Author Topic: NJ Boardwalk Pizza  (Read 254440 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2010, 05:45:51 PM »
I also noticed that the pizzas coming out of the oven did not have alot of large bubbles.

Maybe that will be helpful with dough formulation.

ERASMO,

Since I am not an expert on the bubbles coming out of the oven, we can wait and see if any people might respond to that.

Thanks,

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2010, 05:54:54 PM »
Those pics are making me hungry for that pizza again.

I searched online for the sauce.  Not alot of hits on it.  I will call the company on Monday to see who carries it in the area.

Norma, The pizza had a great flavor and they did cheese it once lightly,  add sauce in a swirl and then add more cheese on top.  They also sprinkled what appeared to be oregano on before putting in the oven.  When you were eating the pizza you could see the flakes on top.

My newyork style is around 64 percent hydration, the dough they were using looked definately dryer when thet were working it.

ERASMO,

I keep scrolling back to those pictures.  I think I am now starving for a slice.  :-D  The tip on the oregano is a good one, too.

Norma

Offline scott r

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2010, 10:26:43 AM »
The not a lot of bubbles thing just tells us that it is probably a cold fermented dough that has been brought fully up to room temp before use and has been allowed to ferment a decent amount slowly.  More than likely it is not a high yeast formula.   
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 10:44:42 AM by scott r »

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2010, 11:43:42 AM »
scott r,

Thanks for letting us know about the bubbles and you thinking on the dough probably fermented slowly for a decent amount of time.  Do you have any ideas about the yeast amount?  Would 0.20 be too much for a 4-5 day cold ferment, in your opinion? 

I tried to call California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens in Modesto California and also tried to go on their website to get information.  It seems like either this place went out of business or someone else has taken them over.  I tried different numbers I found on the web and all say their service is disconnected.  Even their website doesn’t work. 

Since they are also located in Modesto, California and so is the main office of Stanislaus, I then decided to call them to see if they had any information about California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens.  I talked to a customer service representative named Renee and she was very helpful.  I explained to her that I did use the Stanislaus products at my market stand and had even just received a poster that I had sent for because there was a slip in my last case of products for a free poster of “Tossing the Perfect Pizza Pie”.  I then explained to her that I wanted to recreate a pie that I had remembered from many years ago and told her about what kind of pie it was and where the pizzas shops are located.  I also told her someone had gotten an empty can of the Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with basil and it was from California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens.  She then told me many people try to reproduce other peoples pizza and their sauces.  She said there was another girl in the office that had recently talked about California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens and maybe them going out of business or selling to someone else.  She said she would talk to her and call me back.  She said exactly the same thing scott r said that the Saporito extra heavy pizza sauce w basil would probably be the same.  She even said she would send me a free can to try.  Wow..was I lucky.  I told her about my market stand and how I am only making pizza one day a week.  We chatted for about 20 minutes.  Just now Renee called me back after she talked to the other girl in the office. She told me that Morningstar had bought out California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens about 5 years ago and to call Morningstar to get more information on their products.  She said she thought they still kept the name of  Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with basil.  The other girl in the office said that either Saporito extra heavy pizza sauce w basil or Full Red could be comparable.  She then said they would send me samples of both.  I then thought, what a great company, that would be willing to share so much information and even help me to find a product that wasn’t theirs.  She also said so many people are trying to recreate pizzas they remembered in the past. 

I don’t have time to call Morningstar today, because I have to make my dough for tomorrow.  If anyone else has the time, maybe they could call.  If not I will call them Wednesday.

Scott, thanks for your help,

Norma

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2010, 12:09:09 PM »
Just talked to Morningstar.  Bova foods stocks it in our area.

I deal with savona stavola in NJ but they no longer carry it.


This is the company that sells it now.
http://www.pcoastp.com/default.aspx

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2010, 02:36:12 PM »
Bova is a friend of mine, I do a lot of business with him (and the family)

I'm 100% positive that they carry Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.


It's Kind of surprising that Savona/Stavola doesn't have it anymore.... Another place around this area that I am pretty sure carries it is the Restaurant Depot in Pensauken, NJ or Jetro in South Philadelphia.
-PaperBoy

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2010, 03:01:08 PM »
Sorry

I was talking about the Gangi sauce from Macks.

