NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Can you refresh my memory on which particular Mack's clone dough formulation you used this time?

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

The good one....
Looks soooo delicious Norma. I know you're a happy girl with this one. Thanks for documenting all of this...and the sauce that you an EV worked out too!   

[norma427]

Norma,

Can you refresh my memory on which particular Mack's clone dough formulation you used this time?

Peter

Peter,

The formulation I used with KABF/VWG was the one you posted at Reply 307 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472  I then scaled the dough ball back to 20 ounces.  The one thing I did differently was I switched the olive oil with cheap vegetable oil.

I also didn’t use the same amount of IDY you did, because you did 91 hrs. of cold fermentation with your dough ball, where I only did a 2 day cold ferment with my dough ball with 0.95 grams of IDY.

Norma

[norma427]

The good one....
Looks soooo delicious Norma. I know you're a happy girl with this one. Thanks for documenting all of this...and the sauce that you an EV worked out too!   

Bob,

Thanks so much for your kind comments!    I am happy of how this recent Mack's attempt tasted, but still the cheese isn't exactly right.  I don't know how I am ever going to be able to figure that one out.    I will have to sleep on that one for awhile.  I think I prefer the attempt better than a real Mack's pizza now.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

I think I prefer the attempt better than a real Mack's pizza now.

Norma

I kinda thought so Norma...that is great. It's what this is all about, right?!! 

[norma427]

I kinda thought so Norma...that is great. It's what this is all about, right?!! 

Bob,

Really what I would have liked to do is make a decent clone Mack’s pizza, for anyone that might want to try one,  but I guess it really isn’t in the stars for that to happen.  Even after all this work by different members in this thread, it isn’t possible to get a real clone of Mack’s pizza.  We don’t have the right Nutrition Facts, not enough information about the cheese, or the dough.  These are things that probably will never happen. 

At least I learned a lot on this thread and will continue to try to make a Mack’s clone.  If that doesn’t ever happen, then it is okay with me.  At least I can make a decent different kind of pizza.  I also have to try a clone attempt in my mom’s oven again at some point in time.  I sure don’t know why that clone attempt was the best in making a pizza that did taste like a Mack’s pizza.  That still bugs me. 

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Yep, I sure do remember the atttempt you made in your mom's oven.....you were excited cause of the cheese you used and thought it was finally the right type. And maybe it still may be Norma. Like we discussed, all ovens cook differently and just maybe your mom's oven happens to cook just like Mack's oven does.
Maybe it's some mystical force thingy to help keep you coming back around to spend time at your Mom's! 

[norma427]

Yep, I sure do remember the atttempt you made in your mom's oven.....you were excited cause of the cheese you used and thought it was finally the right type. And maybe it still may be Norma. Like we discussed, all ovens cook differently and just maybe your mom's oven happens to cook just like Mack's oven does.
Maybe it's some mystical force thingy to help keep you coming back around to spend time at your Mom's! 

Bob,

You have a good memory.  I was excited that I thought I found the right cheddar. 

I have no idea how pizza bakes in Mack’s oven now and years ago made any difference with the cheese, because years ago Mack’s did use deck ovens. 

I should spend more time at my mom’s.  She is getting older.

Norma

[PowerWagonPete]

I should spend more time at my mom’s.  She is getting older.

They don't last forever, Norma.  I do have most of my mom's cookware, however.  

Maybe you should just take a break on the Mack's attempts for awhile and get back to it later.  Heck, I've been screwing around with Papa Dino's clones off and on for years.  LOL  

[Ev]

Maybe you should just take a break on the Mack's attempts for awhile and get back to it later.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[norma427]

They don't last forever, Norma.  I do have most of my mom's cookware, however.  

Maybe you should just take a break on the Mack's attempts for awhile and get back to it later.  Heck, I've been screwing around with Papa Dino's clones off and on for years.  LOL  

Pete,

I know mom’s don’t last forever and I have a special mom too.  I was up at her home last evening until after midnight.   

I know I should probably take a break from trying to make this kind of pizza, but my curiosity always gets to me on how I can make it differently.    I did give it a break a many times over the 2 year period.

