NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[norma427]

widespreadpizza,

Your idea worked great.     I used a plastic pitcher combined with a pizza tray and the weight of the pizza is 2 lb. 2oz.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The last two Mack clone pizzas I made weighed about 36 ounces and 32.7 ounces, unbaked. Unfortunately, I did not weigh the baked pizzas to see what the weight losses were. But I can tell you that the dough for the last pizza looked and felt much more in the ballpark based on the video that I used as my guide. My thinking after making the last pizza was that I would perhaps increase the dough weight a bit for the next iteration and add more cheese, which I concluded was perhaps too low for the last two pizzas, but beyond that I wasn't sure what other changes might be required. Maybe the changes I have in mind will get me closer to the weight of a Mack's pizza. However, I would have to determine the weight loss with my oven arrangement and revisit all of the numbers to see how they line up. By any chance, were you able to determine the weight of a Mack's or M&M dough ball or to estimate the amount of cheese used on the pizzas? Or the type or brand of any of the dominant ingredients?

You also mentioned the possibility of using a lower hydration. Was there something you saw that led you to conclude that a lower hydration was desirable?

Thanks for everything you and your daughter did to help the project along.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Here is another video I uploaded. If you also look what other videos I uploaded you can see some more.  I will show links to these later.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbZWoq_Kz3o" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbZWoq_Kz3o</a>

Since today is Mother’s Day and my mother and granddaughter were over this evening, I didn’t have time to post more pictures or go over what happened over the weekend.  I can tell you that Mack’s uses Kyrol flour.  I will post the pictures later.  I did get some dough that was throw away in the trash and did ball it up and put it into the freezer where we were staying.  I bought it home in the cooler and put it into the freezer.  It looked like it had some stuff on it, but in that trash can, there was only the bags of flour and not too many other things. 

Since your dough handled so well, I will make my next dough in the lines of yours.  I will read over this more in the coming days.  So much happened over the weekend and I think I learned a lot from watching.  I really enjoyed this trip.  My daughter was really helpful in eating Mack's pizza and also giving me feedback.  I will tell her you thanked her.  We went to two beaches.  The one at Wildwood and also the beach near Cape May where the ferry goes across to Lewes, Delaware.

I didn't mean about lowering the hydration any lower than the 57% you just tried in your recent Mack's experiment.  I just meant I needed to lower my hydration in the dough I made.

Norma

[norma427]

These are a few more pictures of the Mack’s slices we brought back to where we were staying. 

Norma

[norma427]

a few more

Norma

[norma427]

two more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

Since this thread is about NJ Boardwalk pizza and I had posted before other links to what Wildwood was like, I will now post what a short trip to Wildwood is like.  It is an interesting place, with many things to do, besides eating Mack’s pizza. 

I have been to Wildwood many times over the years and have many memories since I was a child, until I am older now.  This is a trip back in time to memory lane for me and also memories to last.

It was always exciting to visit Wildwood.  I still feel the same about visiting Wildwood and also eating Mack’s pizza.  It is a great place to just park your car and walk and listen to the ocean.

We decided to walk to Mack’s pizza the first night we were visiting.  I was going to buy a whole pie, but thought about it, and decided to go to Mack’s and just have slices different times, to be able to watch what they do in making their pizzas.  Even after reheating a slice of Mack’s pizza in the microwave, the pizza was delicious.  The bottom wasn’t crisp, but the flavor of Mack’s pizza was still there.  I find it interesting that some people comment that Mack’s pizza has gone downhill, because after trying different slices, I didn’t find that.  The piemen did tell me that Mack’s did have 5 places in Wildwood years ago.

After the first night spent at Wildwood, we awoke to the sounds of seagulls.  That is a lot different than being at home.  We took the dogs to the beach and walked for a long while and gathered some shells.  There weren’t many people on the beach because the season isn’t in full swing at this time.  There were some fishermen fishing from the shore.

We then went back to were we were staying and decided to go to Cape May to where the ferry goes with cars and passengers to Lewes, Delaware.  This isn’t the ocean, but a nice place to visit and just relax. The sand is coarser there. You can watch the boats going out to the ocean.  This is just about a 15 minute trip from Wildwood.  When driving there you can see the many boats and yachts along the way. 

