Author Topic: Chewey Pizza Dough  (Read 9213 times)

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Offline Franky99205

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Chewey Pizza Dough
« on: September 04, 2009, 04:58:29 PM »
I make pizzas and it seems no matther what my dough is chewey.
What am I doing wrong?


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2009, 05:33:41 PM »
I make pizzas and it seems no matther what my dough is chewey.
What am I doing wrong?

There can be many reasons. But the only way to assess the problem is to see your dough recipe (including the flour type and brand) and for you to tell us exactly how you make and manage the dough and how you shape the skins and bake the pizzas. Please also indicate the size of pizzas you have been making. In general, the more detail, the better.

Peter

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2009, 07:32:07 PM »
Thank you,

I use
50 Lbs. General Mills high gluten flour,
1/8 cup yeast
12 Liter water
3 cup oil

Offline UnConundrum

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2009, 07:37:41 PM »
No Salt?

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2009, 07:43:16 PM »
No Salt?

Oh I forgot,

1 cup salt
1 cup sugar.
If anybody has a better mixture, please don't hesitate

Thank you in advance

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2009, 07:46:12 PM »
And what kind of yeast?

The recipe only tells part of the story. How you make and manage the dough and make the pizzas is also needed.

Peter

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2009, 08:07:56 PM »
Fleishman' yeast.
We mix everything at ones at the beginning. mix for 15 minutes
weigh ball
Medium 12" 15 oz
large      16" 21 oz
let them sit in the walk in and use as needed.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2009, 08:26:13 PM »
Fleishman' yeast.

Is that instant dry yeast (IDY)?

Peter

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2009, 08:27:29 PM »
yes


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2009, 08:45:59 PM »
Something doesn't seem to compute. If you are using 1/8 cup of IDY, that is 6 teaspoons, or 0.6375 ounces by weight. Fifty pounds of flour is 800 ounces (50 x 16 = 800). So, from a baker's percent standpoint, your usage of IDY is 0.6375/800 = 0.0007968, or 0.07968%. I don't know what kind of pizza you are making but 0.07968% IDY isn't going to support much fermentation, and certainly not in a cooler. Am I missing something here?

Are you making two different types of pizzas? If you are using 15 ounces of dough to make a 12" pizza, I calculate a thickness factor of 15/(3.14159 x 6 x 6 ) = 0.1326292. If you are using 21 ounces of dough to make a 16" pizza, I calculate a thickness factor of 21/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.1044455. That's a big difference. Either way, are you having problems with both crust thicknesses?

Peter

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2009, 09:07:38 PM »
Thank you

I used to use 3/4 cup of yeast, the problem was the dough would proof rapidly and with the shelf life of 1 day in the cooler. To solve this I used less yeast ann now the dough is in the cooler for 2 days.
And yes I make 12" inch dough with 15 oz and 14" inch dough with 21 oz.
Again my problem was that the dough would rise even in the walk-in would touch the top tray. We hand roll the dough and hand stretch the dough.
Any suggestion would be appreciated as to how much yeast water, oil, etc. 

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2009, 09:10:03 PM »
Could u elaborate on the thickness above. The whole calculation and all.
I use conveyer ovens if that matters.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2009, 09:45:29 PM »
Franky,

Sometimes when someone has to cut back the amount of yeast because the dough was blowing it is because the dough boxes weren't cross-stacked. But, when the yeast is cut back that much, there isn't enough yeast to support good fermentation and to get a good rise (oven spring) in the dough. So, the finished crust can end up too thick and chewy. A similar result can occur if the finished dough temperature is too high and causing the dough to ferment too much and too quickly. A natural tendency is to cut back on the amount of yeast to counteract the high finished dough temperature. Do you cross-stack your dough boxes and do you measure your finished dough temperature?

I suggest that you take a look at the list of dough preparation and management steps as set forth at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554.html#msg64554. You didn't indicate what type/style of pizza you are making but I believe the steps listed in the referenced post might apply to your situation.

