Pizza Dough, Newbie Question

[Tubbys SmokeHouse]

Hi all I'm Jim, I'm a Pit Master, if it walks, swims, flies or is grown in the ground i can grill it, BBQ it or smoke it but i cant make a good dough for the life of me, heres the recipe I'm using...........
4 cups flour
1-1/2 tsps active dry yeast
1 tsp salt
1 tsp olive oil (extra virgin)
1 tsp sugar
1-1/2 cups of lukewarm water

Mixed the water and sugar well, added the yeast slowly stirring it until it got sudsy (maybe five minutes)
Separately, mixed the flour, oil and salt
 cover with damp cloth and let sit till it rises (about 45 minutes to an hour)
Then spread a little flour on my peel and roll, I then brushed EVOO on the dough, coated it really well - right out to the very edges cook at 400 or grill at 400 on a pizza stone
my problem is it's NEVER soft and airy, always looks yellow then crust gets hard and doesn't brown but goes from yellow to burnt, doesn't seem to rise much at the edges, tried cooking faster at 800 degrees same result just burnt faster, I'm trying to get at least a decent crust, browned where you can push on the outer crust and get some give the crust i get is harder like a cookie even when it's not brown, can anyone offer a newbie some advice................Jim

[Pete-zza]

Jim,

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with your dough formulation but you are not likely to get a crust with much color and taste with only a 45 minute-one hour rise. However, you should have been getting a good rise because of all of the yeast and relatively high hydration (a lot of water). Did you preheat the stone and, if so, for how long? Usually, you want to preheat a pizza stone for about an hour at around 500 degrees F. Using a bake temperature of 400 degrees F is likely to extend the bake time (usually to the point where you get decent crust coloration) and result in a dryer, chewy, more cracker-like crust. Did you roll out the dough with a rolling pin? If so, that would account for the lack of a defined rim and possibly the flatness of the crust. Rolling a dough with a rolling pin forces the gas out of the dough. If such a deflated dough hits a 400 degree F stone, you are not going to get good oven spring.

You indicate that you have been hydrating your ADY for about 5 minutes. The recommended hydration period for ADY is about 10 minutes.

You didn't say but did you use a machine to knead the dough or did you use hand kneading?

Your recipe is what is often referred to as an "emergency" dough recipe because of the high amount of yeast and the very short fermentation time. If you reduce the amount of yeast and use a longer fermentation time, say, 6-8 hours, you should get a dough that will translate to a finished crust with better color, flavor and texture. It should also handle better and not need a rolling pin to roll it out. The amount of yeast to use will be largely dictated by the room temperature in your kitchen. The warmer the kitchen, the less yeast you will need, and vice versa. An alternative solution is to use a dough that is cold fermented in the refrigerator for about a day or more.

Good luck.

Peter

[Tubbys SmokeHouse]

Jim,

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with your dough formulation but you are not likely to get a crust with much color and taste with only a 45 minute-one hour rise. However, you should have been getting a good rise because of all of the yeast and relatively high hydration (a lot of water). Did you preheat the stone and, if so, for how long? Usually, you want to preheat a pizza stone for about an hour at around 500 degrees F. Using a bake temperature of 400 degrees F is likely to extend the bake time (usually to the point where you get decent crust coloration) and result in a dryer, chewy, more cracker-like crust. Did you roll out the dough with a rolling pin? If so, that would account for the lack of a defined rim and possibly the flatness of the crust. Rolling a dough with a rolling pin forces the gas out of the dough. If such a deflated dough hits a 400 degree F stone, you are not going to get good oven spring.

You indicate that you have been hydrating your ADY for about 5 minutes. The recommended hydration period for ADY is about 10 minutes.

You didn't say but did you use a machine to knead the dough or did you use hand kneading?

Your recipe is what is often referred to as an "emergency" dough recipe because of the high amount of yeast and the very short fermentation time. If you reduce the amount of yeast and use a longer fermentation time, say, 6-8 hours, you should get a dough that will translate to a finished crust with better color, flavor and texture. It should also handle better and not need a rolling pin to roll it out. The amount of yeast to use will be largely dictated by the room temperature in your kitchen. The warmer the kitchen, the less yeast you will need, and vice versa. An alternative solution is to use a dough that is cold fermented in the refrigerator for about a day or more.

Good luck.