When we returned to where we were staying we decided to walk the boardwalk.  It is about two miles long.  There are two Mack’s pizza places on the boardwalk. There is also a Sam’s pizza near the first pier. Some people say Sam’s is better than Mack’s.  I also watched the piemen make their pizzas and they do it about the same as Mack’s, but don’t twirl the skins. They also have a Roto-flex oven. On the way back we decided to take the famous tram car.  We had Mack’s pizza and talked to the piemen. 

In the evening we took the dogs on the beach, again.

The next morning we went to the beach, again.  It is so quiet there now, compared to summer.  There is a boardwalk on the ground, off the beach in North Wildwood, where you can walk along the dunes. You can always hear the seagulls and hear the Atlantic Ocean hitting the shore.

When we visited Macks’ pizza different times they did have different oven temperatures.  The digital readout at Mack’s fluctuated between 534 to 564 degrees F. At the Mack’s pizza in Wildwood Crest, they didn’t have a digital readout. Each time we sat at the counter to watch them make their pies.  The dough seemed like it was so easy to open.  The last morning we were there, they weren’t using the hose to apply the sauce.  They had some kind of what looked like a stainless steel teapot that they applied the sauce with.  The night before I had talked to one of the piemen about taking a whole pizza home.  He said that many people take a parbaked pizza home, so it would taste fresher when reheating.  We also enjoyed a slice of pizza while watching them parbake the pizza we were going to take home.  I asked the piemen what temperature I should bake the pizza at home and also if you could freeze slices of the parbaked pizza.  They told me that their ovens are set at 500 degrees F and to try and bake at that temperature.  They also said you can cut the pie into slices and individually freeze each slice.  I left one slice in the refrigerator and froze the rest.  I am going to give Steve one slice tomorrow to try at home.  I did buy a Mack’s pizza tee shirt and a Wildwood Hat. I enjoyed Polish ice, Douglas’s fudge, and a place that is named Curly Fries on the boardwalk.  I also bought some Douglas’s fudge and saltwater taffy to enjoy at home. 

These links will show people that are following this thread, what Wildwood and the beach at Cape May inlet are like.  It was windy at the shore, so in these videos you can hear the wind and see how the sand was blowing.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUMcOjXdjOU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUMcOjXdjOU</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HABA2gPqePc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HABA2gPqePc</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ZT5HmMvfQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ZT5HmMvfQ</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrIZFkZi5hM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrIZFkZi5hM</a>

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

we even got to enjoy the view in my daughter's car with the top down, at the shore.

[norma427]

Pictures of Mack’s pizza at Wildwood and Wildwood Crest.  I didn’t take any pictures inside of  while we were eating their slices, because I wanted to be able to take the videos, so members could watch and hopefully get some more ideas. We sat at the counter the different times we were there.  I now believe they make their dough at the location at Wildwood Crest.

Norma

[norma427]

Does anyone know how I should proceed to do tests on the frozen dough balls from Mack's? 

I even purchased a bottle of beachfront property with seashells for 1.00 at a store on the boardwalk. 

These are the rest of the pictures of the parbaked pizza.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I am still reading and digesting the new information from your recent posts but with respect to the frozen dough ball I would let it thaw out in the refrigerator for a day before letting it warm up to make a pizza with it. Were you able to tell if the dough you found was for a single normal dough ball? If so, you might want to weight it. In fact, you might weigh it anyway just to have that data point.

I found my post in which I determined the weight loss of a pizza as it cooled down after removing it from the oven. It was for a Papa John's clone pizza. As I discussed at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58335/topicseen.html#msg58335, it took about an hour for the pizza to stop losing weight, and the weight loss was a little over an ounce for a roughly 35 ounce 14" pizza, or a loss of a bit over 3%. The thermodynamics of a thinner 18" pizza like your Mack's pizza will be different but there should still be some weight loss. Also, in your case, your pizza was par-baked rather than fully baked.

It looks like you are getting closer to the goal of replicating a Mack's pizza. You now know the type and brand of flour, and you apparently know the brand of pizza sauce. You generally know the type of cheese (mild white cheddar) but not the brand. You know the desired and actual oven temperatures. You know the pizza size. If I am not mistaken, apart from the specific dough formulation, what appears to be missing is the balance between weights of dough, sauce and cheese. We also apparently don't know the duration of the cold fermentation.