At the moment, your dough recipe looks like the following, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Flour (100%):
Water (52.9101%):
IDY (0.07968%):
Salt (1.18125%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.88359%):
Sugar (0.84375%):
Total (157.89837%):
22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
12000.01 g  |  423.28 oz | 26.46 lbs
18.07 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
267.91 g | 9.45 oz | 0.59 lbs | 16 tbsp | 1 cups
654 g | 23.07 oz | 1.44 lbs | 48 tbsp | 3 cups
191.36 g | 6.75 oz | 0.42 lbs | 16 tbsp | 1 cups
35811.35 g | 1263.19 oz | 78.95 lbs | TF = N/A

The item that really looks out of whack is the IDY. The hydration, at 52.9%, might also be on the low side. If you can tell me what kind of pizza you are trying to make and when you make the dough and how long after that you use the dough, I might be able to offer up a few suggestions.

Peter

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2009, 10:00:36 PM »
Could u elaborate on the thickness above. The whole calculation and all.

Franky,

For a discussion on thickness factors (also sometimes called loading factors), see this article: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2004november_december/lehmann.php.

Ideally, unless you are trying to make two different types of pizzas with two different crust thicknesses, you want to use the same thickness factor for both pizzas.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20110404180542/http://pmq.com/mag/2004november_december/lehmann.php
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:06:25 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2009, 03:48:52 PM »
Thank you Pete-zza for your time and patience
I have read the aricles and your post. I am lost. Math was never a favorite subject for me. Can you translate all that for me in a very simple english? Please.
So far I understand these, but with what I have posted as far as the ingridient and the fact I like for my dough to have a 2-3 days storage life in the cooler, how much yeast do I have to use?

Thank you in advance

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2009, 04:42:36 PM »
Franky,

For now, let's not worry about the math. We can address that later. However, it would help to know whether you are after a reasonably thin crust or a thicker crust. For example, the crust for your 12" pizza is like a Papa John's crust thickness but not quite as thick. The crust for your 16" pizza is more like a NY style crust thickness but a bit thicker.

But what is more important for now is for me to have answers to the questions I posed to you in Reply 12. If you are not cross-stacking and you are not measuring water temperatures and finished dough temperatures, there is insufficient basis to try to fix your recipe if such is needed. I also need to know what type or style of pizza you are making. Among other things, that will tell me whether the procedures in Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554.html#msg64554 are the correct ones for you to use with your dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 04:52:29 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2009, 05:14:10 PM »
Pete-zza,

Wow there is a whole lot I need to learn about making dough. See I used to be a franchisee with big chain of around 5000 stores. I got everything from the franchisor. Their dough was done to a science. could keep it in the fridg for 8 days.
Now I am on my own and I love that alot. Although operationally I am very good, but there are things like how to make a perfect dough is what I need to learn.
Back to your comment, I am doing the papa John's and Dominos dough as far as thickness. My demographic do not like NY thin crust.
I read the article and I need to take the temprature. I always guessed it. luke warm water that was it. as far as making dough balls, mixing time and cross staking, I was already doing it. I am going to be working on the dough making process. By the way on another post on this site I read there is a difference between type of yeast. Which one should I use, powder(granulated) or what would you suggest?

Thank you for this site and your comments. This site is great.

 


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2009, 05:20:23 PM »
Franky, 

Which chain did you work for, and was the dough delivered fresh or frozen?

Peter
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 05:29:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2009, 05:25:54 PM »
I was a franchisee with Domino's. We got our dough fresh but very cold and very small and hard. 1-2 inches in diameter for a 12" when we got them. 

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2009, 05:34:57 PM »
Franky,

Papa John's does it the same way. However, I am puzzled by how a dough ball 1-2" in diameter (about the size of a walnut or golf ball) can make a 12" pizza.

By the way, where did you get your recipe? And are you interested in a Domino's style pizza for your place? Also, are you using All Trumps high-gluten flour?

And where are you physically located and making your pizzas? Are you hand tossing the skins?

As far as the yeast is concerned, you can use any of the three most common forms--fresh, IDY or active dry yeast (ADY). However, for your purposes, I would go with the IDY.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 05:48:10 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2009, 07:10:25 PM »
1-2 inches in diameter is when we received the dough ball. After 3-4 days they would proof in the walk-in to a normal size. At that point we could use them.
I am using General Mills high gluten flour. I am in Fresno, Ca. I hand stretch the dough

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2009, 07:20:28 PM »
Franky,

Am I correct in the assumption that you are trying to make an American style pizza, along the lines of a Domino's pizza (hand tossed crust) or a Papa John's pizza (original crust)? And where did you get your current dough recipe? I am trying to understand the logic of using 52.9% hydration for the dough.

