NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[Matthew]

What color would you suggest, Sir? 

Personally, I'd paint it to look like a pizza; but that's just me.   
Keep making those awesome pies bro!

Matt

[norma427]

I mixed another Mack’s clone dough today at market.  Five dough balls were made.  I mixed the same way as the last time using the same general lines discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251

Kyrol flour was used for this dough. Since scott r posted that they might be using a fairly long mix, this dough was mixed longer. From the beginning to end, the mix time was 25 minutes.  The oil was added last and it really took a long time for the oil to incorporate into the dough.

This is a video I took near the end of the mix.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7ZpaOueAeQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7ZpaOueAeQ</a>

The next four pictures are of the finished dough temperature, how dough looked when cut, dough balls balled, and one finished dough ball. 

Norma

[scott r]

Norma, I just wanted to point out that after your recent descriptions of the crust you had there, and also looking at the color of the dough there, I think macs may be using a very large percentage of oil in the dough.    IF this one doesn't work out for you try upping that oil even more.   

Also, I know the theory about adding the oil later in the mix, but I have found that it doesn't make a difference and can often force me to mix even longer than I want to.   I think I remember fellow forum member November commenting once on how oil at the beginning is fine, but I can't remember the details.    That oil later is a Lehmann thing, and although I have the highest respect for him there are just some things he teaches that dont always add up when I try and try them in practice.   

[Pete-zza]

scott r,

You have a good memory. I remember November's post on the matter of when to incorporate the oil in the dough (see Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4580.msg38695.html#msg38695). His reply led me to run a test on the timing of the oil inclusion, which I discussed at Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092. As noted there, I did not see any impairment of the hydration of the dough by adding the oil up front. I sometimes still experiment with the late addition of oil, just to have more tests to study. In general, I have found that when the amount of oil is low, say, 1% for a typical Lehmann dough, I could safely add the oil later in the process without any difficulty. But it the amount of oil gets to several percent, adding the oil later becomes more difficult and require longer kneading and, with my KitchenAid stand mixer, occasional intervention to help incorporate the oil by hand. Experiences like that led me to add the oil up front when I made the Papa John's clone doughs with over 7% oil. For the recent Mack clone doughs, I added the oil up front simply because I was using 3% oil.

I have never made a big issue of Tom Lehmann's position on this point because he was speaking in relation to the use of commercial mixers and I was working with a basic KitchenAid home stand mixer with a C-hook. It seemed possible to me that the commercial situation was different than mine.

Peter

[norma427]

scott r,

This is the formula I used to mix the dough today.  The formula does have 3% oil.  I used a blend of Canola & Soybean, because that is what I had at market.  After I used these dough balls up, what percentage of oil do you advise to use?  I will use the search and look where November might have mentioned how to mix the dough.  I was surprised how soft the dough became after mixing, with the lower hydration. Mack’s dough did look moist, before they placed them in the flour. Do you also have any idea what kind of oil I should use?  Since this dough was for 16" pizzas at the thickness factor of 0.07817, and I weighed a single dough ball out at 0.98 lbs, I was wondering when I looked at the dough balls how small there were.  When I went to Mack’s and saw their dough balls, they looked so much larger.  I know they were for 18" pizzas, but couldn’t imagine how much more dough they might be using for one pie.  Mine looked tiny in comparison.  I appreciate your advise.

16" pizza

Flour (100%):                       1360.96 g  |  48.01 oz | 3 lbs
Water (57%):                         775.74 g  |  27.36 oz | 1.71 lbs
IDY (0.20%):                              2.72 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Salt (2%):                            27.22 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.67 tsp | 1.89 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):    40.83 g | 1.44 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.99 tsp | 3 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):                            20.41 g | 0.72 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.12 tsp | 1.71 tbsp
Total (163.7%):                        2227.89 g | 78.59 oz | 4.91 lbs | TF = 0.07817
Single Ball:                  445.58 g | 15.72 oz | 0.98 lbs
               
Peter,

Do you have any other ideas what could be a formula for this Mack’s pie?  When November posted the more oil, the less water escapes the dough.  The less oil, the less extensible and more tough the dough is.  Did you find in other experiments this to be true?  It will take me awhile to understand this.  I never did any experiments along those lines. When you made your Mack’s clone the last time, what did you dough look like?  Maybe I should have added the oil up front, but my finished dough temperature was okay.  Any thoughts about how I should go about this the next time?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I will use the search and look where November might have mentioned how to mix the dough.

