NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[norma427]

last two pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I also took another stab at a Mack’s clone dough/pizza, fortunately without any mishaps. The main objective was to try to get a handle on the relative weights of dough, cheese and sauce. In some respects, I think I moved one step forward but fell back two, as I will discuss more fully below.

The starting point for the latest dough formulation was to assume that I needed a lot more cheese and sauce than I had been using based on what you reported from your recent visit to Mack’s and also my estimates of dough, cheese and sauce weights. That meant I would not need as much dough. So, with these considerations in mind, I decided to use a 19.5-ounce dough ball, around 12 ounces of white cheddar cheese, and about 7.5 ounces of pizza sauce. The 19.5-ounce dough ball placed it in between the last two Mack’s clone dough balls I made.

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the following dough formulation:

King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG Blend* (100%): Water (57.5%): IDY (0.20%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.5%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (163.7%):

341.08 g  |  12.03 oz | 0.75 lbs 196.12 g  |  6.92 oz | 0.43 lbs 0.68 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 6.82 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.22 tsp | 0.41 tbsp 8.53 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp 5.12 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp 558.35 g | 19.69 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = 0.0773963

Note: Dough for a single 18” pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.07663; bowl residue compensation = 1%
*The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 332.85 grams (11.74 ounces) KABF and 8.23 grams (0.29 ounces) Hodgson Mill VWG (2 ¾ t.)

I prepared the dough in the same manner as the last Mack’s clone dough, using my Cuisinart 14-cup capacity food processor (with the plastic blade) and my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. That combination once again did a nice job of making the dough. I took note of the color of the final dough ball and it was a distinctly light yellow. However, it should be noted that the KABF I was using is not a bleached flour. I suspect that the Kyrol high-gluten flour is.

The dough fermented in the refrigerator for about three days. Based on the poppy seeds I placed on the dough ball at the outset, the dough doubled between days 2 and 3 and was about 125% larger after 72 hours, at which time I used the dough, after a bench warm-up time of 1 ¾ hours at 75 degrees F, to make the pizza. As with the last Mack’s clone dough, the dough wasn’t as robust as the dough balls I saw in the videos, but, as before, I had no problems opening up the dough ball to 18”. I could stretch and toss the dough skin with relative ease.

I dressed the pizza on my 18” pizza screen as I did before but using the greater quantities of cheese and sauce. The cheese was all mild white cheddar cheese (the same O Organic brand cheese I used before). The sauce this time was a deeper red Contadina pizza sauce that I blended with an immersion stick blender to smooth out and to which I added a bit of water to make the sauce flow better out of my plastic squeeze bottle. The total unbaked pizza weight was just shy of 39 ounces. I baked the pizza on the 18” pizza screen on the second from the top oven rack position of my electric oven. After about 4 minutes, I shifted the pizza off of the screen (which I then removed from the oven) onto my 14” x 16” pizza stone that I had placed at the outset on the lowest oven rack position of my oven. The oven and stone had been preheated for over an hour at around 500-525 degrees F. The pizza stayed on the stone for about another three minutes. The baked pizza weighed 33.63 ounces. That represented a loss during baking of a bit less than 13.5%. In my preliminary calculations, I had assumed a likely loss of 10%, mainly because of the thinness of the dough skin and the large surface area of the pizza.

The photos below show the finished pizza. My overall impression is that there was too much cheese and sauce relative to the thinness and weight of the crust. That made the slices softer and more floppy than before. I also thought that the pizza was too cheesy and too saucy for my palate. I am at a disadvantage here since I have never had a Mack’s pizza or slice to compare my pizza against. I also concluded that the cheddar cheese I was using, and have been using (including the extra sharp variety), breaks down too quickly during baking. That resulted in the release of a large amount of fat that dripped all over the place. I should add that I had used both the sauce and cheese cold out of the refrigerator in an effort to slow down the cooking of the cheese. Since that wasn’t the solution, I may have to consider adding the second round of cheese right after I move the pizza off of the screen and before putting it onto the pizza stone. Otherwise, I would have to think about a longer bake at a lower oven temperature.