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2010, 04:59:32 PM »
Just talked to Morningstar.  Bova foods stocks it in our area.

This is the company that sells it now.
http://www.pcoastp.com/default.aspx

ERASMO,

Thanks for calling and finding where they have the Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Sauce with basil.  I don't get to Bova foods, but Steve (Ev) goes there different times.  I will talk to him tomorrow and see if he will pick me up some Gangi sauce the next time he goes there.

Thanks for the great detective work again,  8)

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2010, 10:02:30 PM »
I have gone back to the drawing board in trying to formulate a starting point for a clone Mack’s or Mack and Manco pizza. 
I have thought about the longer ferment and what I might try to possibly get better results.  I looked though the New KitchenAid Dough Making Method starting at Reply #1 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html I am going to keep my current formula, but go about making the dough in a different way for the first test. 
I am striving for a final dough temperature of around 65 degrees F.  I plan on just mixing the water and flour and then incorporating the IDY, salt, and then finally the oil later in the mix. Since scott r thought this dough might be a longer mix time, it got me thinking about how to go about the mix and then the longer ferment.  The reasoning behind this is, if I am trying to stimulate what Mack’s might be doing to get a longer ferment, this might be something they are doing, in the heat and humidity of Wildwood or one of Mack's or Mack & Manco pizza businesses.
I don’t want to try sugar at this point in the experiment.
I might need to go back to the drawing board many times.  ::)

Flour (100%):     1559.77 g  |  55.02 oz | 3.44 lbs
Water (60%):       935.86 g  |  33.01 oz | 2.06 lbs
IDY (0.20%):           3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           27.3 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.69 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.5%):      38.99 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.67 tsp | 2.89 tbsp
Total (164.45%): 2565.05 g | 90.48 oz | 5.65 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:   513.01 g | 18.1 oz | 1.13 lbs

Norma
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 10:05:29 PM by norma427 »


Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2010, 08:00:20 AM »
Pictured below is the brand of white cheddar I use.  Steve (Ev) and I tried to make a Mack’s style pizza yesterday with my regular poolish dough just to test out the mild white cheddar.  We also mixed some mozzarella in with the cheddar. We mixed more mild white cheddar than mozzarella. I tried to flatten the dough so the pizza wouldn’t have as much rim as my regular pizzas.  We used a cake decorating kit I had at market to try and replicate the hose to put on the sauce.  I think we used to much sauce. We put two layers of cheese on the pizza. Steve never tasted a Mack’s pizza, but thought the pizza was good.

Of course this pizza didn’t come out like a Mack’s pizza, but did taste tasty. I don’t know if it was my sauce or the cheese blend we used, but the taste of the sauce and cheese blend wasn’t like Macks’s. 

Maybe this Friday after I mix the 5 dough balls at market, I will then bring home one dough ball and try to experiment with it at home.  This might help me to understand more about how long Mack’s might cold ferment the dough.  I will watch the poppy sees to see how much the dough ferments.  When thinking about how long Mack’s or Mack and Manco cold-ferment their dough, I can’t believe it could be a really long cold-ferment because they make so many pies in one day and don’t see how they would have room to store all those dough balls for so many days.

This will probably be one of many tests.

Pictures below.

Norma

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2010, 05:01:41 PM »
Norma,

In the video you mentioned earlier, at , it looks like the dough balls are stored on what appear to be sheet trays, with six dough balls per tray. There are some pizza operators who say that they can store more dough balls in a given space when using trays and racks instead of plastic dough boxes. I have seen some double racks that have 52 slots. The trays can be individually inserted into bags (often jokingly referred to as "body bags") or a large bag can be put over the entire rack. Using trays and racks also avoids having to down stack and cross stack.

Of course, you may still be right on the duration of the cold fermentation period. Long cold ferments of several days are not the norm for professionals from what I have read.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2010, 05:25:09 PM »
Norma,

In the video you mentioned earlier, at , it looks like the dough balls are stored on what appear to be sheet trays, with six dough balls per tray. There are some pizza operators who say that they can store more dough balls in a given space when using trays and racks instead of plastic dough boxes. I have seen some double racks that have 52 slots. The trays can be individually inserted into bags (often jokingly referred to as "body bags") or a large bag can be put over the entire rack. Using trays and racks also avoids having to down stack and cross stack.