Peter

[Essen1]

Norma,

Those are some great pics! They look almost identical to the Atlantic shore in Holland with all the dunes and beaches.

I had an Ex who used to work in North Wildwood as a traveling nurse a few years ago and I believe her Mom still owns the condo where she stayed at that time.

Man, when I saw that pic of the Horseshoe crab - that's what it is, right? - I had a hard time believing that this species is around for at least 300 million years! I guess she's seen her fare share of strange things in her life  


Peter,

I had to convert your formula, or downscale it actually, from 18" to 14" since my oven isn't as big. I'll post the formula in a little bit before I start making the dough.

[norma427]

Peter,

The dough was not a normal dough ball to my knowledge.  It was a glob of dough, that I then divided into 4 dough balls.  I didn’t weigh the dough, but have 4 different dough balls that are now frozen.  I did ball the dough, and just put it in the freezer at the place we were staying.  The one dough ball is little.  I also did taste the dough and it tasted saltier than my normal dough.  I didn’t swallow it, but wanted to see how it tasted. 

Thank you for finding your post on the experiment you did on how much loss of weight there is while baking and cooling.  It is interesting to find out how much loss of weight there is.  Since this pizza was just parbaked, I wonder how much weigh loss there was.  Also since the wind was so strong that it sent the pizza and box over two parking place, there was still loss in the cheese that ended up in the top of the box.  My daughter was walking the dogs and heard me yell, “O no, not my pizza”.   The person that was parked next to where it landed, almost ran over it.  They were backing up and luckily saw what happened.  They were laughing, too.  My daughter said she never saw me take off and run so fast.  At least we had a laugh over that.

In my opinion the sauce did have a different flavor than what Steve and I tested.  I will get Steve to also taste this parbaked pizza and see what he thinks.  In my opinion it tasted like some more added garlic and more oregano, or stronger oregano than we had used. 

I was surprised when I finally got to taste Mack’s real pie.  It shows what is in your mind, might not be so. In my opinion, it is just mild white cheddar, that goes into their pies.  Now to find the brand or something that tastes like it. 

In your opinion, what would have made this real Mack’s pizza have a breadier taste?  It was soft along with a little crispness.  Your recent experiment looks like you are getting great results.  I have to change my formula and see what happens. Do you have any ideas?  I think we are all getting closer, in finding out what goes into making a Mack’s pizza.

Thanks for your help,

Norma   

Mike,

Thanks for saying they are great pics.  I just love the ocean and everything that goes along with the shore.  My father used to help me dig sand crabs and fish at the shore, and even my granddaughter and I would put water in a bucket and look to see all the living things we found there.  It is amazing all the things that are in the water at the beach.  You are right, they are horseshoe crabs.  This one was still alive and I put it back in the ocean.  They are also amazing.  They look fierce, but don’t harm you.  That is also interesting that you knew someone from Wildwood. 

The picture you supplied looks beautiful.  I really liked getting up early and going out to see the sun come up on the horizon when I was small.

I am happy you are also going along in this experiment, 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I don't work with bromated flours so I haven't learned how they behave under different conditions. However, scott r, who has worked with such flours, says that when using such flours you will get a lighter, softer crust that still crisps up on the outside. I believe that there are also more alveoles in the crumb than with unbromated flours but they will be about the same size and packed more densely. Many of the slice photos you posted seem to exhibit that characteristic so maybe the bromates are responsible. Using a lot of oil might also produce a similar effect.

Since I have been using King Arthur bread flour, which is unbromated, I would have to think about using either ascorbic acid as a substitute for bromates (just as the big chains do to avoid using bromated flours) or else let the skin proof on the pizza screen for a while to allow the skin to get a bit more height before dressing and baking.

