Author Topic: Anthony Mangieri Video  (Read 35148 times)

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Offline s00da

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2009, 04:23:19 PM »
The best dough flavor I currently achieve with IDY is using a 24 hours room temp. fermentation. Bulk for 19 hours and then balled and proofed for 5 hours. One thing I noticed is that by the bake time, the dough has a sweaty and sticky surface which is most likely caused by the protease enzyme. What I'm thinking is, what if I use a preferment? Would I achieve the same flavor and avoid this protease effect? This would greatly increase the usability window of the dough.

Might be worth trying.


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2009, 04:33:17 PM »
What I'm thinking is, what if I use a preferment? Would I achieve the same flavor and avoid this protease effect? This would greatly increase the usability window of the dough.

That's one of the major reasons a pre-ferment is used to help acheive more developed flavors in a dough.....with the pre-ferment, you are able to imbue the finished product with developed flavors without the entire dough bill fermenting for too long.....pre-ferments help to avoid the eventual collapse of the glutten structure which eventually occurs during long fermentations of direct dough.

A pre-ferment can also be created and then stored for eventual use later on, so it very much increases the usability window of the dough from that persective as well.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 04:36:19 PM by pizzablogger »
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Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2009, 04:38:36 PM »
I see how preferments can produce unique flavor/dough characteristics.  I don't see how they yield major time or flexibility benefits versus direct fermentation.  In fact using a preferment adds more steps and complexity to the doughmaking process.  One must still know final batch size to know how much preferment to make.  And the preferment itself needs to be started no less far in advance than a direct fermentation.

The flexibility only really becomes apparent in a commercial bakery where you might have 5 different types of bread all using poolish (for example). It makes things simpler and allows a baker to make a wide range of breads with a relatively simple workflow. The final dough takes less time from mixing to finished product. A poolish can sit unattended while bakers are either off work or doing something else - plus it's not taking up valuable refrigeration space which might be used for croissants, brioche etc.

There's nothing wrong per se with making all your dough using direct mix. You can get great tasting results that way - but it won't be the same. Preferments aren't superior in that sense, they are just a useful alternative. One which Anthony Mangieri clearly chose to use.
Since sourdough bread/pizza dough is inherently preferment/levain based,  the debate of direct vs preferment is kind of moot.

Toby
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 04:45:27 PM by Infoodel »

Offline pacoast

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« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2009, 05:02:12 PM »
Pete-zza, Just FYI. It's really helpful that you reference various sources of information for further reading. Of course external links often die after a period of time. So you may find it useful use an archive search engine. Just plug the dead link into the search engine to see if they have a copy of the material that the link used to point to. As long as the content owner doesn't specifically object, you can even click to have current material archived to guard against a link "dying" in the future.

The best known of these archives is the Wayback machine, which can be used as a search engine for broken links. It's the address that I mentioned earlier in this thread - http://web.archive.org/collections/web/advanced.html

.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2009, 05:43:59 PM »
pacoast,

Thank you for the explanation. I missed your highlighting of the word "archives" in your post at Reply 38 so it wasn't until I saw what Toby did in Reply 41 that I saw what you meant. I will have to try an archive search engine with some of the very informative and useful links to posts that used to reside in the PMQ Think Tank forum before they scuttled it in favor of the current forum setup.

Peter

Offline scpizza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2009, 10:09:22 AM »
It makes things simpler and allows a baker to make a wide range of breads with a relatively simple workflow. The final dough takes less time from mixing to finished product.
I don't understand that.  If a baker must do one unique batch mix for each type of dough anyway, leavening the mix with preferment instead of yeast is not saving any effort.  Morever, unless he is using the old dough method, he had to spend additional time to make the preferment.

While the final dough takes less time from the mixing that incorporated the preferment, it takes no less time from the initial mixing of the preferment itself.  I don't see any net time savings.

Quote
A poolish can sit unattended while bakers are either off work or doing something else - plus it's not taking up valuable refrigeration space which might be used for croissants, brioche etc.
A direct dough can sit unattended while bakers are doing something else just the same.  As to refrigeration space, if bakers intend to continue the cool rise after the final mix then they will need to cool the water and/or flour to be added anyway, perhaps using the very same refrigeration space.

Quote
Since sourdough bread/pizza dough is inherently preferment/levain based,  the debate of direct vs preferment is kind of moot.
True with sourdough bread.  But debatable with sourdough pizza that often is made from small quantities of starter that one could argue are not true preferments.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 10:34:37 AM by scpizza »

Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2009, 11:09:05 AM »
Quote
I don't understand that.  If a baker must do one unique batch mix for each type of dough anyway, leavening the mix with preferment instead of yeast is not saving any effort.  Morever, unless he is using the old dough method, he had to spend additional time to make the preferment.

