Author Topic: NJ Boardwalk Pizza  (Read 183382 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1560 on: November 04, 2012, 07:16:26 AM »

Also posted on Wildwood 365 last evening.

It's the absolute last thing we want to hear, but projections for next week's Nor'easter - expected to hit the already-battered Jersey coast Tuesday night into Wednesday morning - bring with them serious coastal flooding concerns.

"Had Hurricane Sandy not occurred earlier this week, we would be talking about a typical nor'easter with minor coastal flooding and a minor rise in water," reported AccuWeather meteorologist Brian Edwards.

"But, because of the destruction and erosion to the New Jersey coast that occurred, AccuWeather.com Expert Senior Meteorologist Bernie Rayno is concerned this could be a moderate to severe coastal flooding events."

The danger is most severe, of course, for communities from Atlantic City on northward, which saw their protective dunes wiped out by Sandy; particularly, the most-devastated areas, such as Seaside Park, Seaside Heights, and Mantoloking.

The Wildwoods suffered varying degrees of beach erosion this week, but figure to be in relatively decent shape to combat the next storm.

Lets all just hope for the very best as this nor'easter approaches.

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1561 on: November 06, 2012, 06:56:44 AM »
I wonder if there still a Sandy Hook...

Edgar,

If you happen to look at this thread, you wondered how Sandy Hook made out in Hurricane Sandy.

Here is a video and an article.

http://www.app.com/viewart/20121103/NJNEWS/311030056/sandy-hook-sandy

Norma
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Offline Woodfiredovenpizzero

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1562 on: November 06, 2012, 11:58:53 AM »
Thanks for the link Norma. Mix feelings, good that's still there but sad of the damage.

Edgar

Offline jimt2013

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1563 on: January 01, 2013, 09:48:52 PM »
Norma and Pete-zza,

I (and my family) believe that I've successfully recreated Mack & Manco's in Ocean City, NJ tonight. I've been eating their pizza for 35 years but only in the last 15 years have I become obsessed with trying to recreate it. This past weekend my wife and kids and I stayed in OC for the New Years Eve events they have there and ate several times of course at Manco's. My wife pressed several of their staff members to give up some info on both the dough and the cheese. The dough is a closely guarded secret but I uncovered (with your and Pete's help) that added vital wheat gluten (VWG) is 1 of the 2 secret ingredients. The other secret dough ingredient I'm not certain about. Gluten was confirmed with a wink and nod, but I was told there is one more second secret ingredient that helps the elasticity. He told me if I googled it I'd find it, but after many hours on the web, I'm still not sure. My educated guess is that it's either guar gum or xantham gum. Both are thickening agents, but also binding agents which would help prevent dough from tearing when under stress of throwing. Coincidentally, guar and xantham are both used by people allergic to gluten as a solid alternative to gluten's binding characteristics. So using both (or all three) to make the dough extra strong makes perfect sense to me.

So I went to the store and bought VWG and guar gum, leaving the xantham experiment for another day. I made one dough ball with just the VWG and a second ball with both ingredients. The second ball with both VWG and guar gum was MUCH stronger of a raw dough than the first and it's consistency when cooked was better than the first as well. Both were thin, strong, and crispy on the bottom, but moist on the inside, but the second was a significant cut above. A perfect recreation in my opinion (and my family's who by now are skilled test tasters of my experiments). As for my recipe tonight, I'll give you approximations because I always only loosely measure. I judge hydration with my hands as I'm kneading and I never measure salt and oil. I don't like to knead any more than it takes to get a nice silky ball and once I have that, I rub the ball in olive oil and let it sit for no less than 20 minutes, but no more than 30. I don't punch down and all that. I've experimented with all that and have found that the shorter the time between scratch and the oven works best for me. I simply take the 20-30 min proofed dough straight from bowl to pizza peal and begin prepping to toss. My approximate ingredients tonight were: 1/2 cup warm water with just a sprinkle of sugar and 1/3 pack of yeast. I let the yeast bubble, then I stir in about 1-2 TBSP of olive oil, a few pinches of salt, 1/2 cup of flour, 1 TBSP of VWG, and 1 TSP of guar gum. After I get a nicely mixed batter, I stir in a second 1/2 cup of flour, then begin to use my hands to slowly mix in the 3rd 1/2 cup of flour (all flour was all purpose flour) being very careful to only add flour as I knead it (and need it) it to keep it from sticking to my fingers.

