider would know that information.  After this thread, Mackís might go to protect and serve.  I can understand that Mackís has  possibly made this same dough for many years and has figured out how to deal with all the different temperature chances and what to do about that.  

I also think the modest amount of yeast (30%) along with the (53%) hydration did work, so the dough wouldnít ferment too fast in two days. The salt amount (2.3%) seemed to make the crust also taste like a real Mack's pizza. I can understand the doughs made early would have a different look if the pizza was bought in the evening.  Maybe that is why the parbaked pizza (bought right after they opened) I bought was so nasty when I brought it home to rebake.  I still have a slice of that parbaked pizza in my freezer and look at it from time to time, to think about how badly that was done.  That parbaked slice, doesnít show any signs of fermentation or a rise in the crust from the parbake.  If anyone wants me to post a picture of that parbaked slice, I can take a picture of it. I wonder how a parbaked pizza would taste if bought in the evening and then rebaked.  It might be different.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 05:20:39 PM by norma427 »
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #609 on: April 13, 2011, 06:16:35 PM »
Norma,
Brilliant! 

Matt


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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #610 on: April 13, 2011, 06:43:25 PM »
Norma,
Brilliant! 

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for your kind words.  :) This thread has taken a long while to get the results other members and I were trying to achieve. If it wasn't for all the information and help of other members, I don't think we would have come this far. I am going to try the same formula next week (maybe with soybean oil), to see if I can get the same results.  I hope other members or guests can get the same results, if they want to try something like a Mack's pizza.

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #611 on: April 14, 2011, 12:10:59 PM »
Norma,

I forgot to ask you earlier but did you mix and knead your latest Mack's clone dough in your home stand mixer? I know from past experience with my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook that it has a tough time kneading a dough with modest hydration for an 18" pizza, even with the oil in the dough. I found that using a combination of food processor and mixer was a good solution to that problem.

It would be interesting to see how well your commercial mixer at market would work to mix and knead your latest Mack's clone dough and whether it would be closer to what Mack's produces with its commercial mixer.

Peter

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #612 on: April 14, 2011, 02:22:49 PM »
Norma,

I forgot to ask you earlier but did you mix and knead your latest Mack's clone dough in your home stand mixer? I know from past experience with my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook that it has a tough time kneading a dough with modest hydration for an 18" pizza, even with the oil in the dough. I found that using a combination of food processor and mixer was a good solution to that problem.

It would be interesting to see how well your commercial mixer at market would work to mix and knead your latest Mack's clone dough and whether it would be closer to what Mack's produces with its commercial mixer.

Peter

Peter,

I did use my home Kitchen Aid mixer to mix the dough.  I put in all the ingredients in except the oil, and mixed for a little and then added the oil before all the ingredients were incorporated.  I did use a metal spoon to help the mixture come off the sides of the mixer bowl, and also used my fingers to help the mixture come together better, before letting the dough mix on speed 2 for 6 minutes. My Kitchen Aid didnít seem to have problems with the lower hydration dough, after all the ingredients were together. I never tried to make any doughs with my food processor and Kitchen Aid mixer in combination.  I wonder if that would help mix this dough better.  I will look on this thread were you posted about using your food processor.

I would like to try and make this dough and pizza at home, incase anyone is interested in trying the Mackís pizza.  At some point I am going to try my home oven too, to see if the formula works as well in my home oven, but I wonít be able to make a 18" pizza in my home oven, because I donít have a 18" screen.

In my Hobart mixer at market, I really need to make enough for 5 dough balls (at least for previous attempts at a Mackís clone), for the mixer to mix properly, but since this formula was for a 18" pizza, maybe I wouldnít need to make that many dough balls.  I wonder how much dough I would have to mix for my Hobart mixer to be able to mix the dough properly.  I might also try that sometime, if I can figure it out.  I notice how much faster my Hobart does incorporate any ingredients, than my Kitchen Aid, but they both operate about the same, except my C-hook isnít as close to the mixer bowl in my Kitchen Aid mixer.

