NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[Chicago Bob]

Very nice write up Ron.
I too am waiting for when Norma breaks loose and throws down a spetacular "Norma's Special" 

[Ev]

You know, she already does that every week. The Macks project is just a little diversion to keep Norma from getting bored.

[Chicago Bob]

You know, she already does that every week. The Macks project is just a little diversion to keep Norma from getting bored.

I really need to take a drive up that way one of these days and try that Market pizza.

[norma427]

Norma,

As you know, I've been following this thread for some time now and have tried some of your pizza recipes for the Mack's clone.  I even served one to my "special Mom".  I'll be trying your latest recipe again soon.  I really liked the earlier attempts and can't wait to see your further improvements.  But, I'm sure my pizza will be different from yours and different from Mack's, and Macks may vary by day, week, season, etc.

I've been brewing beer for over 18 years and, without bragging, am considered very accomplished by more that a few professional brewers with international reputations.  Beer, like pizza, can not be cloned completely.  The same recipe made by two different brewers and brew systems will differ in the end product.  Beers that are known for their consistency can only be accomplished by blending different batches, practical only on the very large scale.

What I'm trying to say here is that while you may not feel that you have cloned the Macks pizza to your specifications, does not mean that you have not produced a spectacularly close representation of a Macks style.  Your sensory evaluation of pizzas is far more sophisticated than the average connoisseur and your ability to discern fine differences in taste and texture lead you to be less than fully satisfied with your efforts.  I know, I used to try to clone beers, everybody said they were on, but, I knew where I differed or failed to nail a certain characteristic and was rarely happy.  Eventually I stopped even trying to clone, what I do now is taste a beer and make one similar in style, color, basic flavor, carbonation, etc., but, I put my stamp on it and vary some aspect of the product to the way I think things should be. I make a better beer, at least to me. 

Norma, if you are burnt out on the cloning effort then... stop cloning.  Take all you have learned, all you have achieved and make YOUR Macks pizza.  Your interpretation of a Macks, a pizza one that you are passionate about.  This is what I eventually did with beer and the freedom was awesome.  I had learned so much cloning, brewing to style that I was able then to break the rules with abandon and know the final product would be awesome.  You have learned the rules, now break every last one of them and use them as techniques to achieve a Norma's that everybody else will want to clone. 

Ron

Ron,

Thank you very much for you kind words.  If it wouldn’t been for Peter and other members that have helped on this thread, I sure don’t think I would have been able to even make a decent Mack’s clone.  When I started on this thread I had no idea of where to start and sure didn’t even understand a lot about how ingredients and hydration can change a pizza.  I didn’t even try out Peter’s formulation for the his dough for a long while.  I am  glad that you even served one of your Mack’s attempt to your “special Mom”.    I understand your pizza will be different from mine and also different than Mack’s.  I think we have seen how Mack’s pizzas can vary with different posters on this thread and on the Mack’s cheese thread reporting different things.

I want to congratulate you for brewing beer for over 18 years.  That is quite an accomplishment too.  I can imagine how good you beers are and wish I could taste some.  I have watched Steve brew some beers and he has told me it is hard to try and clone another beer.  Steve told me just recently that some people on his brewing forum all tried to clone the same beer and then sent their beers to different members.  I enjoyed that story from Steve.  I didn’t know that beers that are know for their consistency can only be accomplished by blending different batches, practical only on the very large scale. 

I don’t feel like I have really cloned Mack’s pizza to my specifications.  I never thought about how trying to clone beers and pizza might be linked in how everyone perceives something different even if it is close. 

I am not really burnt out on the cloning effect, but do get frustrated sometimes that trying so many different things and then not getting the results I want.  I don’t even know all the rules of pizza yet because I am still learning so much about all kinds of pizzas.  I sure don’t know if any members want to use what I did in my last Mack’s attempt, but to Steve and me the Mack’s clone attempt did taste good.  There are so many formulations on this forum I never even tried.  Maybe someday I will be able to come up with a good formulation that other members might want to try. 

Norma

[norma427]

I really need to take a drive up that way one of these days and try that Market pizza.

Bob,

Come on up anytime.  Steve and I would enjoy seeing you and letting you try any kind of pizzas you want. 

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Bob,

Come on up anytime.  Steve and I would enjoy seeing you and letting you try any kind of pizzas you want. 

Norma

Norma,
Thank you, you both are very kind. 

[Pete-zza]

Thank you for revising the Mack’s clone dough formulation to reflect my recent changes.  Thanks for also posting the TF you got from your calculations.  I see the formulation doesn’t look the same.  Thanks for explaining why.  