After it proofs and is still glistening with oil as it does at Mancos, I coat the dough and my pizza peal with flour and also like they do at Manco's I push my finger tips all over the dough being careful to leave a peak in the center (there is no rolling pin on their premises!) Once I have it flattened to a thick disk (with almost twice the thickness in center) I begin to throw it up and twirl it. Once the center is at the desired thinness, I use my fists to stretch the outer perimeter and I have a nice thin silky blanket of dough.

Cheese: I'm 99% certain after my visit and chat with Manco's that they use 100% Wisconsin mild cheddar cheese. As several folks here chimed in, they buy huge blocks of it and grate it as they go. My cheese tonight was NY mild cheddar and we loved it. It was not quite as stringy as Manco's but close enough for me. We think Manco's might buy their blocks of mild cheddar with a slight mixture of mozzarella thrown in to give it that stringy-ness but not sure. Either way, I can't believe for all these years I thought it was mozzarella!!

As for the sauce, that importance to a Manco pizza is a far second to the dough and cheese. Manco's is not sweet but has a high basil/oregano content. For that reason I used Ragu traditional pizza sauce but...... I learned that you have to water it down!!! Manco's sauce is very watery which allows it to spread and ooze as the cheese melts.  For both of my pizza's tonight I put the cheese down first as do they. But my first pizza's sauce straight from the jar just sat in the same place I drizzled it before the oven, even after the cheese bubbled and melted. So I added a significant amount of water to the sauce for my second pizza and got a nice distribution of cheezy saucy mixture after it was cooked. Another riddle solved!!

Thanks again for starting this post and for helping me uncover the secrets. The cat and mouse game this past weekend with Manco's staff who couldn't legally reveal secrets but who could tell me to try to the internet to confirm my suspicions, led me to this site. I'm not 100% certain I have their secret dough ingredients but based on my experience tonight, I may have something BETTER!

Happy New Year

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1564 on: January 02, 2013, 05:44:10 AM »
My wife pressed several of their staff members to give up some info on both the dough and the cheese. The dough is a closely guarded secret but I uncovered (with your and Pete's help) that added vital wheat gluten (VWG) is 1 of the 2 secret ingredients. The other secret dough ingredient I'm not certain about. Gluten was confirmed with a wink and nod, but I was told there is one more second secret ingredient that helps the elasticity.

I would bet any amount of money that this staff member is confusing vital wheat gluten with high gluten flour.  NY area pizzerias have access to flours with as much gluten as they'd ever need.  There's no way any of them would shell out the extra money for VWG.

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1565 on: January 02, 2013, 07:25:45 AM »
jimt2013,

I am glad you and your family think you have successfully recreated a Mackís, or Manco and Manco pizza.  I am also glad you believe guar gum helped your dough become more strong.  I really donít know much of anything about guar gum or xantham gum in pizza dough.  It is good to hear you might have found something better than a Manco and Manco pizza.  That can happen because pizza businesses arenít always consistent in making their pies as I have found out.


As you might have read on this thread I also became somewhat obsessed with trying to sort of clone a Mackís pizza.  This last summer I also ate Manco and Manco pizza.

Really the only reason I was using VWG in some of my last few attempts was for home pizza makers that donít have access to high gluten flours.  I did confirm that Mackís pizza in Wildwood uses Kyrol flour, or did at the time I was there.  I believe Scott123 is right in that the staff was confusing VWG with high gluten flour.  Pizza business donít have to add VWG to their flours.  High gluten flours are easily obtainable for pizza businesses.

