24 hour dough rise using wet yeast

[Mo]

And how did you measure out the 1 gram of fresh yeast?

That's what I was wondering. I have trouble even with digital scales at that small of quantity.

[thezaman]

 i used a scale that you get in a head shop for very accurate measurements. i cannot say that my temperature was exactly 72 degrees . i did this at work and we shut our dinning room down at 12 am so i placed the dough by a outside door , it was cool this week end. in  the morning before i turned on the air it was 75 degrees. i also didn't use the dough till 8 p.m. the dough had lots of life in it it just didn't become any more tender. i need to read marcos post and try it again.
  there are so many factors to look at from mixing, to handling ,to baking, it is always a challenge thats what makes this fun!!
 one more point to me the perfect pizza is dough, sauce, and cheese ,and the margarita the perfect form of it. the best pizza experience is sitting down with a uncut margarita and using a knife and fork,savoring the taste of each ingredient.

[pacoast]

FWIW, Ebay is a good source for inexpensive scales. You can buy scales that can weigh to 0.01 grams for about $12 including shipping. These are cheaply made imports to be sure. But I was surprised to find how well they work. I have calibration weights & these scales are plenty accurate for weighing all but the tiniest portions of yeast. The only real provisio with them is that they are bit sensitive to temperature. So if you plan to use them in a location >30°C, I would pass on them. Otherwise they are a good deal.

.

[thezaman]

 an update on the 24 hour rise .i don't think it is what i am looking for . the pizza from it was still to chewy and it wasn't worth the extra effort .  i tried a lower hydration dough of 58 % with a 10 minute mix 20 minute rest 5 minute mix and a two hour rise . cut into balls and cold risen for 24 hours. two hour rise at room temp then stretched ,  the biggest difference was i had good dough structure and was able to stretch it thin without tearing . the dough was not as tough either. my oven was at 850 on the floor so the pizza got away from me a little.

[Mo]

So I tried one of Peter's formulations for a 24-hour over-room-temp rise with IDY. I would say the conditions were 76-degrees and 35-45% humidity. The dough made it 24 hours no problem but I ran into issues with undermixing. It was terrible to stretch and very uneven. Really a pain to work with. Also tried baking in my father-in-laws Kimodo grill/oven and that was 50-50. I certainly learned quickly how to run the grill for pizzas, let's just say I was 1-for-2, so not a bad night in the majors. I don't know that I will try this mix again as I get much better results from a 48-72 hour cold rise. It was fun to try, though...


 

[thezaman]

i was in ny this week and stopped at keste. roberto uses a room temp rise he has climate controlled area and his bulk risen dough fills his proof boxes and looks over risen ,but he turns it into balls and uses it for up to 50 hours. the pizza was the best of the three neopoltan pizzas i had there . i went to the motorino at the old upn location which opened monday ,and pizza fresca. all three restaurants had delicious pizza ,but i thought keste had the best base. roberto didn't work his dough like the others he used a light hand to get it to about 10 inches topped it then slid it on a gi metal 13 inch peel, he then pulled it to a larger size 12 to 13 inches.

[Mo]

roberto uses a room temp rise he has climate controlled area and his bulk risen dough fills his proof boxes and looks over risen ,but he turns it into balls and uses it for up to 50 hours.

zaman, do you know what temp/hum/time he was using for this area? is it a 12-24 hour rise? does he use a starter? are the proof boxes different from the climate controlled area?

[thezaman]

 the dough is 24 hour rise, temp 55 to 60 deg. . he had large deep food stage boxes stacked 4 high. the bottom two filled 1/8 th from the bottom, the top two were risen to the top the only thing stopping over flow were the lids. he mentioned the bottom two would get to that point by the next day. next to this dough were 8 dough boxes with balled dough for the evening . it was 9:30 so some was to be used the next day. the owner of spacca napoli in chicago was there visiting, as roberto was stretching dough he asked the age and roberto said it was 50 hours old.i think theses guys really follow the old traditions as much as possible. it was a very communal restaurant,  a fun and exciting dinning experience.