Norma,

By way of further explanation, what you did by increasing the amount of IDY to 0.95 grams was to change the total dough formulation to the following:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%): Water (55%): IDY (0.25863%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (163.75863%):

367.32 g  |  12.96 oz | 0.81 lbs 202.03 g  |  7.13 oz | 0.45 lbs 0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp 7.35 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 18.37 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.04 tsp | 1.35 tbsp 5.51 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp 601.52 g | 21.22 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A

* The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 358.46 grams (12.64 ounces) of King Arthur Bread flour and 8.86 grams (0.31 ounces) of Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten (2.95 t.), based on a total protein content of 14.0% and using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/
Note: The above formulation includes 1% bowl residue compensation based on a 21+-ounce dough ball (not 20 ounces)

If you prefer, you can use the above formulation instead of the last one I gave you in Reply 1497. As you can see, it has more dough, so you will have to trim back more of the dough than in the formulation I gave you in Reply 1497 to get it down to 20 ounces. You will also note that I replaced the olive oil with the vegetable oil. The value for the soybean oil does not change because the conversion factor for the soybean oil is the same, when rounded to the accuracy of the expanded dough calculating tool, as for the olive oil. You will also note that I included the new numbers for the KABF and the Hodgson Mill VWG based on the 14% protein number. If you want to go back to the 14.2% number that I originally used, feel free to do so.

The advantage of the most recent dough formulation I gave you in Reply 1497 is that it is more user friendly when it comes to making future modifications and is more in line with the way I develop dough formulations. But there is nothing wrong with the above dough formulation. It is just narrowly targeted to the specific dough formulation you used the last time.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

By way of further explanation, what you did by increasing the amount of IDY to 0.95 grams was to change the total dough formulation to the following:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%): Water (55%): IDY (0.25863%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (163.75863%):

367.32 g  |  12.96 oz | 0.81 lbs 202.03 g  |  7.13 oz | 0.45 lbs 0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp 7.35 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 18.37 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.04 tsp | 1.35 tbsp 5.51 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp 601.52 g | 21.22 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A

* The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 358.46 grams (12.64 ounces) of King Arthur Bread flour and 8.86 grams (0.31 ounces) of Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten (2.95 t.), based on a total protein content of 14.0% and using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/
Note: The above formulation includes 1% bowl residue compensation based on a 21+-ounce dough ball (not 20 ounces)

If you prefer, you can use the above formulation instead of the last one I gave you in Reply 1497. As you can see, it has more dough, so you will have to trim back more of the dough than in the formulation I gave you in Reply 1497 to get it down to 20 ounces. You will also note that I replaced the olive oil with the vegetable oil. The value for the soybean oil does not change because the conversion factor for the soybean oil is the same, when rounded to the accuracy of the expanded dough calculating tool, as for the olive oil. You will also note that I included the new numbers for the KABF and the Hodgson Mill VWG based on the 14% protein number. If you want to go back to the 14.2% number that I originally used, feel free to do so.

The advantage of the most recent dough formulation I gave you in Reply 1497 is that it is more user friendly when it comes to making future modifications and is more in line with the way I develop dough formulations. But there is nothing wrong with the above dough formulation. It is just narrowly targeted to the specific dough formulation you used the last time.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining more about when I increased the amount of IDY to 0.95 grams, I changed the whole formulation to what you now set-forth in the new Mack’s clone formulation.  Different times I use different amounts of IDY in a formulation because of trying to control a dough for a certain length of time when I want to try and ferment the dough differently.  I didn’t realize by just changing one thing (like the yeast amount) that it would change the whole formulation so much. 

I see the new formulation has more dough.  I am not sure which is the best formulation to try next now.  I think you have managed to confuse me in which one would be the best one to try. 

Thanks for your time in figuring all of the calculations out and trying to explain to me (or any other member)  what you have done. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

You changed the dough formulation given at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 by increasing the dough weight by only 0.22 grams (0.95-0.73 grams = 0.22 grams). That's all. Where the problem arises is when a member who cannot make an 18" pizza in his or her oven asks you (or me or anyone else) how to modify the dough formulation that you used for your 18" pizza to make say, a 14" pizza or a 16" pizza. The dough formulation that I came up with in Reply 1497 allows that person to do that. Otherwise, the member would have to manipulate your actual numbers and do a fair amount of math to come up with the right final numbers, which is something that many of them may not be able to do. That is why I came up with the formulation in Reply 1497. That is the formulation that I would suggest members, you included, use and modify, if needed, for other sizes, using the Thickness Factor option (with a thickness factor of 0.07859).