I thought the overall configuration of the pizza was in line with the other Mack clones I previously made. I pressed the rim of the skin to keep it as flat as possible and to minimize a lot of bubbles in the finished crust. The rim of the finished crust, however, did exhibit blistering. The flavor and color of the finished crust were fine from my perspective. It was the balance discussed above that seems to be out of order.

I will have to think some more on the latest results but my preliminary thinking is that I may have to use a larger dough ball and less cheese and less sauce. I still think the unbaked pizza target will be fairly close to 39 ounces using my oven and the way I baked the pizza. I think that 37 ounces may be the target I will next use, on the theory that the reconfigured dough weight will result in a pizza that will not sustain as much weight loss during baking as the pizza I made today.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

And the slice pics....

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

It is interesting that now you have the assumption that you might need less cheese.  In my opinion for the pie I baked today, I think I need to add more cheese.  Although the cheese was gooey, it didn’t grease the plate like before.  I also have to rethink this.

My dough didn’t expand as much as yours, using the poppy seed trick, but if you look at the picture of the opened skin, you will see tiny bubbles.  I wonder what is causing that.  I only cold-fermented for 2 days.  I really don’t know if I should have left the dough ball warm-up that long, but I was working outside and wanted to get finished there.

I used the State brand of mild white cheddar.  It seems to perform well in the oven.  If I have calculated right, I think my pizza before it was baked was 26.10 oz.  Right after baking, I think the pie was 22.72 oz. In my opinion I think the amount of sauce I used was about right, but I can’t be sure.  I am not good at figuring all these things out on paper.

I also pressed the skin just about like the piemen do.  My dough was also easy to handle and I did twirl it.  There weren’t any tears or rips.  I think I might have stretched my skin too big, because then I had the oven issues.  I didn’t measure the skin after I stretched it and put it on the peel.  This is a peel I don’t use much and just keep it at market incase I need it.  Another consideration for the future.  Think to measure the skin.

Your Mack’s clone looks delicious and I wish I could have tried a slice.    Did your pie get the little bit of crisp on the crust?  Did you just bake your pie today?  Do you use the marble on your table to open your dough ball?

My daughter and I both had two slices of the pie I made today and we think it tastes almost like a Mack’s pie, but it is either the cheese or the sauce that something isn’t right with.  The crust did taste like a Mack’s pizza, but there is room for improvement.

I just bought another bag of the Kyrol flour and it is bleached. 

Any other ideas on how I what I can do to improve my pie?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I think this is one of those cases where, if I had my pizza on the Wildwood boardwalk, I would have either thrown the pizza under the boardwalk--where the Drifters are on their blankets with their baby's--or let the birds have it. Just kidding, but it was not as enjoyable as my last two Mack's clones  .

You indicated that your unbaked pizza weight was 26.1 ounces. If your dough ball weight was 15.72 ounces, per Reply 284, that would have left 26.1-15.72= 10.38 ounces for the cheese and sauce. You indicated earlier that you used 8 ounces of sauce and 9 ounces of cheese. That would have come to a total of 32.72 ounces. Did I get something wrong?

I did bake the pie today. I used my kitchen table with the marble insert to get more natural light for the photos. I did not use the marble surface to work the dough. The crust of the finished pizza was a combination of chewy and a little crackery. The first of the three Mack clone pizzas with the KABF/VWG seemed to come closest to the descriptions I have read about the characteristics of the Mack's pizza. That is the pizza that was baked with the stone on the topmost oven rack position of my oven.

I don't have any suggestions at this time for you to consider. I am still thinking of how I will next proceed.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I feel the same way about the parbaked pizza I bought from Mack’s, that you now feel about the pizza you just made.  It sure wasn’t good, like Mack’s pies are.  Even when reheated, in my opinion they are nothing special.  Mack’s parbaked could have gone under the boardwalk with no problem. 

