Chewey Pizza Dough

[Franky99205]

1-2 inches in diameter is when we received the dough ball. After 3-4 days they would proof in the walk-in to a normal size. At that point we could use them.
I am using General Mills high gluten flour. I am in Fresno, Ca. I hand stretch the dough

[Pete-zza]

Franky,

Am I correct in the assumption that you are trying to make an American style pizza, along the lines of a Domino's pizza (hand tossed crust) or a Papa John's pizza (original crust)? And where did you get your current dough recipe? I am trying to understand the logic of using 52.9% hydration for the dough.

I specifically asked you about the All Trumps flour because General Mills makes more than one high-gluten flour, as you will see from http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=Espring. Can you run down the list and tell me which specific flour you are using? That may have some bearing on the best hydration of the dough.

Can you narrow for me the window of usability of the dough you are after, e.g., a dough that can be used from x hours to y hours (e.g., from 24-72 hours)?

Peter

[Franky99205]

The list on General mills does not have the one I am using.
I am using
58353 Supreme course it has gold medal on it too. And far as the receipe, I got it from a friend. I was not into hydrations and all that.
I am after as you call it a dough that can be like Dominos with the shelf life of at least 2-3 days in the cooler and 3-4 hors at room temprature.
Am I using too much water?
All this very eye opening for me.

[Pete-zza]

Franky,

I found the Supreme 58353 flour under the Western Flours/Bread section of the General Mills website, at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=WBread. I was able to confirm that the flour is a high-gluten flour but with a protein content that is slightly lower than the All Trumps. That is perhaps a good thing for your use because it should result in a finished crust with slightly less "chew" than what you would get using the All Trumps. For comparison purposes, I do not believe that Domino's or Papa John's is using a strictly high-gluten flour but that Little Caesar's may be. Quite likely all three are using a proprietary flour blend made exclusively for them. For background informational purposes, this is the ingredients list for a Domino's "Hand Tossed Crust" (from http://www.dominos.com/home/menu/ingredients.jsp):

HAND TOSSED CRUST

Contains

Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin, Riboflavin, Folic Acid) Water, Vegetable Oil (Soybean), Sugar, Salt, Yeast, Vital Wheat Gluten, Less than 1% Dough Conditioners [Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, Whey, Enzyme (with Wheat Starch), Ascorbic Acid, L-cysteine, and Silicon Dioxide added as processing aid], Corn Meal (used in preparation).

It's possible that Domino's is delivering fresh dough balls to its stores but the ingredients list is similar to one that would be used to make frozen dough balls. Interestingly on this point, the other day I had a chat with a Domino's employee in the checkout line of a local supermarket and I asked him about the nature of the dough balls delivered to his store and whether they were fresh like those delivered by Papa John's to its stores. He thought for quite a while before answering my question but I got the impression from him that if the Domino's dough balls aren't frozen, they are very close to it.

To do some calculations on possible dough ball weights, can you tell me how much sauce and cheese, by weight if possible, Domino's uses on a typical 14" (large) cheese pizza? As a former Domino's franchisee employee, maybe you already know what a 14" dough ball weighs.

I checked the temperature for Fresno, CA and see that it is quite warm there this time of year. If you used lukewarm water, I can see how your dough may have been rising too fast and led to the decision to cut back on the amount of yeast to compensate. Can you tell me what time of day you make your dough (e.g., in the morning or in the evening around closing) and the temperature of the room where the dough is made? Also, what kind of mixer are you using (e.g., a planetary Hobart) and what is its capacity (80 qt.?)?

On the matter of hydration, I am more inclined to believe that your water content is on the low side. The Supreme flour should be able to tolerate a hydration of around 63%, although that is perhaps too high for a dough with oil in it too.

A while back, I did a lot of research on the Papa John's pizzas. Since there are a lot of parallels between a Papa John's dough and a Domino's dough, by reading what I wrote on the subject you might learn a lot about the "front end" of the chain pizza business that most people don't get to see. The Papa John's reverse-engineering/cloning thread is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html.

Peter

[Franky99205]

As far as the hydration I palyed around with water content and what I found out was if I icrease the water by maybe 2-3 cups the dough will stay more moist in the cooler for longer time, but while you are making the dough balls it is very sticky and hard to work with.
At Dominos (and everybody else for that matter) of course they have sealed all their formulas as far as sauce and things. dough weight I do not remember bucause as said we received the dough balls. 

Current use
12"       14"      16"
7oz       9oz       11oz

Dominos used 5, 7, 9 oz from what I remember.

Fresno has hot days for a long time. I used cold water, cool water, luke warm water for making dough.
Using warm water has been the best for ease of use so far.