Of course, you may still be right on the duration of the cold fermentation period. Long cold ferments of several days are not the norm for professionals from what I have read.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for going over that video and spotting that they might be using dough trays.  I never would have picked that up.  I could imagine them using something like this, because they make so many pizzas in one day.  I am only familiar with the locations of Mack's in Wildwood.  The one is fairly big, with a staircase leading to an upstairs place where people can also eat their pizzas.  The one other place isn't that big, so I can't imagine if they are making the dough in the basements, where they would store all their dough.  I think their are three locations in Wildwood if I am correct.  Maybe someone else could fill us in on how much space either the Mack's or Mack & Marco's have.  I might just have to go down their this summer, if I can't get this figured out.  It is about a four hour drive from where I live one way.  At least I could get to visit the shore again and get to taste the Mack's pizza.
I was also wondering about the longer cold ferment.  That is why I am going to bring a dough ball home and watch how it cold ferments.  I also thought about how unusual it would be for a pizza business like them to do a long ferment.  I could imagine they might be making a dough that might last for two to three days.

Thanks for doing the detective work,  8)

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2010, 08:01:02 PM »
This is another video from Mack’s Pizza.  I don’t think it was posted.

..sorry it was already on the first page

Mack and Manco in Ocean City..you can just see the how big the place their places might be.






Here are more links to Wildwood, but not particularly Mack’s, although some do have pictures of Mack's pizza.  Wildwood has a lot to do with Doo Wop.  You can get a feel about what Wildwood is like, from these links.

http://www.wildwoodsnj.com/

Facebook page that people talk about Wildwood.  http://www.wildwood365.com  http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?profile=1&id=58021533588  Maybe there is someone on this page that might know more about Mack’s pizza.

Earth cam of Wildwood

http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newjersey/wildwood/

Wildwood is famous for their tram cars, that transport people from one end of the boardwalk to the other, if you get to tired to walk or want to sightsee.  If you ever visit Wildwood, you will never forget the tram cars.  It is always, “Watch the Tram car, please”.  You always need to get out of their way. The constant “Watch the Tram car, please can get on your nerves.

Since I like History, this is how the tram car started.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jerseyflicks#p/u/2/-SUXgVF_sxg

http://www.youtube.com/user/Fulsam135#p/u/5/eIO7Qkl-XGo

A popular song you always hear in Wildwood.  “Wildwood Days” by: Bobby Rydell



http://www.youtube.com/user/QUOFANN#p/u/152/I0ZS5TZeedw



http://www.youtube.com/user/BobbyRydell42#p/a/u/2/aUUmdTOZUck

Our vanishing past on Wildwood and the Doo Wop





View from Mack’s pizza, boardwalk and wide and long beaches.  They rake their beaches everyday.







http://www.youtube.com/user/bfoxx24X#p/u/13/3E_rKEVYbuw

Even Wildwood worries about if people have enough money for trips to the beaches.

http://www.youtube.com/user/YourMorning#p/u/59/3XaIkltiNT4

Some thing change over the years, but Wildwood and Mack’s are something you will always remember.

These videos can give someone that has never been to Wildwood a feel for what it is like.
I will keep searching about Mack’s pizza.

Norma

Edit:  I think why some of these videos don't work is because they say related.  I will work on that.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 02:12:47 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2010, 08:58:26 PM »
sorry, I messed up on posting the videos if anyone was interested in seeing what Wildwood is like.  I think I have them straightened out now.  ::)

Norma

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2010, 12:44:09 PM »
I received the products from Stanislaus Food Products, today.  If I decide to try out the test Mack's dough over the weekend, does anyone have any suggestions on which one of these products I should try, until I get a can of Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with basil?

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2010, 12:58:27 PM »
Norma

Savona told me the saporita with basil would be similiar.

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2010, 02:07:50 PM »
Norma

Savona told me the saporita with basil would be similiar.

ERASMO,

Thanks for letting me know what kind would be similar.  :)  If you don't mind me asking, how long did it take you to get to Mack's from where you live?  I think my daughter is going to go along with me to Mack's in May.  I hope it works out, so I can try their pizza, again.  ;D

Norma


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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2010, 02:14:39 PM »
We live in Cochranville and it normally takes us about two hours and fifteen minutes to get to Wildwood.  We have a home there and go on the weekends. 