As far as my next experiment with this style is concerned, I think I may adjust the protein content of the KABF/VWG blend to more closely match the roughly 13.8-14.2% protein content of the Kyrol high-gluten flour. I will perhaps stick with the same hydration as I used with the last dough because I liked the way the dough handled when time came to open it up. I am thinking of increasing the weight of the dough by an ounce or so and to increase the amount of cheese to get a total unbaked pizza weight of around 36-37 ounces. For a nominal thickness factor (before using a bowl residue compensation), I am thinking of a TF of 0.07663. I am also thinking of using a longer bake at lower oven temperature in order to get the crispier rim characteristics that I noted from the photos and videos of the Mack's and M&M pizzas. 

Peter
 

[Essen1]

Peter,

Should I hold off on your first formula and wait until you have the new one together before I start making the Mack dough?

[norma427]

Peter,

I also don’t use bromated flours anymore, except in special circumstances like this.  I can’t  remember how the bromated flours did perform, but remember I really did like them.  I just wanted to get away from them, like many others.  I did use Kyrol flour in my first dough for this Mack’s clone pizza, so I will stay with that.  They sell it at our local country store, so it is easy to get in small amounts. 

Since you liked the way the dough handled in your last experiment, I will also try to go along the lines.  Your experiment now makes it easier for me and others that want to try this.  I was just wondering if there was some way I could mix this dough by hand and get the same results?  In my mixer at market, I have to at least mix 5 dough balls, for the hook to be able to pick everything up.  I will think about if I want to make the 5 dough balls, again.  When scott r said this dough is probably mixed for a long while in a fully loaded mixer, the idea of mixing by hand probably isn’t a good idea at this time.  Since I don’t have any home mixer this will give me something to think about. 

I also wanted to say while watching the piemen make the pizzas, it did seem like they added more cheese than I had originally thought.   I couldn't really tell how much, but it looked to be about 14 oz.

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Should I hold off on your first formula and wait until you have the new one together before I start making the Mack dough?

Mike,

I thought that you had already started a Mack's clone dough so my comments in my last post were mainly to provide some guidance to Norma. It may be a while before I make the next Mack's clone dough since I am still living off of the leftovers of my last pizza. However, so as not to slow you down, what I was thinking of as my next Mack's clone dough formulation, as created using the expanded dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, is the following:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%): Water (57%): IDY (0.20%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (163.7%):

341.08 g  |  12.03 oz | 0.75 lbs 194.42 g  |  6.86 oz | 0.43 lbs 0.68 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 6.82 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.22 tsp | 0.41 tbsp 10.23 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.25 tsp | 0.75 tbsp 5.12 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp 558.35 g | 19.69 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = 0.0773963

Note: For a single 18" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.07663; bowl residue compensation = 1%
*The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 332.85 grams (11.74 ounces) KABF and 8.23 grams (0.29 ounces) Hodgson Mill VWG (2 3/4 t.)

As you can see from the above dough formulation, I am planning to live or die with the 18" size. In your case, the corresponding dough formulation for the 14" size would be:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%): Water (57%): IDY (0.20%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (163.7%):

206.33 g  |  7.28 oz | 0.45 lbs 117.61 g  |  4.15 oz | 0.26 lbs 0.41 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp 4.13 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp 6.19 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp 337.77 g | 11.91 oz | 0.74 lbs | TF = 0.0773963

Note: For a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.07663; bowl residue compensation = 1%

I will sometimes make a change at the last moment as I am staring at the expanded dough calculating tool and thinking about things, but the above represents my current thinking. I did not note the KABF/VWG breakdown for the 14" size since I was not sure what kind of VWG you might use. However, using November's Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/, I used a 14% target for the value of the protein content of the blend.

I am also planning to use my Cuisinart 14-cup capacity food processor together with my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook to see if I can get results better than I can get using either machine alone. I haven't decided at this point what fermentation period I will be using. I think it will be three days again but I might go a bit shorter. This is a tougher issue because it looks like Mack's and maybe M&M are using an offsite mini-commissary to make dough balls for all of the stores. Since the stores are fairly close to each other, distance may not be a problem and, if there is adequate storage space at the mini-commissary, they may be able to make and store dough balls within a fairly wide window of usability. However, with the volume the stores seem to be doing, I would tend to guess shorter fermentation times rather than long ones. But that is just my educated guess. If I were in their shoes, I think I would want to use 1-2 days, which would mean using more yeast.

Peter