You are at a distinct disadvantage, because you have never tasted a Mack’s pizza.  I am glad you are going along and helping this thread.  You can only go by what others are saying or watching the videos.  The pie I made today in my home oven came closer to a Mack’s pizza in my opinion. The bottom crust and the part crispy rim is something similar to Mack’s pizza.

You are right about my calculations, again.  I just added them up again and can’t figure out how I came to that conclusion.  I did tare out both the metal peel, then the plastic container, before I placed the pizza on top.  I did have the baked pizza on the metal peel, then shifted it to the wood peel and then back to the metal peel.  I must have done something wrong somewhere along the process.  A bunch of my old friends took me out last night and were trying to get me drunk.  They didn’t succeed, because I would only drink so much, but they had me dancing all evening and I am tired today. We were dancing to the Groove Dawgs.  http://www.thegroovedawgs.com/Dawg_House.html It was fun, but I am not used to that much excitement. That might be the cause or just faulty measurements, again.

I also have to rethink what my next plans are.  I might try a dough ball at market Tuesday.

Norma

[norma427]

I didn’t make another Mack’s clone at market yesterday because I still had two slices to eat.  Also it was raining hard when I left for market and didn’t want to carry more items than I had to.

I reheated two slices of the Mack’s clone pizza, that were made on Sunday.  The taste of this Mack’s clone reheated is decent.  It reminded me of the slices that were taken back to the place we were staying, and then reheated, when we went to visit Wildwood.  These two slices were better in my opinion than the Mack’s pizza reheated.  But then I did reheat the Mack’s slices in the microwave and reheated these slices in the oven on a stone. 

Pictures below are of the cold slices, heated slices and sea shells my daughter and I collected while we were visiting Wildwood.  I have a flower bed where I have placed sea shells from where ever I visited that had sea shells.  The bigger ones will go there and the little ones will go in house plants.  At least when I look at these sea shells it reminds me where I have visited and brings back good memories.  I have been collecting sea shells for many years. Many from Wildwood and Cape May.  I also now collect Victorian Yeast Trading Cards.  Since I have been making pizza, I started this new collection.  They are very interesting   Most are from the late 1800's and can be bought on ebay for cheap.  I usually won’t pay over 3.99 for one.  There is added shipping of about 1.60.  Most I won or purchased were .99 to 1.99.  If anyone one is interested in looking at some of these Victorian Trading Cards, just put yeast in the search at Ebay.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

The photos below show the results of my latest effort to make a Mack’s clone pizza. The major differences from the last effort were the following: 1) the dough ball weight was increased to 21 ounces, 2) the hydration was lowered to 55%, 3) the oil (I used olive oil this time) was increased to 5%, 4) the dough was used after 91 hours of cold fermentation (I extended this period by using ice cold water in making the dough), and 5) I used about 12 ounces of cheese and about 7 ounces of sauce.

As discussed more fully below, I also used a pre-bake as a way of depositing the cheese so that the cheese wouldn’t overcook and break down. This method was used because I do not have a source of white cheddar cheese that can withstand temperatures above about 500-525 degrees F in my electric oven without breaking down and releasing excessive amounts of fat. The cheese that I used this time was actually a blend of shredded extra sharp white cheddar cheese, mild white cheddar cheese, and low-moisture part-skim (LMPS) mozzarella cheese. The mild white cheddar cheese and the LMPS mozzarella cheese were leftover cheeses and were only used, together with the extra sharp white cheddar cheese, to get a total weight of 12 ounces. The ratio of these cheeses was 39/35/26. The sauce was just a plain sauce that I defrosted from a previous sauce recipe. Again, since I don’t have the correct sauce, I was more interested in the weight at this point.