If you are interested I posted different times when I was at Mackís and Manco and Manco.  Going back to May of 2010 at Reply 211 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97850.html#msg97850 and posts on the next couple of pages.  I was able to confirm about the Kyrol flour.  Erasmo and I both confirmed that Mackís is using Gangi Extra Heavy Sauce, which would need to be watered down.  I did purchase the Gangi Sauce and few times and it does taste just like Mackís sauce.  I canít find any place near me to purchase it anymore, but have done some tests with Walmartís Great Value tomato paste and it is close enough for me.  I donít know if you are aware, but there is also a cheese thread to go along with this thread.  It is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13499.0.html  I talked to a distributor in NJ that said Manco and Manco does use Nasonville 3 month old aged cheddar in the 40 lb. blocks.  Nasonville cheddar can be purchased online.  I did purchase a big block (41 lbs.) of Nasonville cheddar from a distributor near Philly, but it wasnít aged enough.  Right now I am trying to age 3 month old Nasonville white cheddar to get that extra tang before I try it on another Mackís attempt.  You would need to call Nasonville to see if they still sell the 3 month old aged white cheddar, because of this morning I donít see it listed. http://www.nasonvilledairy.com/   I am not even sure if the 3 month old aged white cheddar will still give me the right taste after it is aged more.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 07:28:42 AM by norma427 »
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1566 on: January 02, 2013, 10:25:00 AM »
Jim,

Thank you very much for your post.

I agree with scott123 and Norma that it is unlikely that Mack's or Manco and Manco would be using vital wheat gluten. If they are using a high-gluten flour to begin with, such as the Kyrol, there would be no reason to increase its gluten content by adding VWG. That would only make the dough tougher and harder to work with. VWG might make more sense if they were using a lower-protein flour, such as the all-purpose flour that you have been using.

I'd also be surprised if they are using guar gum. There are certain gums (TIC is a major supplier) that can be used in doughs but they are usually used to make par-baked crusts that hold more of the moisture in the crust so that they more closely simulate a fresh baked crust. If I had to guess, the "second secret ingredient" might be oil. Oil helps coat the gluten strands so that they slide past each other and improve extensibility of the dough, making it easier to stretch and toss. Another possibility is that they may be using a product such as sold by Foremost Farms under the trade name PZ-44. That product helps tame a "bucky" dough and make the dough easier to open up and shape and stretch. PZ-44 is especially good for doughs made with high-gluten flour, where "buckiness" seems to be a more common problem, and would be especially helpful if one is making a short term dough that is used shortly after making. I do not believe that we were ever able to determine when and how Mack's makes its dough and its fermentation protocol.

You can read more about PZ-44 at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Specifications/TDS_PZ44_450.pdf.

Peter

EDIT (2/7/13): For an alternative to the above link that is no longer operative (since the PZ-44 product line was sold to another company), see http://web.archive.org/web/20060311221117/http://www.foremostfarms.com/products/ingredient/pdf/450PZ44.pdf.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:28:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pizzamaster

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1567 on: January 17, 2013, 04:07:30 AM »
Does anyone know what happened to WIldwood as a result of the storm?

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1568 on: January 17, 2013, 07:27:38 AM »
Does anyone know what happened to WIldwood as a result of the storm?

Pizzamaster,
 
These are some reports about Wildwood after Sandy.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=8867256

http://www.shorenewstoday.com/snt/news/index.php/wildwood-mainmenu/wildwood-leader/31318-wildwood-gets-back-to-business-after-sandy.html

http://articles.philly.com/2012-10-31/news/34818394_1_high-tide-water-damage-seagrass

One video of the beach flooding from Sandy.



There was damage in Wildwood, but not as bad as other coastal towns along the Atlantic Ocean.

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1569 on: January 27, 2013, 06:21:53 AM »
A little more on Mackís Pizza in Wildwood.  I didnít hear the rumor, but knew the Mack brothers legally severed their partnership with the Manco family of Ocean City, NJ.  I didnít know that Rose (affectionately know as Mrs. T) was that old either.  This was posted on Funchase.  http://www.funchase.com/Images/Macks/MacksRumor.htm

This picture right at Mackís on Wildwood Ave. was posted on facebook 17 hrs. ago.  It sure looks peaceful on the boards with the snow and no people.