I specifically asked you about the All Trumps flour because General Mills makes more than one high-gluten flour, as you will see from http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=Espring. Can you run down the list and tell me which specific flour you are using? That may have some bearing on the best hydration of the dough.

Can you narrow for me the window of usability of the dough you are after, e.g., a dough that can be used from x hours to y hours (e.g., from 24-72 hours)?

Peter
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 08:13:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2009, 12:16:28 AM »
The list on General mills does not have the one I am using.
I am using
58353 Supreme course it has gold medal on it too. And far as the receipe, I got it from a friend. I was not into hydrations and all that.
I am after as you call it a dough that can be like Dominos with the shelf life of at least 2-3 days in the cooler and 3-4 hors at room temprature.
Am I using too much water?
All this very eye opening for me.

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2009, 10:05:06 AM »
Franky,

I found the Supreme 58353 flour under the Western Flours/Bread section of the General Mills website, at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=WBread. I was able to confirm that the flour is a high-gluten flour but with a protein content that is slightly lower than the All Trumps. That is perhaps a good thing for your use because it should result in a finished crust with slightly less "chew" than what you would get using the All Trumps. For comparison purposes, I do not believe that Domino's or Papa John's is using a strictly high-gluten flour but that Little Caesar's may be. Quite likely all three are using a proprietary flour blend made exclusively for them. For background informational purposes, this is the ingredients list for a Domino's "Hand Tossed Crust" (from http://www.dominos.com/home/menu/ingredients.jsp):

HAND TOSSED CRUST

Contains

Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin, Riboflavin, Folic Acid) Water, Vegetable Oil (Soybean), Sugar, Salt, Yeast, Vital Wheat Gluten, Less than 1% Dough Conditioners [Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, Whey, Enzyme (with Wheat Starch), Ascorbic Acid, L-cysteine, and Silicon Dioxide added as processing aid], Corn Meal (used in preparation).


It's possible that Domino's is delivering fresh dough balls to its stores but the ingredients list is similar to one that would be used to make frozen dough balls. Interestingly on this point, the other day I had a chat with a Domino's employee in the checkout line of a local supermarket and I asked him about the nature of the dough balls delivered to his store and whether they were fresh like those delivered by Papa John's to its stores. He thought for quite a while before answering my question but I got the impression from him that if the Domino's dough balls aren't frozen, they are very close to it.

To do some calculations on possible dough ball weights, can you tell me how much sauce and cheese, by weight if possible, Domino's uses on a typical 14" (large) cheese pizza? As a former Domino's franchisee employee, maybe you already know what a 14" dough ball weighs.

I checked the temperature for Fresno, CA and see that it is quite warm there this time of year. If you used lukewarm water, I can see how your dough may have been rising too fast and led to the decision to cut back on the amount of yeast to compensate. Can you tell me what time of day you make your dough (e.g., in the morning or in the evening around closing) and the temperature of the room where the dough is made? Also, what kind of mixer are you using (e.g., a planetary Hobart) and what is its capacity (80 qt.?)?

On the matter of hydration, I am more inclined to believe that your water content is on the low side. The Supreme flour should be able to tolerate a hydration of around 63%, although that is perhaps too high for a dough with oil in it too.

A while back, I did a lot of research on the Papa John's pizzas. Since there are a lot of parallels between a Papa John's dough and a Domino's dough, by reading what I wrote on the subject you might learn a lot about the "front end" of the chain pizza business that most people don't get to see. The Papa John's reverse-engineering/cloning thread is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html.

Peter



« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 12:20:29 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Franky99205

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Re: Chewey Pizza Dough
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2009, 03:32:26 PM »
As far as the hydration I palyed around with water content and what I found out was if I icrease the water by maybe 2-3 cups the dough will stay more moist in the cooler for longer time, but while you are making the dough balls it is very sticky and hard to work with.
At Dominos (and everybody else for that matter) of course they have sealed all their formulas as far as sauce and things. dough weight I do not remember bucause as said we received the dough balls. 

Current use
12"       14"      16"
7oz       9oz       11oz

Dominos used 5, 7, 9 oz from what I remember.

Fresno has hot days for a long time. I used cold water, cool water, luke warm water for making dough.
Using warm water has been the best for ease of use so far.


 

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