The dough formulation prepared using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html was as follows:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%): Water (55%): IDY (0.20%): Salt (2%): Olive Oil (5%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (163.7%):

367.32 g  |  12.96 oz | 0.81 lbs 202.03 g  |  7.13 oz | 0.45 lbs 0.73 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 7.35 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 18.37 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.08 tsp | 1.36 tbsp 5.51 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp 601.3 g | 21.21 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A

* The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 356.71 grams (12.58 ounces) of King Arthur Bread flour and 10.61 grams (0.37 ounces) of Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten (a bit more than 3 ½ t.), based on a total protein content of 14.2% and using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/
Note: Dough is for a single 18” inch pizza; the corresponding nominal thickness factor = 0.08252; bowl residue compensation = 1%

The dough was prepared the same way as the recent Mack’s clone doughs, using the combination of my Cuisinart 14-cup capacity food processor and basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. Although the dough had more oil than the previous Mack’s clone doughs, the color of the dough did not seem much yellower than the previous doughs. When time came to use the dough, it was tempered at room temperature for about 1 ½ hours. I found the dough ball easy to open and shape and stretch to 18”. It had a good balance of elasticity and extensibility although the skin did have a slight tendency to contract when I placed it onto my 18” pizza screen. However, I noted that the Mack's workers in the video at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc</a>

also experienced that effect as well. Overall, I would say that the latest dough ball was the best of the ones I have made as part of this project from the standpoint of being able to work with it without it getting away from me or developing thin spots or other imperfections. It could be stretched easily and tossed.

The pizza was dressed in the same way as the previous Mack clone pizzas except that this time I divided the cheese blend into two portions. The first portion, which came to 5 ounces, was distributed on the skin as was done with my previous efforts. The pizza sauce was then swirled onto the pizza in a spiral pattern, using a squeeze bottle in the same manner as previously described. I then placed the pizza, on the 18” pizza screen, on the second from the top oven rack position of my oven. The oven, together with a 14” x 16” inch pizza stone on the lowest most oven rack position, had been preheated for an hour at about 500 degrees F. This was a bit lower oven temperature than I have been using because I wanted the pizza to bake more slowly and for a longer time so as to achieve a more crispy and cracker-like rim. The pizza on the upper rack position baked for about 4-5 minutes, or until the crust had set enough to allow me to remove the pizza off of the screen. However, rather than moving the partially-baked pizza directly onto the pizza stone, as I have done before, I removed the pizza entirely from the oven, quickly added the remaining cheese blend (7 ounces), and returned the pizza back to the oven and on top of the pizza stone. The pizza then baked for an additional 4 minutes or so, or until the rim of the pizza was browned and with the cheeses still intact (that is, not broken down).  

I should note at this point that the method I used to bake the pizza was primarily to keep the cheeses from breaking down and excessively oiling off. If someone has a white cheddar cheese that can tolerate a 500 degrees F oven temperature or higher without breaking down and excessively oiling off, as appears to be the case with the white cheddar cheese that Norma has been using, it should be possible to put all of the cheese on the pizza as it is being dressed. Also, if one has a pizza stone that can handle an 18” pizza, it should be possible to bake the pizza on that stone without the need of a pizza screen and the two-step baking process that is necessary when using a pizza screen. As I have noted before, I have to use a pizza screen because my stone cannot handle an 18” pizza by itself.

Overall, the methods I used seem to work well. The finished pizza weighed 962 grams, or about 33.93 ounces. By contrast, the weight of the ingredients that went into the pizza before baking and after the pre-bake, was 1101 grams, or 38.84 ounces. That represented a loss during pre-baking and the final bake of 139 grams, or 4.90 ounces, or about 14.5%. These numbers suggest that my latest pizza was perhaps 1-2+ ounces too heavy, based on Norma’s recent report that the par-baked pizza she purchased from Mack’s was 34 ounces. To put the next iteration of the pizza on a diet, I think I might use slightly less sauce and maybe slightly less cheese, or possibly some other apportionment of these two items.