I think it is fun to go back though all the pages (9) at Funchase and see how Mackís looked years ago, how many locations that they once had and also to see how many kind of ovens Mackís used before they started using the Roto-Flex oven in 1966.  http://www.funchase.com/Images/Macks/MacksPizzaPg2.htm   A quote from that page in how much the cost of a Mackís pizza was back then.  ďIn the early years Mack's offered an 18 inch pie for $2.14. Before the idea of the pizza box came along Mack's wrapped the "pies to go" in white paper. (And how many remember when a slice was served on a napkin? - I sure do.) You could get a cut for 29 cents and for an extra 15 you could get an icy cold beverage to go with it. ( I really like saying "icy cold beverage"... )Ē.


I also have fond memories of the Trampoline Park and going there a jumping for awhile and then my legs feeling springy for awhile.  http://www.funchase.com/Images/Macks/MacksPizzaPg9.htm   This is a quote out of that page and I guess I still feel the same way. ďI got hooked on Mack's at an early age and through the years since I have talked to other "Mack's Lovers" and found they also feel the same passion for this pie. I still get that same feeling as I walk up the ramp to Mack's, knowing I am about to eat the pizza I grew up on, sitting in the same shop on the boards staring out at a view that also remains unchanged... the Atlantic Oceanď.


I think I have my Nasonville cheddar for 3 months now, so maybe this coming week or next week I will attempt a Mackís pizza again.  I sure am hungry for one. 

I donít think I knew that Marucaís Tomato Pies in Seaside Park started before Mackís Pizza, but in this article it says it opened in 1950 where Mackís Pizza opened in 1956.  http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2010/07/munchmobile_2010_boardwalk_foo.html I also enjoyed the video with a quick glimpse of Mackís in the video.  I didnít know either that there is a pizza book called ďA Slice of JerseyĒ.  http://www.amazon.com/Slice-Jersey-Ultimate-Guide-Garden/dp/1597252611/?tag=pizzamaking-20  In the above article it also says that Mackís Pizza in Wildwood, Mack & Manco Pizza (now Manco & Manco) and Marucaís Tomato Pies in Seaside Park all can be traced to Trenton.  I did know that all of those pizzas could be traced to Trenton, NJ.  One of these days I am going to have to visit Trenton Bill and go to Marucaís to try their pizzas and also try other Trenton pizzas.

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1570 on: January 31, 2013, 08:06:46 AM »
From Wildwood Memories & Nostalgia.  1906 illustration of the Wildwoods, with the Boardwalk, Casino, and Hotel Dayton in view.  To put this in perspective, the Dayton (at right) sat at the corner of Atlantic & Wildwood Aves.

Wildwood sure looked different back in 1906.

Norma
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Offline Ev

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1571 on: January 31, 2013, 08:21:39 AM »
Hey Norma, just wondering. Does that look the way you remember it from 1906? >:D :-D

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1572 on: January 31, 2013, 08:34:11 AM »
Hey Norma, just wondering. Does that look the way you remember it from 1906? >:D :-D

Steve,

Darn you I am old, but not that old!  :-D  I find the trolley car interesting.  They used to have trolley cars around our area too.  I didn't know they had a casino back then either.

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1573 on: February 25, 2013, 09:34:58 AM »
Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1574 on: February 25, 2013, 09:37:06 AM »
This formulation was used before on this thread and I am trying it again with Kyrol flour for another attempt on a MackĎs pizza.  I went to Walmart yesterday and they didnít have any Great Value tomato paste, so I guess I will give the Classico Tomato Puree a shot.  I donít know how the Classico Tomato Puree will be on a Mackís attempt.  The Nasonville Mild Cheddar has been aging in my fridge for about 3 months.  I will see if aging the Nasonville Mild Cheddar for about 3 months changes the flavor of the Nasonville Mild Cheddar when baked on the attempt tomorrow. 

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1575 on: February 27, 2013, 08:44:03 AM »
ďAll in allĒ, the Mackís clone yesterday did taste like a Mackís pizza when everything was taken into consideration, but one small thing that just wasnít exactly right.  I was satisfied though with the results of the Mackís clone attempt.