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2010, 02:17:50 PM »
We live in Cochranville and it normally takes us about two hours and fifteen minutes to get to Wildwood.  We have a home there and go on the weekends. 

ERASMO,

You sure are lucky in my opinion to be able to go there on weekends. 

Thanks,

Norma

Offline scott r

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2010, 06:19:51 PM »
I received the products from Stanislaus Food Products, today.  If I decide to try out the test Mack's dough over the weekend, does anyone have any suggestions on which one of these products I should try, until I get a can of Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with basil?

Thanks,

Norma


Norma, these are basically the same exact product, but the saporito has had almost all of its water removed.     I think you will prefer the full red, as there is more of the natural tomato juice left in the product.   With the saporito you will have to add quite a bit of tap water to get it to the right consistency.   Its actually even thicker than what you buy as "tomato paste" at the normal grocery store.  You have probably noticed already how heavy the can is.   

I have found that almost every lesser known brand of california produced commercial tomato products actually mimic the stanislaus line of products.    If you do ever get your hands on the gangi supreme super heavy pizza sauce I have a feeling you are going to find that it is almost the exact same thing as the saporito super heavy pizza sauce you have now. 

P.S, you are way too kind to me in your above posts!    I think .2-.3% idy cold fermented for 2-5 days is going to get you close to the right fermentation point for your macs clone.   You may very well be correct and it is a 1 or 2 day dough, but if you go for that you might want to up the yeast to .3-.35.   Good luck Norma! 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 06:27:27 PM by scott r »

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2010, 07:22:49 PM »
Norma, these are basically the same exact product, but the saporito has had almost all of its water removed.     I think you will prefer the full red, as there is more of the natural tomato juice left in the product.   With the saporito you will have to add quite a bit of tap water to get it to the right consistency.   Its actually even thicker than what you buy as "tomato paste" at the normal grocery store.  You have probably noticed already how heavy the can is.   

I have found that almost every lesser known brand of california produced commercial tomato products actually mimic the stanislaus line of products.    If you do ever get your hands on the gangi supreme super heavy pizza sauce I have a feeling you are going to find that it is almost the exact same thing as the saporito super heavy pizza sauce you have now. 

P.S, you are way too kind to me in your above posts!    I think .2-.3% idy cold fermented for 2-5 days is going to get you close to the right fermentation point for your macs clone.   You may very well be correct and it is a 1 or 2 day dough, but if you go for that you might want to up the yeast to .3-.35.   Good luck Norma! 

scott r,

Thank you for your suggestions.  I now use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with 7/11 ground tomatoes at the market stand, so I know how thick the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce is.  I even need to add water to this mixture before I use it.  I know how heavy the cans are, when I load a case at a time into my van.  :-D

I am anxious to see how all this works out.  I will watch the dough over the weekend and decide if I want to use it Saturday or Sunday.  Of course it isn't going to bake the same at home in my oven, but at least I can get a feel about the taste of the cheese and sauce.  Hopefully some of the dough will last until Tuesday, so I also can try that out.  I might have to adjust different things in the formula.

Thanks again for wishing us on this thread the Best of Luck,

Norma


After looking at this article and reading about half way though about Mack and Manco being from the same area of Trenton and learning from others how to make the Tomato Pie, it now make me wonder if they are making the about the same kind of pie at the shore.   http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/the-original.html 
Quote from article above, nearly at the end. “Anthony Mack and Vincent Manco grew up in Trenton, where they absorbed tomato pie culture before starting their three Mack and Manco pizzerias in Ocean City.”

I never have been to Trenton, NJ and never tasted a Tomato Pie or even saw a picture of the Tomato Pie from there.  I always associated Tomato PIes with something like foccacia.  ::)
I then read petef’s thread about Delorenzo’s Vs Wildflowers and saw a picture he had posted of the Tomato Pie at: Reply #33 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6907.msg87363.html#msg87363
      
By looking at that pie, I can’t tell how it tastes, but looks like a Mack’s or Mack and Manco pizza.