In terms of the finished characteristics of the pizza, I would say that the latest pizza seemed to capture the look and feel of an authentic Mack’s pizza better than my previous versions. The crust evidenced blistering along with some large bubbles in the finished crust. The rim was fairly flat (I had intentionally flattened the rim of the unbaked skin) and stiffer and more cracker-like than my previous efforts. The slices themselves were fairly soft and floppy away from the rim, and foldable. The crust flavors were good. The total weight of the pizza seems to be close to the Mack’s target, although I can’t say whether the amounts of cheese and sauce are correct. As before, I still don’t have any idea as to how close these characteristics match up with a real Mack’s pizza. No doubt, having a better cheese and sauce would go a long way to improving my version of the Mack’s pizza even if the dough is not the correct one. Norma or others familiar with the Mack’s pizzas will have to sort out these issues.

The photos appear below.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

And the slice photos...

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

You latest Mack’s clone pizza looks delicious.    Did your longer fermentation give the crust a greater flavor than your last Mack’s clone.  It would seem to me that your latest pie, would be more flavorful than a real Mack’s pizza.  With the lower hydration and added oil it seems like this is a better approach to making a Mack’s clone. Your finished pie does look like a Mack’s pizza.

I find it interesting how you combined cheeses and then parbaked to keep the cheese from oiling off. 

I don’t really think you need to put the pizza on a diet, with less of anything.   

Steve and I also tried another Mack’s clone pizza today.  We did weight almost everything.  I think the only thing we forgot to weigh was the pizza when it was dressed, before the bake. We only remembered that after we put the pie in the oven. I only used a dough ball that was frozen from my last stab at the Mack’s clone and tried another kind of mild white cheddar cheese that I found at my local grocery store.  I will try your recent formula with my next attempt for the Mack’s clone, since yours looks closer to a real Mack’s pie than ours did today.  When I get finished getting all the notes down and writing what we did today, I will post the results as what happened with pictures, probably tomorrow.  The Mack’s clone today did taste okay, but still the cheese isn’t right. It didn’t break down and had the oiling of the Mack’s pie. Your crust also looks better than ours. These pictures are of the kind of cheese we tried out and one picture of the finished pie.

I still don’t know how we are ever going to get the cheese right for a Mack’s clone.  Even if we find out what brand of cheese Mack’s is using it might be one of those kinds of mild white cheddar that only comes in 40 lb. blocks.  The only thing I can think of right now is to try different kinds of mild white cheddar that can be found at my local grocery stores.  At least that way someone will be able to reproduce the Mack’s clone at home if we ever get this right.  When I got home today Foremost Farms did send the sample bag of cheese, but it is a blend of part-skim mozzarella, provolone and mild white cheddar.  They also told me before that the mild white cheddar they handle only comes in 40 lb. blocks.

Norma

[norma427]

Steve and I tried another Mack’s clone at market, yesterday.  I used a dough ball that was frozen from my last attempt.  The dough ball was left in the deli case most of the day to defrost.  When the dough ball was taken out, it had completely defrosted.  The dough ball was just left on the counter until I grated the cheese with a hand grater and we made a few regular pizzas.

Steve opened the dough, pressed the whole dough ball, twirled the pie, put the cheese on first, then the sauce (with a ketchup bottle), and then added the extra cheese.  The dough didn’t tear and was fairly easy to open.  The cheese we tried this time was Heluva Good Brand of mild white cheddar, that I purchased at my local grocery store.  The cheese weighed 8oz.  On the nutritional facts it said there was 9 grams of total fat. We used the whole 8 oz. of the Heluva Good Brand of mild white cheddar cheese to dress the pie. Steve weighed the sauce and we tared out the bottle for the sauce..  We used a total of 7.6 oz. of Gangi sauce that had added herbs and sugar.  We forgot to weigh the unbaked pie.  We did weigh the baked pie right out of the oven.  First we weighed the metal pizza peel, that we would be taking the pizza out of the oven with. It weighed 1.516 lbs. As can be seen on one of these pictures how much the freshly baked pie weighed, minus the weight of the metal pizza peel. The attempted Mack’s clone pie was 1.844 lbs. freshly baked.  It was hot today, so two fans were running.  The scale is sensitive, so the weighs fluctuated a little from the fans.  We also wanted to see how much weigh loss there was while the pie was cooling, so we left the pie on the scales and watched how much loss there was in weight.  At 150 degrees F we saw some weight loss.  When the pie temperature fell to 125 degrees F., the pizza weighed 3.330 lb., minus the weight of the metal pizza peel.  Since neither of us had ever done this test before after baking a pie, we were amazed how much a pie loses weigh while cooling.  We tried to take a picture of the temperature of the pie, with the scale in the background, but infrared gauge doesn’t show up right in the picture.