Peter

thanks Peter,I knead it by hand(how long do you knead it for?) and I have tried the bread maker and it's recipe using bread flour it sucked also, I stretch it by hand (no rolling pin) and ive used a pin before, and I made 2 and put one in the frig overnight, to try bread sticks the next day, it was the same, its been around 95 degrees here (I live in the high desert of California)  the pizza stone on the grill was preheated my digi thermometer read 525 on the stone surface, when i use the house oven it's preheated to 400, and on a sheet tray with non stick foil, I tried no evoo on the edges thinking that was making it more yellow than white and that did not work. This is about my 20th pizza and it's never like a pizza parlors dough what gives dough that airy texture like the edges of the pizza are hollow in the center, mine seems more like a pie crust not hard, but full of dough like dense bread, I want to also try to make a garlic cheese twist like Round Tables, but thats out of the question if a cant even make a decent pizza dough, my kids say it's good, for them i put BBQ sauce, cheese, chicken, green onion and red onion and they mow it down (if i put those ingredients on the bottom of a sneaker and cooked it they would like it) but i want the results I'm used to when going out for pizza, I don't care for a Dominos cardboard style pizza or even a thin crust or pan pizza I just want to achieve a good airy pizza with brown semi crunchy edges. I'm going to try less yeast maybe what 3/4-1/2 tsp? same sugar? same salt? sit out on the counter with a damp cloth covering it longer? mix the yeast and water longer? and my oven wont go over 500F but my grill will hit 1000F i tried one at about 800F and it was the same just cooked twice as fast, should i pre cook the dough? then build the pie? a parlor just tosses it in on raw dough? when I make a self rising grocery store pizza out of the box I like it's crust better than mine and those cook at 400 for 20-25 minutes, anyhow Thank You for your response Peter I will keep plugging away at this..............Jim

[Pete-zza]

Jim,

I don't make grilled pizzas so I won't be able to help you with that facet of your pizza making. However, if you use your home oven, you should use a pizza stone that you have placed on the lowest or middle oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at your oven's highest temperature. Using a sheet tray with nonstick foil and an oven temperature of 400 degrees F won't give you adequate oven spring, and the pizza is likely to bake out too dry. It is also likely to be quite flat.

I don't know how you measure out your flour, that is, with a heavy or light hand, but I estimate that the recipe you posted makes about two pounds of dough. That amount of dough can be difficult to knead by hand, especially if it is a high-gluten flour or a bread flour. I don't usually hand knead two pounds of dough at a time, but I would guess that it should take about 15 minutes of hand kneading after combining all of the ingredients to properly develop the gluten. It might take even longer if you don't have good hand/arm strength or you are using a high-gluten flour. You didn't indicate what size pizzas you have been making, but I would divide the bulk dough into the desired number of dough balls before letting them ferment.

Your recipe won't replicate a pizzeria's pizza because pizza operators don't make one-hour doughs. They might do it in an emergency but not as a regular dough. In your case, if you want to stick with your present dough recipe, you could try using 1/2 teaspoon ADY. The rest of the ingredients can remain the same. The ADY should be rehydrated in a small amount of the formula water (about 1/4 cup) at about 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes. It can then be added to the rest of the formula water, which can be cool, especially if it is in the 90s where you are. After you have divided the bulk dough into the desired number of pieces and shaped them into round balls, you should brush them with a bit of oil (vegetable oil or olive oil), put them in separate containers, and cover the containers with their covers or plastic wrap secured with rubber bands to the containers. You should look for roughly a doubling of the dough balls before using. I can't tell you exactly when that will happen in your particular environment, but I estimate that it should take several hours. You might find that you will have to do some experimenting to find the best amount of yeast to use. Even then, it will change as your kitchen temperature changes over the course of the year, along with the outdoor temperatures.

If a cold fermented dough appeals to you, you might want to read the following thread, for a NY style pizza dough: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. I don't know if that style will appeal to you and your family, but it is a simple and reliable dough and there are many helpful tips on pizza making in that thread, including tips on hand kneading, at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786. In reading the abovereferenced thread, you might also identify things that you have been doing wrong.

Peter

[Tubbys SmokeHouse]

Thank You Peter you've been a load of help, and I will follow your advice to the letter, i will read those threads you posted also.............Thanks So much for your input.................Jim

[Tubbys SmokeHouse]

Thanks Peter I took your suggestions and made a pie last night and it was 100 times better than what I had been getting although i only let it rise 1 1/2 hours I kneaded it for 20 minutes and it was my best to date, so thanks again......................Jim