Norma

[norma427]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve,

Lol, I know you like the Mack's attempts.     I don't think I will ever get it exactly right, but we have fun trying.   

Norma

[PowerWagonPete]

Pete,

I know mom’s don’t last forever and I have a special mom too.  I was up at her home last evening until after midnight.    

I know I should probably take a break from trying to make this kind of pizza, but my curiosity always gets to me on how I can make it differently.    I did give it a break a many times over the 2 year period.

Norma

My problem always seems to be that I still have some cheese left over I need to use up.  LOL  

[norma427]

My problem always seems to be that I still have some cheese left over I need to use up.  LOL  

Pete,

It is good you have some leftover cheese that you need to use up.  That is a great way to do more pizza experiments.   

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

My problem always seems to be that I still have some cheese left over I need to use up.  LOL  

Wish I had that problem.  Cheesy pies are great but I have a tendency to over cheese.Some of my better pizza have turned out when I make a conscience effort to hold back on the cheese.
This is one reason why I am intrigued with these Macks experiments. That last one Norma made appears to be so sparse(economical too)of cheese yet it bakes up looking rather cheesy. I suppose it's caused by the sauce going on top....it's a great type of pizza. I'm a big fan of extra sauce too.

[norma427]

Wish I had that problem.  Cheesy pies are great but I have a tendency to over cheese.Some of my better pizza have turned out when I make a conscience effort to hold back on the cheese.
This is one reason why I am intrigued with these Macks experiments. That last one Norma made appears to be so sparse(economical too)of cheese yet it bakes up looking rather cheesy. I suppose it's caused by the sauce going on top....it's a great type of pizza. I'm a big fan of extra sauce too.

Bob,

I think the Mack's attempts looks so cheesy because of the higher fat content of cheddars.  Even a smaller amount of cheddar still gives a gooey cheese after the bake.  The way the sauce is applied, also helps in my opinion.  A blend of cheddars, or one cheddar, does have a different taste then all mozzarella when baked on a pizza.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I took the Mack's clone dough formulation that I set forth in Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 and revised it so that it would reflect your recent changes. Specifically, I increased the amount of IDY to 0.259% (to reflect your increase in the amount of yeast), I replaced the olive oil with vegetable oil, and I scaled the formulation down to 20 ounces rather than 21 ounces. The 0.259% IDY is for a 2-day cold fermentation scenario. That strikes me as a reasonable fermentation window even if Mack's is using something different.

I also increased the bowl residue compensation from 1% (which I used because I used a combination of food processor and stand mixer to make the dough) to 1.5%. As before, you should scale the final dough batch that comes out of your mixer to 20 ounces. The thickness factor for the dough formulation is 0.07859 (as was the case with your last Mack's clone dough). I also converted the formula flour to a blend of King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and vital wheat gluten (the Hodgson Mill brand of VWG) except that this time I used 14% in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ as the protein content of the blend. The 14% number is the protein content of the Kyrol high-gluten flour.

The modified Mack's clone formulation is quite close to what you last used but may not seem so because I scaled the formulation down to 20 ounces and I slightly altered the composition of the flour blend.

Here is the modified Mack's clone dough formulation:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%): Water (55%): IDY (0.259%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (163.759%):

351.43 g  |  12.4 oz | 0.77 lbs 193.29 g  |  6.82 oz | 0.43 lbs 0.91 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp 7.03 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp 17.57 g | 0.62 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.87 tsp | 1.29 tbsp 5.27 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 575.5 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A

*The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 343 grams (12.1 ounces) of KABF and 8.5 grams (0.30 ounces) of Hodgson Mill VWG (a bit over 2 3/4 teaspoons), based on a protein content of 14% and using the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator
Note: Dough is for a single 18" pizza; the above dough weight should be scaled back to 20 ounces, with a corresponding thickness factor (TF) of 0.07859; bowl residue compensation is 1.5%.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I took the Mack's clone dough formulation that I set forth in Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 and revised it so that it would reflect your recent changes. Specifically, I increased the amount of IDY to 0.259% (to reflect your increase in the amount of yeast), I replaced the olive oil with vegetable oil, and I scaled the formulation down to 20 ounces rather than 21 ounces. The 0.259% IDY is for a 2-day cold fermentation scenario. That strikes me as a reasonable fermentation window even if Mack's is using something different.