As we continue to try and duplicate a Mack’s clone, even though I have recently tasted a real Mack’s pizza, both Steve and I have discussed how hard it is to come up with a decent formula for a clone.  I also bought another kind of mild white cheddar when I purchased the Heluva Good Brand.  It is called Biery mild white cheddar.  If I get a chance to mix another dough this week or weekend, I will then try the Biery mild white cheddar in another attempt to clone the Mack’s pizza.  The Biery brand also has 9 grams of fat.  Steve used this kind of mild white cheddar for 3 Greek pizzas he made yesterday.  The cheese tasted something like Mack’s in the Greek Pizza.  He used the mild white cheddar in combination with mozzarella cheese.  The cheese didn’t break down in the oven, so maybe this is another brand that might come close to what Mack’s is using.  Only time will tell this, also. 

In light of Peter’s recent experiment with the clone Mack’s pizza, I think I will follow his formula for the next attempt.  His formula seems better than what I had been previously using.  I am glad he posted his results. That will help me in the next attempt.  If anyone has any better ideas of what I should attempt in my next experiment with the Mack’s clone, or what I might have done wrong, I would appreciate any ideas.  I really don’t know how to figure out how much sauce and cheese I should be using since I am only trying a 16" pie now. 

As I said in my last post, the pie was tasty, but the cheese still isn’t right.  There was a crunch to the crust and some softness, but this also wasn’t the way I remembered the real Mack’s pizza.  I had also taken two slices of the parbaked pizzas to market today to try out again, but both Steve and I were full of pizza after tasting his 3 Greek pizzas and then the Mack’s clone.

Norma

[norma427]

rest of pictures

Norma

[sear]

how to you like the balance of sauce when applied like that ?
They said it was done to save time.

all this effort to make the same pie as mack is amazing. especially Pete, never even tried a slice 

is there a "Norma Pizza" or a "Pete-zza Pizza " recipe yet ?   

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Since I have been making 18" pies and you have been making 16" pies, an easy way to scale down from 18" to 16" is to take the weight of the major ingredients--the dough, cheese and sauce--for an 18" pie and multiply those values by 64/81, which is the ratio of the squares of the two radii (8" and 9") for the two pizza sizes. For example, I used a dough ball weight of 21 ounces. I chose that size because it is a nice round number and on the assumption that Mack's would be unlikely to pick an oddball weight for its dough balls (assuming they, or a machine that forms the dough balls, are weighing them). To scale that dough ball weight to a 16" size, the math is 16 x 64/81 = 16.59 ounces. Of course, since I calculated and posted the equivalent nominal thickness factor (0.08252) for my 18" pizza, you could use that number in the expanded dough calculating tool to get the quantities of ingredients needed to make a 16" pizza. With respect to the cheese, I used about 12 ounces. For a 16" pizza, the corresponding value would be 12 x 64/81 = 9.48 ounces (or 9.5 ounces rounded off). I used about 7 ounces of sauce. The corresponding amount for a 16" pizza is 7 x 64/81 = 5.53 ounces (or 5.5 ounces rounded off).