The Mackís clone dough ball did opened very well and could be tossed and twirled.  Steve mixed the Classico heavy tomato puree with oregano (about 1 tablespoon) for a half of a can and also added a little bit of regular pepper.  No extra salt was added.  The Classico heavy tomato puree is thicker than their other products.  Steve added a little water to thin it down some.  When tasting the Classico sauce with added regular oregano and pepper it did taste like Mackís sauce.  7 Ĺ ounces of sauce was used on the pizza and 10 Ĺ ounces of the Nasonville mild cheddar was used.  It can be seen how the Nasonville mild cheddar kind of wanted to stick together some after being grated and while placing it on the pizza two times.  I couldnít find my right tip for my plastic squeeze bottle, but the one I found worked out okay. 

The Mackís clone pizza baked fairly well in the oven with not a lot of oven spring.  The Mackís clone attempt did have almost all the same attributes in the crust.  The fresh baked slices did stand out like a Mackís pizza, the crust was sort of crispy with some characteristics of being crackery, the crumb rim was very tender like a Mackís pizza with a little crisp edge.  Steve and I thought the crust tasted very good, even if it didnít have a lot of oven spring. 

The Classico heavy tomato puree when baked on the pizza did almost tastes like the Gangi sauce that is used on a Mackís pizza.  At least when using the Classico heavy tomato puree (with added oregano and pepper) the taste is very close when baked on the pizza. 

The Nasonville medium white cheddar even if it was aged about 3 months didnít really change in flavor a lot though (when tasted plain and on the Mackís attempt).  I had thought that the Nasonville medium white cheddar might change in taste if it was aged about 3 months in the fridge.  It now makes me curious if maybe Nasonville does produce a different Nasonville cheddar just for food service businesses.  I know I talked to who is supposedly the distributor to Mackís and Manco & Manco and they told me that they age the Nasonville cheddar for up to 3 months for Mackís and Manco & Manco.  Since I did age the Nasonville cheddar for almost 3 months that is what makes me curious about a food service Nasonville cheddar.  I did purchase a 42.90 lb. block of Nasonville cheddar from Bova Foods at Reply 48 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13499.msg188162.html#msg188162 and at Reply 50 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13499.msg188178.html#msg188178 and the following posts.  That Nasonville cheddar didnít have the tang to the cheese.  Yesterday there was a little bit of tang, but not quite enough. 

Trenton Bill invited me to his home for sometime this spring and if I go we will taste Trenton pizzas and we might also go to the distributor that is supposedly Mackís and Manco and Manco distributor.  We might even go to Marugaís if Sandy didnít do too much damage to them.  http://www.marucaspizza.com/  Only after maybe trying another big block of Nasonville cheddar from who is supposedly the distributor for Mackís and Manco & Manco may I finally find out if the Nasonville cheddar is the same as the Nasonville cheddar I purchased in smaller packages and if the aging process changes anything.

If anyone is interested in seeing the video of Marugaís boardwalk style pizza this is the video.



I still have the old pouring pot that Trenton Bill gave me that they used at Marugaís.  For some reason my volume on my computer wonít go up enough to hear how much of their proprietary cheese blend they use.  I also canít pick up most of what is being said in that video.  If someone can hear it would they please let me know what was being said, especially about the amount of proprietary cheese they use.

I might even call Papa Dinoís and see if they might tell me what brand of cheddar they are purchasing in big blocks.  I could tell them that I am making Detroit style pizza and would like to try the brand of cheddar they are using for my Detroit style pizzas.  Their cheddar does taste like Mackís cheese.  At least it couldnít hurt to ask.   :-D

Norma
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:42:01 PM by Steve »
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1576 on: February 27, 2013, 08:53:21 AM »
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1577 on: February 27, 2013, 09:03:32 AM »
Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1578 on: February 27, 2013, 09:05:37 AM »
Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #1579 on: February 27, 2013, 09:07:21 AM »
Norma
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