Author Topic: Help with crust please  (Read 1536 times)

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Offline dlmob

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Help with crust please
« on: July 25, 2009, 08:18:26 PM »
I've been scouring the internet for the perfect bubbly chewy crust, and I have not been able to find one and duplicate it even if I did find one. My crust is too bread like without the soft new york / Neapolitan chew. I cook it on a stone in a 550 degree oven . Here is a picture of one I made tonight.


Offline pacoast

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2009, 04:46:00 AM »
Looks like I'm the first to welcome you to the forum. So welcome.

It can be frustrating when it doesn't go quite the way you want. But light, airy & chewy NY crust is within reach. I'd love to tell you something like increase your hydration 5% and you'll get a perfect crust. But it doesn't work that way. First you have to tell us how you're making your current dough. Then we'll have some basis on which to try doling out useful advice. Making pizza is 75% technique, so not just the recipe, but also a description of how you are going about making the dough & the pizza.

Also have a look around; there's a lot of useful advice in existing threads too. Lots of regulars have detailed what they ended up doing to perfect their crusts.

Cheers

.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 04:48:14 AM by pacoast »

Offline dlmob

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2009, 11:03:01 AM »
Here is the recipe I use I usually make it in the morning to eat the pizza that night.
2 teaspoons honey
4 cups of flour or more
1 teaspoon salt
1/4 cup olive oil
1 and 1/2 cups of warm water
2 Packages of yeast
I put the honey and yeast in the warm water let sit for about five minutes then I add it to the dough and mix it all around by hand until till the dough pulls away from the side of the bowl. I then need it for about 10-15 minutes and let it rise for about an hour punch it down once then I'll put it in the fridge for a few hours and take it out about an hour prior to me making the crust. this way the dough warms up to room temp. I do most of the crust shaping in the air then stretch it a little more and add the toppings and put it in the 550degree oven, for about 12-14 min. Basically until the pizza looks done. Like I said in my first post it just doesn't get the nice airy/chewy crust.

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2009, 12:16:58 PM »
Also welcome dlmob
One approach you could take would be to browse thru the NY Style threads and see what formula's and methods look to produce the type of pie you are after using your equipment and temps.  That can be a daunting task, I know.  So many folks start with the Tom Lehmann NY recipe http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php, plus there are many posts and threads on this formula as well.
Since you are hand kneading, you might want to check this thread from NYpizzastriver which chronicles the beginning of his journey http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8146.0.html.  Striver is putting together some fantastic looking hand kneaded pies so his other posts may be helpful too.
Some of the most popular formula's include these, but of course there are many more.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.0.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html
And here is a NY style extravaganza.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.0.html

Still a lot of reading and you may not be familiar with all the techniques but at least might give you some ideas and info.
Others more experienced with doughs containing sweeteners and oil may chime in with some pointers, which alas I cannot having never used these ingredients myself.
But as someone who had never made a successful dough when I joined but can now, I believe you have come to the right place and are way ahead of where I started. 
Good luck and post away, great pizza lies ahead...
Hog


 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2009, 12:32:25 PM »
dlmob,

Can you tell me what type and brand of flour you are using, how you measure it out (e.g., "scoop", "scoop and level", "stir, lift, fill and level", etc.), the type of yeast you are using (instant dry yeast or active dry yeast), and the number and size of the pizzas you have been making with the recipe you posted? Also, is it safe to say that you are after a NY style pizza and, if so, what size are you after and do you prefer a thin crust or a super-thin crust? Most NY style doughs contain little or no oil. I estimate that one-quarter cup of oil (12 teaspoons) for 4+ cups of flour in your recipe comes to 10-11%. Oil at that level will tenderize the finished crust (by restraining the evaporation of water in the dough) and reduce the degree of openess and airiness of the crumb of the finished crust. The honey (about 2.5-2.7%) will also contribute to the tenderness of the finished crust because it is highly hygroscopic in nature (it attracts water), more so than ordinary sugar. The NY style typically contains no sugar, in any form, although it is sometimes used for doughs that are to be cold fermented in the refrigerator for more than a couple of days.

Your yeast, whatever kind it is, is also off the charts--that is, excessively high, even for a dough that is to be used the same day. I estimate that your yeast usage (0.5 ounces) is about 2.5-2.8% (of the weight of the flour). A more typical value for a dough that is to be made and used the same day, as in your case, would be around 0.70% (IDY) and maybe even less.