[Pete-zza]

Franky,

Can you tell me what the two sets of numbers you posted relate to? And are the ounce numbers weights or volumes? As you will see from http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf, a 14" (large) Domino's Hand Tossed Crust Cheese Pizza (I assume baked) weighs 8 x 113 = 904 grams, or 31.89 ounces. If one knows the amount of cheese and sauce used on that pizza, then it should be possible to come up with a reasonable number for the crust alone, and make an adjustment to compensate for losses during baking. We aren't trying to exactly replicate the Domino's pizza, just to get a reasonable number for crust thickness.

There were several questions in my last post that you did not answer. To me, the questions and answers are important because they relate to temperature, which, along with yeast quantity, are perhaps the two most important factors that govern the results you will get with your dough. I don't want to burden you with more math, but you might want to take a look at the following post, and the items linked therein, in which the importance of temperatures is discussed: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg73486/topicseen.html#msg73486 (Reply 41). At some point, you will perhaps want to calculate the friction factor value for your particular mixer and batch size, and also to measure finished dough temperatures on a regular basis. You can take these measures with respect to your current dough making practices or after using the dough preparation and management methods recommended by Tom Lehmann at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554.html#msg64554.

In terms of hydration, I was thinking of a value of about 56%, which would be pretty close to the situation you mentioned where you added three cups more water. I also think that you will need more yeast. Using more yeast while adjusting water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80-85 degrees F might get you where you want to be.

Peter

 

[Franky99205]

                                     Medium 12"           Large 14"                Extra large 16"

Dough weight (Ounce)                  15                       21                                 27
Sauce Volume                              3                          5                                 6
Cheese          weight                     5                          7                                 9
This was what I remember we used in Dominos. All weight are in ounces.
I'll take your advise and add a bit more yeast. I'll keep you posted.

[Pete-zza]

Franky,

Based on the Domino's numbers you gave, you would use around 15 ounces of dough for your 12" pizza and around 27 ounces for your 16" pizza if you want to get close to the Domino's crust thicknesses for those two sizes.

Peter

[Franky99205]

Pete,

That's right. I use 15 ounce for my medium, 21 ounce for large and 27 ounce for extra large.
My dad used to tell me "If you ask the right question, you will get the right answer".
So here is my question,
What makes the dough chewey?
 

[Pete-zza]

Franky,

In Reply 6, you mentioned only two sizes, 12" and 16". I assume that the medium is 14". Is that correct?

As to your basic question, there can be several possible factors for a crust being too chewy. It can be because you are using a high-gluten flour, which has a relatively high protein content that can naturally result in a chewy crust. Some pizza operators use a weaker flour (one with less protein) or blend the high-gluten flour with a weaker flour in order to reduce the chewiness. A chewy crust can also be caused by a dough that is underhydrated for the particular flour used. That is why I suggested increasing the formula water from its current 52.9% to something higher that is closer to the rated absorption value for your particular flour. If a dough is overkneaded, you can also end up with an overly chewy crust. That is one of the reasons why I suggested that you use the dough preparation and management protocol as set forth in Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554.html#msg64554. I believe that that protocol should be at the center of what you are doing, and adjust it if necessary based on your particular results. You might also end up with a chewy crust because of insufficient leavening, that is, too little yeast. That is why I suggested using more yeast. Lowering it to slow down the fermentation process is not the ideal approach in my opinion. It is better to get the proper amount of yeast for the window of usability you are after and to control the temperatures to get the finished dough temperature in the optimum range as noted below. If the pizza is baked too long and the crust dries out too much, you can also end up with an overly chewy crust.

If I think long enough, I perhaps can come up with another reason or two for getting an overly chewy crust, but the ones given above are the ones that come to mind at the moment.

Overall, what you should be looking for is balance in the formulation, including temperature control. That means having the right hydration and the right amount of yeast. The rest of the ingredients appear to be in order for the style of pizza you are trying to make, so I don't have any suggestions as to those items. With respect to temperature control, that means controlling water temperature to get the finished dough temperature in the right range (80-85 degrees F) if you are using dough boxes and a cooler (you would use a lower finished dough temperature if you are using trays covered with bags).

I hope that you will keep us posted on your progress.

Peter

[Franky99205]

Pete,

Your knowledge and sharing it with me and others is just great. I am going to read the thread posts that you have enclosed. I am sure I'll solve the mystry. I know sometimes I over kneat the dough, but I did not keep track of the outcome. I'll do that as well.
I have 3 sizes that I call medium or 12", Large or 14" and 16" or extra large.
By the way how many years have you been in the pizza making business?
You are right I did not communicate too well to begin with and that's why it took so many back and worth. I'll work on that as well.
 

[Pete-zza]

By the way how many years have you been in the pizza making business?

Franky,

Zero. Pizza is a hobby for me.

Peter