[widespreadpizza]

zaman, are you saying he was going to let the dough rise to 8 times its original size?  -marc

[thezaman]

yes, when i did my 24 hour dough it blew after the 18 hour mark but once you fold it it gets its strength back . now his yeast was 11 grams to 55 pounds of flour and the rise was very slow.  i think peter got the same results on his 24 hour test . also ,marco explained his room temp method the same. when jonathan from spacca napoli asked roberto about the overproofed dough ,he smiled and pointed to a margarita comming out of the oven. please do not hold me to the measurements of space the dough took up. just that at some point the dough lost it form, but once it was re kneaded it was good to go.

[Mo]

now his yeast was 11 grams to 55 pounds of flour and the rise was very slow.  i think peter got the same results on his 24 hour test . also ,marco explained his room temp method the same.

i take it then these guys are not using natural starter?

[thezaman]

i don't know about motorino or pizza fresca, but keste uses wet yeast . pizza fresca is  vpn certified.

[widespreadpizza]

zaman,  thanks for the info,  why do I feel like I have never heard of such a thing.  Where does marco ever explain letting the dough more than double before division.  I am baffled and curious at the same time. -marc

[Barry]

zaman,  thanks for the info,  why do I feel like I have never heard of such a thing.  Where does marco ever explain letting the dough more than double before division.  I am baffled and curious at the same time. -marc

I am also baffled - I have found that "blown dough" has either..
1. No strength at all, and easily tears, or
2. Sometimes it is impossible to stretch if it has been punched and folded a few times.

Barry

[s00da]

So I tried one of Peter's formulations for a 24-hour over-room-temp rise with IDY. I would say the conditions were 76-degrees and 35-45% humidity. The dough made it 24 hours no problem but I ran into issues with undermixing. It was terrible to stretch and very uneven. Really a pain to work with. Also tried baking in my father-in-laws Kimodo grill/oven and that was 50-50. I certainly learned quickly how to run the grill for pizzas, let's just say I was 1-for-2, so not a bad night in the majors. I don't know that I will try this mix again as I get much better results from a 48-72 hour cold rise. It was fun to try, though...


 

Mo, how do you differenciate the cause between undermixing and under-fermenting? If you're using the same mixing procedure for the 24 hour room temp. and the 48-72 hour cold, then your problem is more likely fermentation rather than mixing.

Saad

[s00da]

I am also baffled - I have found that "blown dough" has either..
1. No strength at all, and easily tears, or
2. Sometimes it is impossible to stretch if it has been punched and folded a few times.

Barry

I wouldn't really go by dough expansion as a measure of overfermentation. I use a much weaker AP flour and my dough goes to 4x the original size using Ischia and it has an amazing texture when stretching.

I believe from my humble experience that the best measure for dough fermentation is the smell. I don't shape and proof my dough until it has a slight-to-moderate acidic/alcoholic smell and I wouldn't let go to the point where the smell is too strong.

Saad

[Mo]

Mo, how do you differenciate the cause between undermixing and under-fermenting? If you're using the same mixing procedure for the 24 hour room temp. and the 48-72 hour cold, then your problem is more likely fermentation rather than mixing.

Saad

I guess I assumed it was undermixed because of the seeming lack of good gluten development. I tend to think of this as a mix time issue (going back to my bread days, albeit a long time ago). When I got the dough to go 24 hours without going nuts and needing any punching, I figured the rise time was ok. But I understand your point/question, and it seems to be a valid one. Perhaps there is more of a connection between gluten development/extensibility and fermentation than I realized?? Please advise, over...

[s00da]

I guess I assumed it was undermixed because of the seeming lack of good gluten development. I tend to think of this as a mix time issue (going back to my bread days, albeit a long time ago). When I got the dough to go 24 hours without going nuts and needing any punching, I figured the rise time was ok. But I understand your point/question, and it seems to be a valid one. Perhaps there is more of a connection between gluten development/extensibility and fermentation than I realized?? Please advise, over...

This issue has been discussed recently on this thread. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.0.html It's long but there is a lot of good information if you like to read 

Both I and and Pete conducted experiments by making underkneaded and overkneaded doughs to compare. I think Pete went as low as 3.5 minutes and I've done 5 minutes only using KA mixers. Nonetheless, we didn't find much trouble stretching the dough. In general, gluten can either be developed mechanically (mixer) or organically (fermentation). Mechanical development is faster but lowers the quality of the finished product where as organic development (fermentation) is slower but produces a much better pizza, I'm sure you know this from bread making. The dough you had a problem with could probably been extensible if you mixed it more or if you let it ferment more. It really depends on how much time and effort you are willing to put into it.