It is possible to modify your recipe to improve its performance, but it may take too much work and experimentation to get the type of crust you are seeking. I would rather wait to hear what kind of pizza you are after and make suggestions that might spare you a lot of unnecessary experimentation. You should also state whether you are interested only in a same-day dough or one that might be refrigerated for a day or more.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 01:13:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline dlmob

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2009, 01:24:14 PM »
I started using gold medal for bread flour because it was more of a high gluten flour then the regular gold medal flour that I was using. To answer you question on the type of pizza I'm looking for I'd say the new York style with a bubbly crust. I make two pizzas out of the one recipe, and when it comes to me measuring flour, I scoop it out with a spoon put it in the measuring cup then level it off with a straight endge that way I don't pack the flour into the cup.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2009, 01:27:13 PM »
dlmob,

Thanks for the information. Can you answer the rest of the questions I asked?

Peter

Offline dlmob

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2009, 02:07:54 PM »
Sorry about that the type of yeast I use is fleishmanns active dry yeast. I keep it in the freezer to keep it fresh I don't know ifthis could have something to do with it.
Thanks for the help

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2009, 04:41:28 PM »
dlmob,

You still haven't told us what size (diameter) pizzas you have been making, what size pizzas you would now like to make, whether you like a thin or super-thin crust, and what dough life you are after? The answers to those questions are needed in order to provide direction.

Also, do you have a digital scale that you can use?

Peter

Offline dlmob

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2009, 05:26:19 PM »
The picture above shows the size that I've been making. Diameter wise I'd say your standard 12 inch. As far as dough life I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean how long I'd like to keep the dough for I'd say 1-3 days unless I freeze it.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2009, 07:16:03 PM »
dlmob,

Based on what you have said, I estimate that your dough recipe makes about 32 ounces of dough, or about 16 ounces per pizza. If you made 12" pizzas, the crust would have a medium thickness--like that of a Papa John's pizza. A NY style crust is much thinner.

From what you have said in terms of desired dough life, it looks like your best bet is to make a 1-2 day cold fermented dough. My best advice is to review the links that PizzaHog gave you to see if you can find a recipe that meets your needs. In some cases, you may need to have a scale to practice the recipes so if you do not have a scale you may have to convert the recipes to volume measurements. You can use the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to do the conversions. If you use that calculator, you should use the Harvest King flour from the pulldown menu (the Harvest King flour is the same as the Gold Medal Better for Bread flour). You should also use the Textbook Measurement Method. If you find a recipe that you would like to try but needs some other modification, for example, pizza size or crust thickness or a change to use a different yeast type (e.g., ADY instead of IDY), let me know and I will see if there is anything I can do.

You might also take a look at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. That thread is devoted almost exclusively to the Lehmann NY style dough recipe. A sample recipe for a 12" pizza is given in Reply 8 in that thread. I described the use of a stand mixer to make the dough but if you do not have a stand mixer and plan to make the dough by hand, I have set forth some tips on hand kneading at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786. Whatever method you use to make the dough, if you will be using hand kneading I suggest that you use cold water right out of the refrigerator for the part of the water that is not used to rehydrate the ADY, if that is the type of yeast you plan to use. To rehydrate the ADY, you should use a small amount of the formula water (about 1/4-cup) at a temperature of around 105 degrees F. You should let the ADY rehydrate for about 10 minutes at that temperature. After the ADY has been rehydrated, you can add it to the rest of the water (cold) or to the ingredients in your bowl.

Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 09:22:28 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline dlmob

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Re: Help with crust please
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 11:04:55 PM »
Thanks for them help. I found today that the best way to get a great pizza besides the dough recipe you set me up with, is putting my rectangular stone on my four burner gas grill and putting that sucker on high and letting it heat for about 15-20 min. The grill temp dial pegs out at about 675-700. I'd say it gets to at least 700+  and in five minutes I had made my best pizza yet with the slight crisp on the outside and the chewiness on the inside and bubble all over the edges.MMMMM MMMMMM. And after talking to a local pizza shop owner he said the oven is part of the secret and he told me to put the stone in the gas grill and crank it; and boy he was right!!! 550deg just doesn't seem to cut it compared to this method. Also it get more of that wood fired brick over texture to it too.