oh, lordy, i don't have time for this, but here goes.
I think everyone here is well aware of 'autolysis' and it's role in gluten development. Its impact on overall texture and crumb can be significant. However I should stress again it is rarely used in pizza making...even for pizza as unique as that of Anthony Mangieri. I'm sure someone here can post a link to the photographs taken circa 2005? which clearly show how he used to mix his dough...no autolyse in sight.sigh
. anthony mangieri uses an autolyse, as does jim lahey (not a true one, but with the effects of one, due to the delayed yeast-adaptation because he uses active dry yeast), nancy silverton, ken forkish, and a whole host of other new-world, american-styled pizzaiolos, most of whom, like me, don't differentiate between breadmaking and pizzamaking. as a point of interest, the role of autolysis in pizzamaking has less to do with 'gluten development' or 'texture and crumb' than it does with promoting dough extensibility.
http://www.doale.com/index.php?/photoroot/series-belong/ are the photographs I was referring to.
While it's true you can't definitively conclude from those photographs whether autolyse was used, they do seem to imply a more simple technique where water is gradually added to flour (and presumably starter) to make the final dough.
photographs tell you very, very little, if anything.
FWIW I dont' think there has been any real confusion about 'poolish' on this thread.
well, there seems to be on your part.
Since we are talking about a 'mangieri' dough, it's assumed that everyone knows that 'poolish' actually refers to the wet naturally yeasted preferment shown clearly in the video. Wet starter or liquid starter may be a more appropriate term in a wider sense but in the context of the discussion - it's pretty much understood what it refers to.
Your claim that using 'wet starter' is a technique 'cribbed from italian bakeries' is a bold one and I shall reserve comment - you are of course entitled to your opinion.
a wet starter is different than the term 'poolish' as we are discussing here, both in the artisan-baking community in the u.s., as well as italy, they achieve very different ends. the sponge-and-dough method i am referring to (outlined by e.j. pyler) uses the pre-ferment as a means of bypassing the main fermentative actions that normally take place during bulk fermentation (the inoculation and adaptation of the yeast culture; the assimilation of free, and mostly simple, sugars, such as glucose, fructose, and sucrose, which are converted into carbon dioxide and ethanol by zymase, which exists in yeast cells, not lactobacilli; the assimilation of maltose, converted to glucose by yeast maltase; the initial, intense period of gas production (rather than retention), which occurs in the first thirty minutes of fermentation; and, eventually, the conversion of damaged starches into maltose because of a and beta-amylases). as pyler notes: "In the sponge-and-dough method, the major fermentative action takes place in a preferment, called the sponge, in which normally 50 to 70% of the total dough flour is subjected to the physical, chemical, and biological actions of fermenting yeast. The sponge is subsequently combined with the rest of the dough ingredients to receive its final physical development during the dough mixing or remix stage…." the percentage of poolish used by mangieri in 'naturally risen' (approximately 50% by flour weight) produces an end-dough with very different characteristics than one using just a wet starter, and, in this sense, he can be said to 'build' his starter, or pre-ferment. it is that intermediate step that matters the most for mangieri's dough.
he yeast fermentation process which produces carbon dioxide and ethanol is a completely different metabolic pathway (and indeed different microorganism!) to those of lactobacilli -
which metabolise many different sugars (not just maltose) along both heterofermentative and homofermentative pathways resulting in different acid products (not just lactic acid).
but mostly homofermentative in mangieri's case, as already noted.
All these processes usually occur simultaneously.
no they don't, and that's why it's important to understand exactly what mangieri's doing.
The use of a wet starter allows the development of a certain flavour profile which is then added to the final dough...one which might not have developed otherwise using a direct mixing method (although if we're talking semantics, one could argue there is no such thing as a direct mix for naturally yeasted doughs since they will always contain some percentage of prefermented levain/starter).
it's not semantics, because the use of 'prefermented levain/starter' is introduced at much lower levels of inoculation than a naturally-yeasted poolish, which effectively skips over to the 'proofing' step, and results in a tighter dough that favours elasticity; that is in the gas-retention phase; and where yeast and bacterial reproduction are slowed.
Well, I think we are both making the same point. It was your initial post in which you seemed to assert that 'wet starters' typified italian baking, which I disagreed with.
to the contrary. i said mangieri is likely using a dough-building method cribbed from a handful of italian bakeries by particular american bakers. it is a method used by several artisan bakeries in the u.s. and australia.
There were no tubs in evidence in the video for bulk fermentation only a metal tray. I believe the 'tub' you are referring to was used to house the levain - not the final dough.
was semantics. my tub is your tray, or vice-versa, but they're the 10-kg trays/tubs all the rage in paris at the moments for bulk retarding baguette dough.