Norma,

You can read how November makes his dough at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572/topicseen.html#msg42572.

Peter,

Do you have any other ideas what could be a formula for this Mack’s pie?  When November posted the more oil, the less water escapes the dough.  The less oil, the less extensible and more tough the dough is.  Did you find in other experiments this to be true?  It will take me awhile to understand this.  I never did any experiments along those lines. When you made your Mack’s clone the last time, what did you dough look like?  Maybe I should have added the oil up front, but my finished dough temperature was okay.  Any thoughts about how I should go about this the next time?

As for possible things to try with a Mack clone dough, I mentioned before about the possibility of adding more oil to get the type of extensibility of the dough that I saw in the videos. At some point, that is something that might be worth trying. What November posted about the role of oil in dough, as you mentioned in the material quoted above, is something that I observe frequently. I observed it all the time with the Papa John clone doughs that I made. When I made the last Mack's clone dough, with the combination of food processor and KitchenAid stand mixer, the dough was firm yet smooth. It was not as soft or as malleable as a Papa John's dough clone, because that clone dough had over 7% oil. The hydration for the clone doughs was similar to what I used for the last Mack's clone dough.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Since this dough was for 16" pizzas at the thickness factor of 0.07817, and I weighed a single dough ball out at 0.98 lbs, I was wondering when I looked at the dough balls how small there were.  When I went to Mack’s and saw their dough balls, they looked so much larger.  I know they were for 18" pizzas, but couldn’t imagine how much more dough they might be using for one pie.  Mine looked tiny in comparison.

Norma,

As you know, I based most of what I have done on this project on the YouTube video at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc</a>

. As I viewed the video, I tried to get a measure of the size and weight of dough balls. For example, I looked at the dough balls (flattened) in the sheet pans and it looked like two flattened dough balls side by side filled the pan in the smaller dimension. I also looked at the size of the pizza maker's hands relative to the flattened dough balls. I looked at the thickness of the flattened dough balls as they were being shaped. After making a couple of the Mack's clones (one with all-purpose flour and the other with KABF/VWG), I came to the conclusion, right or not, that the dough balls I made looked and felt too large. The last Mack's clone dough I made looked and felt closer to what I saw in the video. scott r may have his own impressions of dough ball weight based on his review of the video and his personal experience.

I think I should have a better feel for dough ball weight after I make the next Mack's clone pizza with more cheese (and possibly more sauce), and weigh the pizza both unbaked and baked to get an idea as to the weight loss during baking. You already told us what the cooled par-baked 18" Mack's pizza weighed. I don't think a freshly baked Mack's pizza should weight a great deal more than the par-baked one.

Peter

[scott r]

After I used these dough balls up, what percentage of oil do you advise to use? 

Norma, with your more recent descriptions of the crust and the yellow color I saw in a few pic/videos, my guess is that it could be anywhere in the 3-8%  range.   If you see yellow, you know there is a lot of oil in there!  Notice that in pictures even your dough balls with 3% look pure white.   

Do you also have any idea what kind of oil I should use?

 
Most pizzerias tend to use an olive oil/canola oil blend.   Macks, is using a high end flour and cheese, however, so it is possible that they are using pure olive oil.  That is what I use and recommend, but I tend to go with a much smaller amount of oil or none at all.     I suppose if I were using 7% like Macks could be doing, I would probably save my money and do an olive/canola blend. 

Since this dough was for 16" pizzas at the thickness factor of 0.07817, and I weighed a single dough ball out at 0.98 lbs, I was wondering when I looked at the dough balls how small there were.  When I went to Mack’s and saw their dough balls, they looked so much larger.  I know they were for 18" pizzas, but couldn’t imagine how much more dough they might be using for one pie.  Mine looked tiny in comparison.  I appreciate your advise.