My personal preference is 24 hours room temp doughs because I find it convenient to my schedule to make a dough and use it the next day at the same exact time. Also, I noticed that at the 24th hour, my doughs become sticky which could be an evident of the protease enzyme.

Saad

[Pete-zza]

zaman,  thanks for the info,  why do I feel like I have never heard of such a thing.  Where does marco ever explain letting the dough more than double before division.  I am baffled and curious at the same time. -marc

Marc,

I believe you are correct. I don't ever recall Marco advocating that one allow the dough to double or triple. In fact, my recollection is that he said that the dough wouldn't rise much during the bulk fermentation and that the subsequent rise after dividing the bulk dough would not lead to a doubling or anything like that. However, it is important to keep in mind that while Marco acknowledged the use of commercial yeast (e.g., 2.5 grams of fresh yeast for 1650 grams of flour in one of his early posted dough recipes), he personally worked almost exclusively with natural starters (Crisceto). In that context, it would not have been unusual to have a 20+ hour room temperature fermentation. In fact, at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12548/topicseen.html#msg12548, he pointed out that that is what Da Michele and Antica Costa, both of whom used Crisceto, did in their pizzerias.

Based on Larry's post saying that Roberto uses 11 grams of fresh yeast for 55 pounds of flour, I calculate the baker's percent for the fresh yeast to be 11/(55 x 16 x 28.35) = 0.04409%. Since I don't use fresh yeast and think in terms of IDY, 0.04409% fresh yeast would convert to about 0.01469% IDY. That is close to what I used in some of the experiments at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html (leaving out those doughs that you and I made without any commercial yeast), but I don't know that 0.04409% fresh yeast (or 0.01469% IDY) is enough to cause a dough to double or triple or quadruple after 24 hours at a temperature of 55-60 degrees F. However, it does occur to me that it might be possible to get the dough to "blow" if the dough boxes are downstacked without prior cross-stacking, even at room temperature. This is speculation on my part since I don't work with commercial batches of dough in dough boxes to know whether what I am saying has credence.

One of the observations I came away with when I played around with 20+ hour room temperature fermentations is that the dough should benefit from occasional punchdowns or stretch and folds, even if it means having to let the dough rest for a while to recover. Otherwise, it can be difficult to work with the dough without experiencing excessive extensibility or severely compromised gluten strength (for example, due to the protease enzymes) or tearing. I think that is why Barry Spangler, at least at one point, used a series of three stretch and folds for his 24-hour room temperature fermented dough. Of course, as Barry noted, one can reach the point of no return where no amount of re-kneading or otherwise re-working the dough will help. No doubt, Roberto has found the right combination for his purposes. Yet, it seems to me that something is missing in this story.

Peter

[Mo]

This issue has been discussed recently on this thread. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.0.html It's long but there is a lot of good information if you like to read 

Both I and and Pete conducted experiments by making underkneaded and overkneaded doughs to compare. I think Pete went as low as 3.5 minutes and I've done 5 minutes only using KA mixers. Nonetheless, we didn't find much trouble stretching the dough. In general, gluten can either be developed mechanically (mixer) or organically (fermentation). Mechanical development is faster but lowers the quality of the finished product where as organic development (fermentation) is slower but produces a much better pizza, I'm sure you know this from bread making. The dough you had a problem with could probably been extensible if you mixed it more or if you let it ferment more. It really depends on how much time and effort you are willing to put into it.

My personal preference is 24 hours room temp doughs because I find it convenient to my schedule to make a dough and use it the next day at the same exact time. Also, I noticed that at the 24th hour, my doughs become sticky which could be an evident of the protease enzyme.

Saad

Saad, I will definitely read through that info you linked. My first impression is this, however: Considering I did achieve a 24-hour room temp fermentation, why didn't the dough perform as well as (or even close to) a 48-72 hour cold fermentation? The amount of leavening seemed correct (judging by volume of rise) yet the structure of the dough was all wrong. This was why I assumed mix time was off. My intuition told me that the structural development that occurs in a 2-3 day fermentation was not happening in a 24-hour fermentation and could be remedied, perhaps, by increasing mix time to assist the dough's development. Granted this was a first attempt and it is likely that some other variable(s) are contributing to the results. Good reason to try again.