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

You changed the dough formulation given at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 by increasing the dough weight by only 0.22 grams (0.95-0.73 grams = 0.22 grams). That's all. Where the problem arises is when a member who cannot make an 18" pizza in his or her oven asks you (or me or anyone else) how to modify the dough formulation that you used for your 18" pizza to make say, a 14" pizza or a 16" pizza. The dough formulation that I came up with in Reply 1497 allows that person to do that. Otherwise, the member would have to manipulate your actual numbers and do a fair amount of math to come up with the right final numbers, which is something that many of them may not be able to do. That is why I came up with the formulation in Reply 1497. That is the formulation that I would suggest members, you included, use and modify, if needed, for other sizes, using the Thickness Factor option (with a thickness factor of 0.07859).

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining more.  I didn’t think about if a member would want to make a smaller pizza and how that would change the formulation.  I can understand that most members could not do the math to change the formulation.

I will try out the formulation you set-forth in Reply 1497 so as not to complicate things more.  I know I wouldn’t be able to do the math if I would want to make a smaller pizza for something like my mom‘s oven, or if another member asked me how to do it.   

Norma   

[norma427]

I mixed another Mack’s clone attempt late yesterday afternoon, using Peter formulation at Reply 1497 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg214914.html#msg214914  with KABF and VWG. The final dough temperature was 77.6 degrees F.  This dough ball is going to be fermented for about 2 days.

If anyone wants to know what method I used to mix this dough just ask.

Norma

[Ev]

Ooh goody, another Macks pie! 

[Chicago Bob]

Ooh goody, another Macks pie! 

You're lucky Steve......Norma spoils you! 

[norma427]

Ooh goody, another Macks pie! 

Steve,

Lol, I know you like the Mack's attempts.     I guess we will try the Nasonville 3 months old aged cheddar again.  The sauce is already prepared from you doing that last week.  It should be a breeze this week.   

Just so we don't get pizzaed out again this week.   

Norma

[norma427]

You're lucky Steve......Norma spoils you! 

Bob,

Steve also spoils me with bringing me different ingredients to try and also lets me bring dough balls to bake in his WFO.  He even gives me free beer to try.    I am also lucky to have Steve as a friend.     Maybe someday I might try a Mack's attempt in Steve's WFO. 

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Steve,



Just so we don't get pizzaed out again this week.   

Norma

I don't see where the week ever starts or stops with you guys....you're always making pizza's! 
Bet that next Mack's will be right with that sauce from last week. Mmmmm.....

[norma427]

I don't see where the week ever starts or stops with you guys....you're always making pizza's! 
Bet that next Mack's will be right with that sauce from last week. Mmmmm.....

Bob,

I think Steve and I are what you might call pizza nuts.    It is true we are always are trying new things.   We both do get pizzaed out sometimes.  Usually, it isn’t at the same time though. 

The Mack’s sauce made with the Great Value tomato paste (with other ingredients) was frozen right after market Tuesday.

Steve is going to teach me how to brew beer.  Maybe that will make me lay off the pizza experiments for awhile.    It could happen that I might like brewing beer better than making pizzas.

Norma

[norma427]

Well, the Mack’s attempt was a major fail in my opinion yesterday, but I usually post the bad with the good ones.  I have no idea why, but the dough didn’t want to see to open right and I did say to Steve, look at the thin spots in the skin while I was opening it.  I never usually have problems with opening a Mack’s clone dough ball.  The dough ball was warmed-up enough.  I knew the Mack’s clone attempt wasn’t going to go well, but proceeded.  I also didn’t bring anymore 3 month old aged white Nasonville cheddar to market so I used about 50/50 1 year old aged Nasonville white cheddar mixed with Nasonville 3 month old aged white cheddar.  The taste of the cheese was really off in the baked Mack’s pizza.  The taste of the sauce was good though. 

I also have no idea why the pizza wanted to start to get to dark on the bottom of the pie this time, but I had to place a screen under the pie while it was baking.  The pie had already stuck to the deck from the thin spots on the skin and the cheese and sauce were sticking to the deck.  Steve and I did weigh the baked pizza, but the weight wouldn’t be accurate because of the bottom crust tearing issue in the oven.   The pizza did weigh 1 lb. 14.1 ounces though.

Steve still liked this Mack’s attempt, but I sure didn’t.

I only have two packages of the Nasonville 3 month old age cheddar left and might save the one package and left it age for awhile in the fridge to see what happens.  I am not sure if I will do another attempt at a clone Mack’s pizza next week or not.

What a mess, but here are the pictures. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma