Author Topic: 24 hour dough rise using wet yeast (Read 8149 times)

thezaman · « **on:** August 19, 2009, 06:27:28 PM »

i need to try some different rising methods as i am not happy with the toughness of my caputo dough. carmine of settebello mentioned a 24 hour room rise. i want to know how little wet yeast needs to be used at 85 degrees, hi humidity to get the dough to work for that extended period.

widespreadpizza · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2009, 06:43:35 PM »

Peter, you got this one? -marc

Pete-zza · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2009, 06:47:56 PM »

Quote from: thezaman on August 19, 2009, 06:27:28 PM

i need to try some different rising methods as i am not happy with the toughness of my caputo dough. carmine of settebello mentioned a 24 hour room rise. i want to know how little wet yeast needs to be used at 85 degrees, hi humidity to get the dough to work for that extended period.

thezaman,

Can you tell us whether you are primarily interested in making a long, room-temperature fermented dough for your personal, occasional use or for a commercial operation?

Peter

thezaman · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2009, 07:01:59 PM »

this is for my back yard primavera oven.i make my dough at work and my kitchen is about 87 degrees and august humidity is high. i am looking at opening a commercial Neapolitan pizzeria within the next two years. so i am trying to learn as much as possible on a small scale and eventually transfer what i have learned . that is the beauty of bakers percentages.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #4 on:** August 19, 2009, 07:09:51 PM »

Quote from: widespreadpizza on August 19, 2009, 06:43:35 PM

Peter, you got this one? -marc

What Marc is referring to is the work that was done with long, room-temperature fermented doughs at elevated temperatures at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html. As part of that work, both Marc and I recently made such doughs without using any commercial yeast. Marc's experiment can be seen in a series of posts starting at Reply 63 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78700.html#msg78700. My experiment is discussed in a series of posts starting at Reply 78 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78743.html#msg78743.

There may be other ways of getting a 24-hour room-temperature dough at elevated temperatures, but to do so may entail using a natural starter or possibly the old dough method or some other prefermentation method. It might also be possible to use multiple stretch and fold or similar techniques to develop a good gluten structure while preventing the dough from overfermenting or overproofing. However, most of these methods are not classic Neapolitan methods, and they can be hard to implement in a commercial operation. It might also be possible to use salt at high levels to slow down the fermentation process, for example, around 3-3.5%, but it is not entirely clear how much the high salt levels will slow down the rate of fermentation. Some experimentation will be needed.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2009, 07:39:32 PM »

Quote from: thezaman on August 19, 2009, 07:01:59 PM

this is for my back yard primavera oven.i make my dough at work and my kitchen is about 87 degrees and august humidity is high. i am looking at opening a commercial Neapolitan pizzeria within the next two years. so i am trying to learn as much as possible on a small scale and eventually transfer what i have learned . that is the beauty of bakers percentages.

thezaman,

If you eventually plan to go commercial, I think I would concentrate on dough formulations that will work well in a commercial environment, and especially with the oven you plan to use. I'm not sure that a straight dough method using commercial yeast and a 24-hour room temperature fermentation is the best way to go. To make that method work, you will have to develop the skills of a Neapolitan pizzaiolo and be able to adapt your dough formulation to work at different room temperatures (and humidity conditions) over the course of the year. One alternative would be to build a room just for the dough and maintain the dough at a fixed temperature. You could use a natural starter culture in a long, room-temperature fermentation environment, but that method also has its challenges. From what I have read, Tony Mangieri used a natural starter and old dough combination in a long, room-temperature fermentation environment (I don't recall how many hours or the room temperature), and Pete Taylor is using a natural starter in a room-temperature fermentation environment. Mangieri's pizzas were considered by most to be Neapolitan but Peter's pizzas are not so designated. Brian Spangler of Apizza Schollls purportedly uses a combination of a poolish, multiple stretch and folds, and a long (24 hours) room-temperature fermentation, but his pizzas are not Neapolitan pizzas either. You can read my attempt at a clone Spangler dough at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg76431.html#msg76431.

I'd be very interested to know whether Carmine is using a straight dough method with the parameters you mentioned, that is, 24 hours at an uncontrolled room temperature. If he is, I'd like to know how he is doing it.