I would up the thickness factor.   Those look more like 750 gram dough balls to me, but I could be totally wrong.   

[scott r]

scott r,
But it the amount of oil gets to several percent, adding the oil later becomes more difficult and require longer kneading and, with my KitchenAid stand mixer, occasional intervention to help incorporate the oil by hand. Experiences like that led me to add the oil up front when I made the Papa John's clone doughs with over 7% oil. For the recent Mack clone doughs, I added the oil up front simply because I was using 3% oil.

I have never made a big issue of Tom Lehmann's position on this point because he was speaking in relation to the use of commercial mixers and I was working with a basic KitchenAid home stand mixer with a C-hook. It seemed possible to me that the commercial situation was different than mine.

Peter

Peter, commercial mixers really don't work much differently than a kitchen aid in this situation.   You have to play the same sorts of games or just wait it out, which can take a really long time.   

[norma427]

Peter,

Thank you for finding the link where November posted about mixing the dough.  That is interesting.  I never mixed dough that way before.

Since you posted that your dough was firm, yet smooth in your last Mack’s clone dough, I now am wondering what different results there were since I use the commercial mixer and mixed in a different way than you did.  The dough I made today seemed as soft as the last Mack’s clone dough I made.  It made me wonder how this could be with the lower hydration.  I haven’t tried too many experiments with dough.

If we ever come close to the dough Mack’s is using, then I will also try 18" pizzas.  I don’t have a 18" screen here at home, so I would have to bake the pies at market or either purchase a screen.  After looking at my dough today and then thinking back to last weekend, my dough looks so small. 

I am either going to try a Mack’s pizza here at home tomorrow or Sunday.  Should be interesting.  I left one dough ball in the deli case at market and brought 4 dough balls home.  I will freeze 3 of the dough balls after I watch how much the poppy seeds expand.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

scott r,

I know my dough balls looked pure white.  When I looked at the dough balls last weekend at Mack’s they weren’t really yellow, but more then the dough I made today. 

Maybe for the next experiment I will purchase some olive oil/canola blend.  You ideas on the weight of their dough balls are interesting.

I probably will experiment with a different mixing procedure the next time.  I guess the amount of oil will have to be determined.

Thanks for you advise,

Norma

[norma427]

After thinking about the color of the dough balls made today, I took one out of the refrigerator.  I only used my overhead light at market today. I am allowed to turn on the market lights, but want to save their power.  When all the other lights are out at market, it is very dark around my stand.  When I took those pictures this afternoon, I then wondered now what they really look like.  Here is one picture of what one dough ball looks like, now.  It does appear to be more yellow than the pictures I took today at market.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I used soybean oil for my Mack's clone doughs mainly because it seemed to me that that might be something that a boardwalk pizzeria with large volume might do. It would be cheaper than using olive oil and customers--and especially tourists who may never make a return visit to Mack's--might not be looking for an artisan type pie anyway. If I used olive oil, it might be a pomace olive oil, which is less costly than the better olive oils, but still with good flavor. Or, as scott r said, I might use an olive oil blend. The answer perhaps lies in tradition and custom as balanced against the desire to maximize profits without losing the locals and regulars.

On the matter of dough ball weight, the total numbers will have to add up. In Reply 220, you mentioned that the 18" (17" with shrinkage) par-baked Mack's pizza weighed 2lb. 2 oz. (34 ounces). The unbaked pizza obviously weighed more than that but maybe by not a lot. A 750-gram dough ball is almost 26.5 ounces. That doesn't leave a lot of weight for the cheese and sauce. That's why it becomes necessary to get pre-baked and baked weights, to see what the losses are during baking. Even then, there can be differences because home ovens are not the same as commercial ovens like the one used at Mack's.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

All depending on how this experiment goes, I might add some olive oil I have at market with the blend I used today.  Maybe that is another product that might come up if someone might see cans or containers near Mack’s.  I might be going to Mack’s another time in the next month.  I used olive oil in my regular dough, but have heard many other pizzerias use the pomace olive oil. 

