24 hour dough rise using wet yeast

[Pete-zza]

Mo,

All of the experiments I conducted to make doughs that fermented for around 20+ hours were done during the warm season, with a room temperature of around 80-83 degrees F. I do not think that is natural. If anything, I think it is really pushing the envelope at the temperatures I used and perhaps not the nicest thing to do to yeast, bacteria and enzymes. In fact, Marco (pizzanapoletana) once speculated that a dough fermented at a room temperature of 20 degrees C, or 68 degrees F, was equivalent to or maybe even greater than 6 days in the refrigerator at 2-4 degrees C (35.6-39.2 degrees F). See, for example, Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1261.msg11336/topicseen.html#msg11336.

As noted previously in this thread, Marco believes the optimum room temperature for fermentation purposes to be 18-20 degrees C, or 64.4-68 degrees F. It occurs to me that your room temperature of 76 degrees F may also have been too high, just like mine, and maybe your dough was equivalent to more than 6 days of cold fermentation. When cool weather arrives in the Dallas area where I live, I hope to run a few more experiments in a more normal range of fermentation temperatures to compare the results I get with the doughs fermented at much higher room temperatures. I am pretty certain that I will have to increase the amount of yeast above the levels used for the "summertime" doughs.

Peter

[thezaman]

 to the above group,
  i am just letting you know how keste made their dough. in my reply 34 i did a 24 hour dough and my risen dough took on the same look as Roberto's. my finished product was not what i was looking for, but now seeing that it was close to Roberto's results,i am thinking that my tougher dough is from cooking or stretching . i know that he handled his dough gently , it was cooked at 900 degrees or higher and it was a oven built to cook neo pizza .
  when i get time i will put up pics of the pizza from the 4 pizzerias i ate at in ny. all of them were high energy joints ,that heightened the dinning experience.
 

[Pete-zza]

Larry,

For the dough you described in Reply 33 you said you used one gram of fresh yeast for 1000 grams of flour. That comes to 0.10% fresh yeast. That is about 2 1/4 times what Roberto seems to be using. Also, you fermented your dough at around 72 degrees F, or 12-17 degrees F higher than Roberto's dough. Those two differences can account for the results you described in Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9112.msg79008.html#msg79008 (a trebling of the dough). I am still puzzled with Roberto's results.

Peter

[s00da]

Saad, I will definitely read through that info you linked. My first impression is this, however: Considering I did achieve a 24-hour room temp fermentation, why didn't the dough perform as well as (or even close to) a 48-72 hour cold fermentation? The amount of leavening seemed correct (judging by volume of rise) yet the structure of the dough was all wrong. This was why I assumed mix time was off. My intuition told me that the structural development that occurs in a 2-3 day fermentation was not happening in a 24-hour fermentation and could be remedied, perhaps, by increasing mix time to assist the dough's development. Granted this was a first attempt and it is likely that some other variable(s) are contributing to the results. Good reason to try again.

Mo, you can see here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9053.0.html that I modified Pete's 24 hour room temp recipe for my own home setting. I fermented the dough at a room temp of 75 F which is similar to yours but of course I had to increase the amount of yeast since Pete's recipe is suited for 80-83 F. In terms of mixing, the dough was kneaded for 20 minutes and it produced the best crust I've had so far. Currently I intend to decrease the kneading time and see how that would differ.

As for fermentation expansion; my dough goes beyond double after 19 hours where I then deflate, fold and ball again. This gives the gluten more strength, adds irregular structure to the crumb and allow further fermentation and flavor to develop.

Saad

[thezaman]

if you go back to the discussion, one of the problems doing the small batches that we do makes it harder to get the proper measurements . i know that the yeast was to high,but as a option to the many ways that the true Neapolitan pizza is made this is one . i tried three different places u ny as well as one in Pittsburgh and all were good . all tasted similar to what i do at home , and similar to what a lot of the members do. we make small batches and try a lot of different things which is what this hobby is about. my currant batch of dough is sitting in the basement under my ac vent at 62 deg . i am going to cut it and give the balls a 2 hour room temp rise to loosen the gluten . and cook later this evening. 900 degrees and see if i can come close to any of the pies i had  in ny.

[scott r]

There is misinformation on this thread!   I will let Roberto chime in if he wants to clarify.

[thezaman]

 i am not trying to tell any one how roberto makes his dough .i have no idea of his formula nor how he holds it . the only thing that got out of visually seeing his dough was that his bulk proof look like the bulk proof i got. the rest is speculation . all i am tying to do is play with different techniques trying to get a crust close to the flavor and texture of his . out of the three pizzas i was able to try his product stood out.
  as far as yeast, one gram is not 10 percent of a 1000 grams of flour 100 grams would cover percentage.

[thezaman]

 on monday i did an extended room rise dough .1000 grams 00 flour, 30 grams salt, 1 gram wet yeast, 580 grams cold water. mixed for 10 minutes temp 68 deg . rose in my basement temp 64 deg. planned 24 hours ,but didn't get to it for 39 hours (pic 1) , dough temp. 67 deg. balled the dough at 8 am wed. (pic 2 ).i got the oven to temp and made 7 pizzas at 8pm wed. , which is 50 hour old dough. pic 3 is the dough balls after all day rise. pics 4 and 5 are pizzas that came out almost round. it takes a lot of skill to work with dough made with extended room temp rise, a lot more than i have at this stage of the game. last image should be first, sorry .

[Mo]

Hey those pies look pretty good. How was the dough hard to work with? Too extensible or not enough? I wouldn't worry about perfectly round pies. The variations un shape are what we (or at least I) in the food biz like to call "natural variety". 

[UnConundrum]

I agree, they look great!  How did they taste?

[andreguidon]

how hard was it to work ? and why ?

[thezaman]

the dough was very soft and i had a hard time separating it . when i dropped it in the flour it wasn't round and when flattened it had a lot of air bubbles which i worked out with my fingers . the dough was soft so i could not pick it up and stretch it with my knuckles so i did what i thought roberto was doing. i stretched to about 10 inches put my items on it and shot a gi metal 13inch round peel under it .i then pulled it to size on the peel and baked it at a floor temp of 950 deg. roberto was gentle with the dough and got it to behave, a master pizza maker !
 the pizzas could have been a little thicker i cut my balls at 220 grams but stretched it to 12 inches and i should of gone 11 inches. i also though the dough was a little tough. i need to use more salt in my sauce and the water i cook my curd in,or add sea salt as a step as they do at motorino.
  i need to get some of the members thoughts on canned tomato prep. i am sure there are allot of different methods.