Limp Dough Stuck Immediately to Peel

[duegatti]

Last dough was either identical or very close in formulation to a previous, normal result.  64% hydration; I believe 0.3% IDY (I'm away from my records, and hoping to get some advice before making dough this evening); temperature at completion was 77 F, even though I used ice water; I believe that was due to attempted longer kneeding and mixing and warm/humid ambient conditions.  It didn't seem overly fermented when I took it out (after two days in the fridge).  I let it warm up for 3 hrs, did not take its temperature.  It spread out easily, but when I put it on the peel, I could not shake it successfully; it was sticking.  Woofed some corn meal underneath and kept it mobile.  When I put it on the stone, it almost poured off of the peel and seemed to be capable of further extension very easily.

I'm interested in all the knobs I can turn for tonight, to avoid this.  I think the kitchen was warm and humid, relatively, that day.  My list of knobs includes:

1) 63% water instead of 64%
2) Lower IDY
3) Aim for cooler finished dough temperature (less kneeding/mixing time)
4) Less warming time out of the refrigerator

Am I thinking correctly?  Anything else I can or should do?

Thanks,

Joe

[Pete-zza]

Joe,

I think you hit all of the major points. I don't know where you live and what your kitchen temperature is, but I would have problems with over-extensibility if I let my dough sit at room temperature for three hours this time of year. So, my first knob would be to dial down the warm-up time. You might try about an hour if your room temperature is above 80 degrees F. The second knob to turn would be to dial down the hydration. However, I don't think a 1% lowering of the hydration would have much of an effect. I think you would have to go down to about 58-59% to see a material difference in extensibility. My recollection is that you have a mixer of some sort, so there isn't a great deal more that you can do if you are using ice cold water to keep the finished dough temperature down. I would line up all of the ingredients in advance and work fast to make the dough. If I were using an autolyse or similar rest period, I would skip it. I would dispense with any other delays or rest periods used in making the dough. I would just make a straight dough and get it into the refrigerator promptly, without a warm-up at room temperature before putting the dough into the refrigerator. If you feel that you have to use autolyse and other rest periods, you will have to make adjustments elsewhere. One possible change would be to reduce the duration of the rest periods.

You can try the above suggestions individually or collectively. You could also lower the yeast quantity, but I usually don't do that unless there is no other choice. I try to get the finished dough temperature in the 75-80 degrees F range, and make any adjustments later, based on the outcomes I achieve.

Of course, there are many potential solutions involving cornmeal, flour and other release agents for preventing or minimizing the sticking of the dough to the peel, but I assume that you are looking for more prophylactic measures, especially since you did not mention peel release agents in your list.

Peter

[duegatti]

Precisely.

With my dough finishing at 77, I am in your desired range.  I had thought the range was lower, but I did not remember correctly, then or now.  So going too long on the warm up time sounds likely.  I also believe that the dishwasher was run during the warm up, in close proximity to the dough.  I've never operated knowingly in the 58-59% hydration region, so I will not change from my 64% to look for a solution.

There was no autolyze, and no rest periods - I pretty much followed the Lehman procedure, although I did go for the full final mixer/knead time.  And, as we've seen, the final dough temperature was, in fact, in spec.  I'll stick with my yeast level, as well.  (And not run the dishwasher!)

Thanks very much; I think I will get started now.

Joe

[Pete-zza]

Joe,

I tried to cover as many of the possibilities that came to mind within the context of your post, but I would do just as you plan to do--reduce the bench warm-up time. If that doesn't work, you can try some of the other possible solutions. Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

[duegatti]

Dough's made; finished up at 78 F.  Handled just like the other dough.  I won't be making a pie until Saturday, most likely, and wouldn't be reporting until Sunday.

Thanks Peter; everyone enjoy the weekend.

[Tubbys SmokeHouse]

Man Peter you really know alot about this Pizza dough business, here i thought with 16 year old kids doing it every day in pizza parlors across the country, it was simple as it turns out it's actually rocket science .......jim

[Pete-zza]

Jim,

The hardest part is making and managing the dough up to the point where it can be safely handed over to the 16-year old kids. Even in the relatively rare instances where kids are allowed to make the dough in a pizza place, it is usually under adult supervision and/or following a set of fairly simple, almost foolproof, prescribed printed instructions. A pizza maker at Papa John's once told me that it takes about three weeks of steady work for the typical pizza assembler at PJ's to be able to turn dough balls into skins. At PJ's, the workers know next to nothing about how the dough balls are made because the dough balls are made in commissaries and delivered in refrigerated trucks to the PJ stores where all the pizza makers need to know is how to shape and stretch the dough balls out to the desired size and put the unbaked pizzas in one end of a conveyor oven and take them out of the other end and put them into boxes. Almost all of the chemistry, physics and math that applies to the dough balls is back at the commissaries. If you are interested, you can learn a lot about the logistics of the PJ dough by reading the first six posts (through Reply 5) at the PJ clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58195.html#msg58195.

What complicates matters on the forum is that we have members who make all styles of pizzas and kinds of doughs, all around the world, using different ingredients and equipment and processes and in different operating environments, from someone's home kitchen to a commercial pizza kitchen. And they have differerent cooking/baking skill sets and different levels of experience making pizzas, from amateurs to professionals. Diagnosing the problems they experience and offering solutions from behind a keyboard is not always easy or certain. Sometimes we get it right but sometimes we don't.

Peter