This then made me curious to learn more about the Tomato Pie.  I then searched on the forum for De Lorenzo’s pizza.  On the spit topic Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie on Reply #19 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44328.html#msg44328 BenLee says all the dough is opened by hand, is crispy, and is a dry dough, probably low hydration.  He goes on to say they dress their pies the about the same as Mack’s and Mack and Manco.  The dough also sounds like it is pressed out before opening. 

Also while reading this thread it says the  Delorenzo’s Pizza is cooked at high temperatures and later in the thread it says the pies are baked at around 550 degrees F.

When trentonpie77 makes only one post at Reply # 168 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg88826.html#msg88826 and posts about how his delorenzo's / mack 'n manco hybrid pizza at home, this also makes me wonder if he did know what he was talking by comparing the Delorenzo’s to the Mack and Manco. 

Is there anyone on the forum that has tried both the Delorenzo’s and also the Mack’s or Mack and Mancos pizzas for a comparison test?

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2010, 08:19:22 PM »
On this link to Mack and Mancos it reads about how their pizza is a Tomato Pie from Trenton.  I wonder if that is true?

http://www.mackandmancos.com/aboutus.html

Top 25 Pizzerias Based on Bulletin Board Shout-Outs

Posted by Adam Kuban, March 25, 2010 at 5:07 PM

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/21-week/  go down to see Top Pizzerias..there is

mention of both DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies Trenton NJ and Mack and Manco.

Pictures of Mack and Manco and slices copied from the web on a forum for your favorite pizza places.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 09:25:31 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2010, 09:58:52 AM »
This is an older article from The New York Times, but tells the tomato sauce is spiced with oregano and a little garlic.  It also says in this article that the oven is a rotating brick oven, so that would make me guess, that the Roto-Flex has a stone.

http://mackspizzaofstoneharbor.com/MacksPizza/REVIEWS.html

Pictures inside Mack’s, Wildwood, NJ

http://www.crazyaboutwildwood.com/id55.html

There are 21 good pictures of Mack and Mancos inside and outside if you search under Goggle images on the first page and then click on the one for the bridgeandtunnelclub.com. There are two under bridgeandtunnelclub.com   I can’t get that link to work.
            
I will keep searching for information on either Mack’s or Mack and Mancos, to give us a feel what kind of pizzas Mack and Mack and Manco make.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 08:26:37 AM by norma427 »

Offline scott r

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2010, 11:29:04 AM »
norma, I busted out the all trumps yesterday (thursday) in hopes that I could help you get closer to your mark with this one.    After mixing up two batches of dough I have settled on 59% hydration as having what seems to be the right feel after looking at all these videos and pictures.     My first dough was a 61%, and it seemed a little wet for the look I have seen, so I did a second batch at 59%.   I used .2% IDY and I let the dough sit out for about an hour and a half after I stopped the mixer to try to simulate what I find often happens in busy pizzerias.    The phone will ring, or a delivery truck will show up, so its often hard for a fast moving pizzeria to get the dough right into the walk in.   This also helps account for the time it takes to scale and tray the doughballs when you are making a huge batch (like im sure M&M does).    My plans are to make some pizzas late saturday night, and by then I think I will have only seen fairly minimal rise in the fridge (which is what I think we are looking for).   I am going to let the dough rest for a good few hours once I take it out of the fridge before it goes into the oven.  This will ensure that there is no bubbling caused by using a cool dough.   I know tom lehmann says to get it above 65 degrees before use, but in my experience that temp can still cause some minor bubbling.   My target dough temp before going into the oven is going to be more like 75 degrees, so I will probably set my thermocool unit to that temp and give the dough balls about two to three hours to reach it. 

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2010, 12:00:42 PM »
scott r,

Wow..great news that you are also going to experiment with this Mack’s style of pizza.  ;D  As I said before in another post I only have Kyrol flour for now, but will get a bag of All Trumps if the Kyrol doesn’t work out.  I will also change my formula to see if we get anywhere near the same results.  I will also use a thermometer to make sure my dough temperature is okay, before proceeding to open the dough.  Since I am going to be making the dough this afternoon, my dough probably won’t be ready when yours is.

I am anxious to hear about your results. 

Thanks again for all your help,

Norma