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #613 on: April 14, 2011, 10:11:39 PM »
I decided to reheat the slice I had saved from Tuesday on the Mackís attempt, this evening.  I also took the leftover two slices out of the freezer of the parbaked slices of the last time I visited Mackís, because I wanted to taste the cheese again.  I did taste the cheese on the parbaked slices before and after the reheat.  I heated up my oven for an hour and place all three slices on my pizza stone.  I watched how the parbaked slice baked with the cheese.  Of course the parbaked slices didnít change any since the last time I tried to do a rebaked on them.  They just sat there and did nothing, but the cheese did melt.  Another thing I wanted to look at and taste was how much oregano and pepper were on the parbaked slices of real Mackís pizza.  The reheated slice of the Mackís attempt reheated well and the taste was still like a Mackís pizza.  I tried to compare how both slices tasted with just the cheese and the only thing I could tell from that test, was the cheese on the parbaked slices tasted more buttery.  I also noticed there was more oregano than I originally thought.  I didnít eat any of the crust of the parbaked slices of the real Mackís pizza, because it looked really nasty.  I am not down at the boardwalk, but I still would throw those parbaked slices under there if I could.  :-D

Pictures of the slice of the Mackís attempt, and other pictures from the test if somehow the parbaked slices could change somehow. The first two pictures are of the slice before it was reheated.

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #614 on: April 14, 2011, 10:15:36 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #615 on: April 14, 2011, 10:38:15 PM »
Norma,

Would you mind clarifying which photos are of your clone slice and which are of the par-baked slices? You did such a good job that I am having trouble telling which slices are which from your description of the photos.

I like the idea of your saving the par-baked Mack's slices to be able to do later taste tests. Do you consider your latest cheese blend to be a worthy substitute for the Mack's cheese, or is the hunt still on?

Peter

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #616 on: April 14, 2011, 10:47:30 PM »
Norma,

Those are sure some sweet looking slices.  Someday, I really hope to visit your pizza stand!  If I do, can I smuggle in a bottle of wine?

Paul

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #617 on: April 14, 2011, 11:25:38 PM »
Norma,

Would you mind clarifying which photos are of your clone slice and which are of the par-baked slices? You did such a good job that I am having trouble telling which slices are which from your description of the photos.

I like the idea of your saving the par-baked Mack's slices to be able to do later taste tests. Do you consider your latest cheese blend to be a worthy substitute for the Mack's cheese, or is the hunt still on?

Peter

Peter,

The first two pictures are of the slices from my attempt Tuesday.  The third picture is of the real Mackís parbaked slices not reheated.  The fourth picture is a slice of the parbaked slice on the left and my attempt on the right, not reheated.  The fifth picture is the bottom of both the parbaked slices and my slice attempt, with my attempt at the top, not reheated.  The sixth picture is the two slices of Mackís parbaked slices on the left and my attempt on the right on the pizza stone.  The seventh picture is of my attempt reheated.  The eighth picture is of the parbaked Mackís slice reheated.  The ninth picture is Mackís parbaked slice showing the cheese melted, with the fork lifting the cheese.  The tenth picture is of the crust picked apart from my attempt.  

I think the cheese blend I used in the attempt Tuesday did really taste like Mackís pizza cheese, but not exactly.  I still would like to find out what kind of cheese Mackís really uses, but I might not be able to buy it, even if I know the brand and kind of white cheddar they use.  I will settle for the blend any day.  Since part of the blend was Fontina, it did give a buttery flavor to the pizza when it was baked.  I donít know, but I would like more taste testers at market to try this kind of pizza I made.  Maybe it is just me, because I really do like Mackís pizza, but from the comments I had so far from the taste testers, they really did like the attempt on Tuesday.  I guess there needs to be more experimenting to see what happens.  

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #618 on: April 14, 2011, 11:33:02 PM »
Norma,

Those are sure some sweet looking slices.  Someday, I really hope to visit your pizza stand!  If I do, can I smuggle in a bottle of wine?

Paul

Paul,

Thanks for your kind words.  I hope you get to visit my pizza stand someday too! Steve and I have a blast with the other standholders.  That is one nice thing about being at market, because you have other standholders to interact with all the time. You will have to let me know if you are coming, because I donít know if I would have this kind of pizza or not for you to try.  I would make a few batches of the formula for you to try a Mackís attempt to see if you also like this kind of pie.  You can smuggle a bottle of wine at market.  Steve and I had a couple of celebrations at market, but not too many.   :-D

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #619 on: April 14, 2011, 11:46:38 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for clarifying the photos. In a few cases, I guessed wrong before you clarified matters.

Out of curiosity, are your taste testers other standholders, or customers, or possibly some of each? And are the taste testers the same people that you use to critique your pizzas? And do they pay for the privilege?

Peter
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 12:02:07 AM by Pete-zza »


 

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