Peter

thezaman · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:31:40 PM »

peter,
what i an trying to get is a lighter less chewy crust using caputo flour . i have done the vpn training and the dough produced was no different than what i get at home. the softest most satifying to me was the pizza from il pizziaolo in Pittsburgh.i know that there has been talk about toughness of this style of dough. i want to know what factors can be changed to make the product softer less chewy. at work i use kasl flour, i cook at 550 degrees and i can adjust my dough toughness thru using more water and a longer rise at room temp.caputo doesn't work like that .i thought a dough that is never refrigerated may have a softer texture ,so the long ferment is my next attempt.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:53:56 PM »

thezaman,

Are you committed to the Neapolitan style, with just room temperature fermentation (i.e., no refrigeration)? Also, what kind of mixer are you using, and is it a different type of mixer than you used at your course?

Peter

thezaman · « **Reply #8 on:** August 19, 2009, 10:49:22 PM »

i make my batches 10 pounds by hand or a 45 second mix in my vertical cutter mixer[ like a cusinart]. i finish with a hand kneed, cover and a one hour rise. i keep the dough below 85 degrees .the mixer at vpn was a pietrberto vittoria 35 . i don't know if i am committed to non refrigerated method. i am experimenting with the method to see if the dough has a better texture. if there isn't a big difference refrigerated dough will be the easiest to control wast with.

othafa9 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:28:14 AM »

Their is no place else that you could keep the dough in your home that is cooler than 85? You would need a VERY VERY small amount of yeast. Also, to clarify, you bulk rise your dough for 1 hour, then ball it, then store as dough balls for the next 23 or so hours, correct? Maybe you could try bulk rising for a bit longer like 16 hours, then balling, and resting the balls until they are ready.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2009, 09:18:15 AM »

Quote from: thezaman on August 19, 2009, 10:49:22 PM

i make my batches 10 pounds by hand or a 45 second mix in my vertical cutter mixer[ like a cusinart]. i finish with a hand kneed, cover and a one hour rise. i keep the dough below 85 degrees .the mixer at vpn was a pietrberto vittoria 35 . i don't know if i am committed to non refrigerated method. i am experimenting with the method to see if the dough has a better texture. if there isn't a big difference refrigerated dough will be the easiest to control wast with.

thezaman,

Can you tell us how long you knead the Caputo dough when you use hand kneading?

The Pietroberto Vittoria 35 mixer is a fork mixer (http://www.macpan.com/en/prodotti.php?idC=65#348). As such, it will be much easier on the dough than your VCM. I have only read about VCMs in the context of pizza dough mixing, and while there are pizza operators who use and like them, they do not seem to be popular choices. One of the biggest complaints that I recall from my reading of posts at the PMQ Think Tank is that the VCMs produce a tougher dough and may require more water than with other mixers. Also, because of the short knead times, special measures have to be taken with respect to the use of the different forms of yeast. See, for example, http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=7683&sid=cde43233c37f79bc7b33c749f0afa660, http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=46251#46251 and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=1997#1997. I might add that I don't ever recall reading anyone using a VCM to make 00 doughs. So, there may be a special learning curve when using such a mixer to knead 00 dough.

Peter

thezaman · « **Reply #11 on:** August 20, 2009, 10:24:55 AM »

peter, i have used a vcm for 25 years ,there is a blunt dough blade that is used ,my hydration is 64 percent and i use ice to keep my finished dough under 84 degrees . i under mix as per a recommendation by tom lehmann ,my mix time is 90 seconds .i start with a broth of salt, malt,yeast some water i wisk it to blend then add oil and ice i bring my weight up to a pre determined level based on outside temperature and humidity.i used a hobart before and did not see a difference . water is the key to making the vcm work. each batch of dough has a finished weight of 42.5 pounds.
remember the caputo is only an experiment i have tried hand mix, vcm mix,and kitchen aid mix . no major difference in taste or structure. my lightest dough has been hand kneaded , a 4 hour bulk rise which tripled in volume .i knocked it down cut kneaded floured and covered for three hours and used it at that point.
i think that dough has to be close to the no return point to get it to leopard at high temp[ 900 degrees ]. if our dough is over proofed it bakes white and is unacceptable . that same dough would probably get some color in a wood oven.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #12 on:** August 20, 2009, 11:28:00 AM »

thezaman,

I know that you have a pizzeria and that you most likely were using the VCM to make the dough for your pizzas and have learned all of the ins and outs of that machine. I thought perhaps that some adjustments would be needed when using the 00 flour.