Of course, I could be wrong on the split of the numbers. However, based on all the numbers that have been reported on this matter, I believe that the total weight of an unbaked 18" Mack's clone pizza is around 38 ounces. That is based on my oven and bake protocol and the type of weight losses I have been experiencing. Your oven and bake protocol might well be different and produce different weight losses. However, for calculation purposes, converting 38 ounces to a 16" case, the total unbaked weight for a 16" pizza would be about 38 x 64/81 = 27.65 ounces. That value would have to be split between the weight of the dough, the weight of the cheese and the weight of the sauce. When I have made my Mack's clones, I tried to mimic what I saw in the video at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc</a>

. In looking at the photo you posted of the skin with the first layer of cheese, that strikes me to be about right. The first layer of cheese is fairly sparse. I also noticed in the video that the second application of cheese seems to be less evenly distributed, with "clumps" of the shredded cheese here and there. That might help explain why the finished pizza seems to have a fair amount of cheese yet the sauce shows through in many places. I think I will try that approach next time. However, I will confess that the Mack's pizzas seem to have many different looks. Even within the abovementioned video the pizzas don't look exactly alike. The Mack's photos we have seen elsewhere on the Internet also have many different looks. I think that Mack's uses doughs with all kinds of ages. I say this because some of the photos evidence long fermentation, with blisters and the like, whereas others indicate short fermentations, with smooth surfaces at the rim with uniform color and no blistering or bubbling.

One of the things I am now considering is attempting a dough with more oil and a shorter fermentation time, maybe as little as a day. One of the mysteries is why the Mack's dough skins don't have any bubbling in them as they are formed on the bench. My last dough skin had fewer bubbles but there were still some. Maybe more oil and a short fermentation and modest temper time might produce that result. We don't know what goes on behind the curtain where they make the dough and what kind of dough storage facilities Mack's has, but as a large volume operation, I would think that they move their dough balls in and out pretty quickly.

You asked earlier about the crust flavors of my last Mack's clone. To be honest, I can't say that I noticed a big difference. Also, I was preoccupied thinking about what I had done that I didn't focus on the crust flavors. I will have to pay closer attention when I reheat the leftover slices.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

all this effort to make the same pie as mack is amazing. especially Pete, never even tried a slice 

James,

Norma is my "seeing eye dog" so to speak. Unless I am trying to demonstrate a point, I usually prefer to wait until I feel I have succeeded with a clone dough formulation before posting it and discussing it. Typically it is someone else who has to tell me if I succeeded. However, since Norma is the only one who knows the real Mack's pizza, or some other member who is helping out, I am trying to help her to make it to the promised land by posting my results as I achieve them. However, trying to replicate a pizza you have never eaten before or at least seen in person does put your knowledge and research skills and instincts to the test. It is a humbling and sometimes frustrating experience.

Peter

[sear]

James,

Norma is my "seeing eye dog" so to speak. Unless I am trying to demonstrate a point, I usually prefer to wait until I feel I have succeeded with a clone dough formulation before posting it and discussing it. Typically it is someone else who has to tell me if I succeeded. However, since Norma is the only one who knows the real Mack's pizza, or some other member who is helping out, I am trying to help her to make it to the promised land by posting my results as I achieve them. However, trying to replicate a pizza you have never eaten before or at least seen in person does put your knowledge and research skills and instincts to the test. It is a humbling and sometimes frustrating experience.

Peter

oh i believe you !! 

what about my other question ? do you have recipe you call your own ?

[DavePZ]

Hey Guys -

I have been making pizza's along with you over the last couple months, and have tried 7 or 8 different mild chedders in an effort to duplicate the unique cheese flavor of Mack's.

The other day I recieved another chedder cheese from a place online. I think its by far the best so far. I got from: http://www.henningscheese.com/, and its the Mild White Chedder. It was not cheap including shipping, so I don't think I can afford to keep buying it, but I would love to get someone else's opinon on this one. And if someone has seen this in a store, please let me know.

Thanks!

[Pete-zza]

what about my other question ? do you have recipe you call your own ?