I also increased the bowl residue compensation from 1% (which I used because I used a combination of food processor and stand mixer to make the dough) to 1.5%. As before, you should scale the final dough batch that comes out of your mixer to 20 ounces. The thickness factor for the dough formulation is 0.07859 (as was the case with your last Mack's clone dough). I also converted the formula flour to a blend of King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and vital wheat gluten (the Hodgson Mill brand of VWG) except that this time I used 14% in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ as the protein content of the blend. The 14% number is the protein content of the Kyrol high-gluten flour.

The modified Mack's clone formulation is quite close to what you last used but may not seem so because I scaled the formulation down to 20 ounces and I slightly altered the composition of the flour blend.

Here is the modified Mack's clone dough formulation:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%): Water (55%): IDY (0.259%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (163.759%):

351.43 g  |  12.4 oz | 0.77 lbs 193.29 g  |  6.82 oz | 0.43 lbs 0.91 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp 7.03 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp 17.57 g | 0.62 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.87 tsp | 1.29 tbsp 5.27 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 575.5 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A

*The Flour Blend comprises 343 grams (12.1 ounces) of KABF and 8.5 grams (0.30 ounces) of Hodgson Mill VWG (a bit over 2 3/4 teaspoons), based on a protein content of 14% and using the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator
Note: Dough is for a single 18" pizza; the above dough weight should be scaled back to 20 ounces, with a corresponding thickness factor (TF) of 0.07859; bowl residue compensation is 1.5%.

peter

Peter,

Thank you for revising the Mack’s clone dough formulation to reflect my recent changes.  Thanks for also posting the TF you got from your calculations.  I see the formulation doesn’t look the same.  Thanks for explaining why. 

If I find time this coming Sunday, I will give it a try.  Even though Mack’s might not do a 2 day cold fermentation, we liked the taste of the crust better from the longer cold fermentation.  I guess this formulation is still in the realm of a NY style pizza, even with the higher oil amount.

Norma

[Meatballs]

Norma,

As you know, I've been following this thread for some time now and have tried some of your pizza recipes for the Mack's clone.  I even served one to my "special Mom".  I'll be trying your latest recipe again soon.  I really liked the earlier attempts and can't wait to see your further improvements.  But, I'm sure my pizza will be different from yours and different from Mack's, and Macks may vary by day, week, season, etc.

I've been brewing beer for over 18 years and, without bragging, am considered very accomplished by more that a few professional brewers with international reputations.  Beer, like pizza, can not be cloned completely.  The same recipe made by two different brewers and brew systems will differ in the end product.  Beers that are known for their consistency can only be accomplished by blending different batches, practical only on the very large scale.

What I'm trying to say here is that while you may not feel that you have cloned the Macks pizza to your specifications, does not mean that you have not produced a spectacularly close representation of a Macks style.  Your sensory evaluation of pizzas is far more sophisticated than the average connoisseur and your ability to discern fine differences in taste and texture lead you to be less than fully satisfied with your efforts.  I know, I used to try to clone beers, everybody said they were on, but, I knew where I differed or failed to nail a certain characteristic and was rarely happy.  Eventually I stopped even trying to clone, what I do now is taste a beer and make one similar in style, color, basic flavor, carbonation, etc., but, I put my stamp on it and vary some aspect of the product to the way I think things should be. I make a better beer, at least to me. 

Norma, if you are burnt out on the cloning effort then... stop cloning.  Take all you have learned, all you have achieved and make YOUR Macks pizza.  Your interpretation of a Macks, a pizza one that you are passionate about.  This is what I eventually did with beer and the freedom was awesome.  I had learned so much cloning, brewing to style that I was able then to break the rules with abandon and know the final product would be awesome.  You have learned the rules, now break every last one of them and use them as techniques to achieve a Norma's that everybody else will want to clone. 

Ron