In the YouTube video you prepared on how to make lasagna, I noticed in the background what appears to be a dough press of some sort. If so, are you using that to form your 00 skins?

My best advice at this point is for you to make a test Caputo dough at room temperature using a very small amount of yeast (IDY should be easier to use than fresh yeast) and see what you get after, say, 20-24 hours of room temperature fermentation at around 85 degrees F. You might want to get a good reading of the room temperature and how long it takes the dough to rise to a particular threshhold, such as a doubling. That might allow you to establish a reference case or benchmark from which to make future adjustments in the amount of yeast. I don't make commercial quantities of dough--not even 10 pounds--so I can't tell you how a bulk dough of 10 pounds will behave at your elevated room temperature over a 20-24 hour period. The alternative would be do do the division up front and ferment the dough balls in dough boxes or trays or bags, or whatever you may now be using.

If you have a particular dough recipe in mind, maybe it can be modified to make a 10-pound (or any other weight) dough batch for test purposes.

Peter

Mo · « **Reply #13 on:** August 20, 2009, 01:08:36 PM »

Why the fuss about a comm. yeast leavened dough at room temp? If you're not using any starter, then why not just refrigerate for 2-3 days and accomplish, in a vastly easier to control setting, your goal of a nicely fermented, well risen, tender, airy dough? The 24 hr room temp rise with yeast seems like a headache with no real advantage, buy I could be wrong. I understand the case being made for a room temp bulk rise when using a starter but I just don't see what you gain by wrestling with a room temp rise when the refer method produces such a nice end product.

thezaman · « **Reply #14 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:00:49 PM »

mo , this thread started from the settebello video where he mentioned the 24 hour rise at room temp using yeast. my question started with my neo dough being to tough . i wanted to experiment with a 24 hour room rise to see if it would have the effect of tenderizing the dough, i am looking for help in the procedure.
peter i a follow vpn standards on stretching the dough by hand.

pizzaboyfan · « **Reply #15 on:** August 20, 2009, 03:50:29 PM »

Are you using the Blue 55 Caputo or the small red Bag ?

thezaman · « **Reply #16 on:** August 20, 2009, 04:50:14 PM »

the blue 55 pound . i have the red 55 pound also . my recent dough has been with the blue .

pizzaboyfan · « **Reply #17 on:** August 20, 2009, 05:23:05 PM »

Weird..my wife's comment on my last batch (with Blue) was that she thought it wasn't chewy enough..she was right.
I dissolve the yeast in 2/3 of the water..the salt in the rest..mix it for a minute or so until it comes together....let it sit covered with a damp cloth for 20 minutes..knead for 5 minutes...sit in fridge 18 plus hours...sit out for 2 hours... handle with care..and cook the suckers
66 % hydration 1/4 tsp Fleishman's per 100 grams flour...170 gram balls

Mo · « **Reply #18 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:31:09 PM »

Quote from: thezaman on August 20, 2009, 02:00:49 PM

mo , this thread started from the settebello video where he mentioned the 24 hour rise at room temp using yeast. my question started with my neo dough being to tough . i wanted to experiment with a 24 hour room rise to see if it would have the effect of tenderizing the dough, i am looking for help in the procedure.
peter i a follow vpn standards on stretching the dough by hand.

I'll watch the video. Don't get me wrong, I value experimentation. It just seems, to my limited experience, that a long term room temp rise will always be more unpredictable. You just don't have any room for maneuvering (assuming a commercial setting). I value tradition as well, but I'll bet that a lot of the traditional pizza makers were happy to embrace the advent of commercial yeast and mechanical refrigeration. I may be wrong about that. In my opinion, you can extend your workable dough window by 2-12 hours (refrigerated) from 20-40 minutes (room temp) while achieving identical results.

Mo · « **Reply #19 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:37:00 PM »

Quote from: thezaman on August 20, 2009, 02:00:49 PM

mo , this thread started from the settebello video where he mentioned the 24 hour rise at room temp using yeast.

zaman, is that vid posted here somewhere?