James,

I thought that you meant a Mack's clone dough formulation, where the answer would be "not yet". If you meant some other recipe that is uniquely mine, I would say that the answer is no. I do manipulate recipes all the time but I don't view that as being noteworthy. I think of myself as more of a mechanic (and hopefully a passable one) trying to master his craft rather than an inventor.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thank you for explaining how to scale down my weight.  I will try to do that in my next iteration or maybe try to make a 18" pizza.  At this time, I haven’t decided whether to try and bake my next pie in my home oven or at market. 

I also agree that the Mack’s pizzas have so many looks in looking at the different pictures of their crusts. I have also seen them free throwing the cheese.  It looked like there was a fair amount of cheese used, in the different times I watched.  I don’t think we will ever be able to accurately predict how much cheese they do use with all the free throwing or even trying to guess how much sauce is put on each pie.  That is also just as each pie man dictates.  There isn’t any accurate measurements.  After thinking about this, I can now believe their pizzas could weigh differently with each one after being baked.  The only way to tell that would be to weigh different real Mack’s pizzas, but I know that isn’t possible.

I can’t really believe at this point that Mack’s would cold ferment their dough for longer than a day or two.  I think it just would create too much confusion, with all the pies they sell in the summer.  This could also not make too many fermentation bubbles in the crust.

That is also something that puzzles me about their skins don’t seem to have any fermentation bubbles when opening the dough.  The pizzas we tried yesterday didn’t seem to have as many fermentation bubbles as the last dough I tried at home, but then I didn’t give the dough much warm-up time yesterday. 
            
I wish I could go behind the curtain and really see how they operate, but know that is impossible. 

Let me know if you decide to make any changes in you next attempt.  I might also change my formula closer to yours, to see what kind of results I get.  Since you have played around with experimenting with more doughs that I ever can imagine, your help is appreciated. 

Sorry to make you go though this whole process, when you haven’t ever even tasted a Mack’s pizza.  You sure are the mechanic and more than passable in trying to help with this thread.

Norma

sear,

If you want to try one of the formulas that either Peter or I posted, I believe it would get you somewhere near and real Mack’s pie, but still we don’t have this whole thing figured out, or possibly never will have it exactly like a Mack’s pizza.  I am the “seeing eye dog”, so to speak, but I am not able to try a real Mack’s pizza each week.  As I found out before, what I remembered from five years ago, wasn’t really accurate.  I now question my abilities to even remember exactly what their pizzas tasted like only a few weeks ago.  It is the mild white cheddar taste in my opinion that makes their pizzas stand out.  Of course the crust has something to do with the final taste also.  I still have some of the Gangi sauce, but soon will run out of that.  I might just try some regular tomato paste, or either try some of the Stanislaus products that are extra heavy with basil that I normally use in my pizzas.

Norma

DavePZ,

Thanks for saying you also have been trying to create a Mack’s clone pizza.  I will look in the stores around me to see if I can find the brand you said is the closest in your opinion.  I don’t think I am going to go about purchasing cheese online.  Since the cheese is the most expensive ingredient in making this pizzas, it can get expensive in trying new kinds.  Keep us informed of your progress.  If you have time to post some pictures, it would be helpful to see how your pizzas look and also how the cheese melts.

Norma

[norma427]

how to you like the balance of sauce when applied like that ?
They said it was done to save time.  

sear,

Sorry, I forgot to answer you question.  In my opinion, I like the sauce that is applied with a squeeze bottle.  It  does combine with the mild white cheddar very well, while baking the whole pizza. 

In the video and while watching them apply the sauce, the pie men did say this step was to save time.  The last day I went to visit Mack's pizza, they weren't busy and were applying the sauce with some kind of stainless steel kettle.  It looked much like a stainless steel tea pot, like I used to use when I was making funnel cakes.  The pouring spout was fairly large and as I watched, it looked like more sauce was applied for the parbaked pie I brought home.  Maybe they only use the hose when they are busy.  Really I don't know. 

Norma