I can understand that the numbers have to add up and can see your reasoning for the dough weights, you are now using.  I will weigh my pie before the pie is baked and after it is baked.  I won’t be able to figure out the numbers, because I am not that good with numbers.  You are going about figuring that out in the right way, because you are baking a 18" pie.  I am new to this reverse-engineering, so this whole process will teach me a lot.

Thanks,

Norma

[norma427]

I was still wondering about the color of the Mack’s clone dough I made yesterday.    I took the one dough ball that I had taken a picture of last night, and took it outside this morning, where there isn’t any artificial light.  This is a picture taken this morning.  To my eyes, it does appear to have a more yellow color than when taken at market. With three pictures taken of this one dough ball, it goes to show, there are 3 different colors when taking pictures.  I did use the same setting on my camera to take all three pictures.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I plan on using a dough ball today to try to make a clone Mack’s pizza.  I just wanted to ask you a question.  Since I already know the weight of the dough ball and am going to measure the sauce and cheese when I dress the pie, do I need to actually weigh the whole pizza when dressed before baking?  If I do need to weigh this pie before baking, how do you go about that?

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I just wanted to ask you a question.  Since I already know the weight of the dough ball and am going to measure the sauce and cheese when I dress the pie, do I need to actually weigh the whole pizza when dressed before baking?  If I do need to weigh this pie before baking, how do you go about that?

Norma,

If you know how much dough, cheese and sauce you plan to use, and those values are fixed, you can just add the numbers together to get the total weight. That should be close enough. You could also put your peel on the scale, tare it out, and then add the dough skin, cheese, sauce, and more cheese in sequence. That will give you another reading for the total dough weight. However, that method might be difficult to do with your scale because the peel/pizza will most likely block out the display and make it difficult for you to read it. In my case, since I am using a pizza screen, I am able to maneuver it to see my display. I also often don't know how much cheese or sauce I am going to use until I actually place them on the pizza skin. I add them in succession and use the tare feature after each addition. I note the weight of each item added to the pizza. As a final check, I will weight the total weight of the screen and unbaked pizza and subtract the weight of the screen.

To weigh the baked pizza, I would put something on your scale, like a cooling rack or pizza screen, tare out its weight, and add the baked pizza on the rack to get its weight. My scale has a glass platform so I have to be careful about putting a very hot pizza on it. Again, in your case, you may have to use something tall on your scale to be able to see the display.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for your advise.  I will try to get the exact weights.

Norma

[norma427]

I tried another Mack’s clone today.  I almost needed to call Forum Control again, because there were some problems.    More on that later.

I let the dough sit out at room temperature for 3 hrs.  The ambient temperature in my kitchen was 72 degrees F.  I forgot to bring my infrared thermometer home from market, so I didn’t have any way of telling what the accurate temperature of my oven was.  If I had to guess it was somewhere around 500 degrees F.  The oven was heated for 1 ½ hrs.  The pie was baked on the top rack on the 16" pizza stone. 

I weighed the sauce and cheese.  I first weighed the sauce and the weight was 7 oz.  I decided after I was dressing the pie that it didn’t seem like enough of sauce, so I weighed out another 1 oz.  The cheese was weighed at 9 oz.  I didn’t weigh the unbaked pie, because I then knew what weighs I had used.  I didn’t add up the weighs at this time. The baked pie weighed 1 lb. 109 oz.

I did remember to bring home a bigger peel.  When I went to load the pie into the oven, somehow the pie slide off the peel and the edge went off the stone, again and it just stuck there.  Well I knew I was going to have another mess.  This mess was bigger than the last mess.  That is when I thought I needed to call Forum Control..Help!!!!    Well, after baking the pie for a little while the cheese and sauce went off the edge and the smoke alarms kept going off.  I did try to put towels over them, but had to watch the pie.  This even continued after I removed the pie from the oven for a little while.  This pie took a little over 5 minutes to bake.

On the pictures it can be seen where the crust went off the stone a little on two sides.

Norma

[norma427]

continued pictures

[norma427]

continued pictures