While the final dough takes less time from the mixing that incorporated the preferment, it takes no less time from the initial mixing of the preferment itself.  I don't see any net time savings.
I never said anything about 'net time savings'. It's making a bakery's workflow easier that counts. Unlike a levain, (Baker's) yeasted preferments are not  typically added to leaven the final dough but to add specific flavour and dough characteristics. They're used like an ingredient. For example - they can add extensibility or strength to a dough and aid dough development where one might otherwise require intensive mixing.
Quote
A direct dough can sit unattended while bakers are doing something else just the same.  As to refrigeration space, if bakers intend to continue the cool rise after the final mix then they will need to cool the water and/or flour to be added anyway, perhaps using the very same refrigeration space
That's the point of the preferment. You don't need a cool rise after the final mix. It's like mixing a 'quick' dough at the end. All the flavour benefits are already present in the preferment.
I'm not saying you CAN'T mix a direct dough- many people do - but if you have a number of breads which could all benefit from the same preferment - it's kind of daft not to at least consider incorporating it into your workflow. A bakery might have, say, two preferments it mixes every day. As I said above, these are used just like 'ingredients' - in the same way as flour, water or salt.
The logistics of a commercial bakery are quite different from home baking.
Quote
True with sourdough bread.  But debatable with sourdough pizza that often is made from small quantities of starter that one could argue are not true preferments.
A starter, regardless of quantity is a preferment by its very nature. So whether someone uses a lot or a little, one is relying on the nature of the preferment; more so in sourdough, perhaps, than in any other type of bread (or pizza). Whether that is effective in the final product, is where the skill lies.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 02:45:28 PM by Infoodel »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2009, 12:29:01 PM »
In his book The Taste of Bread, Professor Raymond Calvel presents a table, Exhibit 4-2 Schematic Comparison of Baking Methods, at page 46, in which he lays out the total elapsed times for seven different dough making methods. One can see that table by going to Amazon.com and using the "look inside" feature for the The Taste of Bread book. For search purposes, I used "Exhibit 4-2 Schematic Comparison of Baking Methods". For those who can't access the exhibit for any reason, I believe I can summarize it. However, what is clear from the exhibit is that, except for a natural sourdough preferment or Levain dePate (a hybrid of natural starter and commercial yeast), once a preferment is on hand and ready to use, the total time between mixing and baking is shorter than for the straight dough method. For example, if a poolish is on hand and ready to be used, the total elapsed time between mixing and baking is given as 4 hours and 45 minutes. For a straight dough, the elapsed time from mixing to baking is given as 6 hours. Similarly, for a prefermented dough (a "new" old dough or a piece of a prior day's dough) that is on hand and ready to use, the total elapsed time from mixing to baking is also 4 hours and 45 minutes. Naturally, for a Levain dePate or natural sourdough preferment, the total elapsed times between mixing and baking are longer, 5 hours and 15 minutes in the case of the Levain dePate and 6 hours and 45 minutes in the case of the natural sourdough preferment.

So, it depends when you start the clock running. In a typical home setting with occasional or sporadic use of preferments, the total elapsed time from start to finish using preferments will be longer than for the straight dough method. But if you are a baker and have preferments ready to go on a daily basis, except for the Levain dePate and the natural sourdough preferment, the total elapsed time from the point a preferment is actually used up to the point of baking is shorter than for the straight dough method. Professor Calvel does not specifically address biga or sponge preferments in the abovereferenced exhibit, but I believe that they would behave like the poolish in terms of elapsed times.

Peter



« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 12:34:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline scpizza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2009, 06:02:32 PM »
From a business efficiency standpoint I would be focused on the least total time from flour and water to finished product and the fewest number of mixing steps to make that journey.  Using preferments that's a longer total time and an extra mixing step.

Fridge space savings notwithstanding, I see the only major benefit of preferments to be the unique flavor/dough characteristics they bring - and that's a major benefit!


Offline scpizza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2009, 01:44:08 PM »
BTW, some of the missing pictures from the article are here: http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2009, 10:17:19 AM »
For kicks, I have been studying the Mangieri video at some length to see if I can decipher how he made his pizza dough at UPN.

As part of my analysis, the first order of business was to determine how much flour Anthony removed from the 55-lb. bag of Caputo flour using the white plastic scoop and the Edlund balance scale shown in the video. The answer to that question might yield some information on his dough batch weight. It has been a very long time since I last used a balance scale and when I couldn’t figure out from the video how much flour Anthony was weighing, I went to the Edlund website in search of further information. I found a pdf document at http://www.edlundco.com/pdf/doughscale.pdf, which showed all the parts, but there were no user instructions. So, I called Edlund and asked to speak to someone who could tell me how to use the Edlund balance scale. I also wanted to know the values, in pounds, of the free weights used with the scale. A very nice lady at Edlund told me that the free weights are 8 lb., 4 lb., 2 lb., and 1 lb., and was kind enough to email me another pdf document with instructions on how to use the scale.

As best I can tell from the Edlund document and the video, Anthony is using the 4 lb. and 2 lb. free weights, along with the poise set at the 16-ounce (1-lb.) notch of the ounce beam. It’s also possible that he is using the 1 lb. free weight but it is hard to say on my monitor (see the 36-second mark of the video). If only the 4 lb. and 2 lb. free weights are being used, that would suggest that Anthony removed 7 pounds of flour from the bag. Otherwise, with the 1 lb. free weight also on the scale, the amount of flour removed from the bag would be 8 lbs. I have set forth below the instructions from the second pdf document in case my analysis is incorrect and someone more familiar with balance scales can come up with a correct value:

The Edlund Company, Inc. of Burlington, Vermont USA, manufactures bakers DoughScales, models BDSS and BDS. Each scale comes complete with measuring weights, an oversize white plastic scoop and scoop counterweight. The scoop counterweight is designed to offset the empty weight of the scoop. For accurate results, they must always be used together.

The counterweight must be calibrated prior to using the scoop. To do this:
1. Place the scoop on the left hand platform.
2. Remove the cover of the scoop counterweight and place the cover and the container on the right hand platform.
3. Be sure that the poise is at the zero position of the ounce beam.
4. Fill the plastic container with salt until the platforms float and are in balance.
5. Secure the top to the counterweight container.

The scale can be operated using the scoop as follows:
1. Place the scoop on the left hand platform and the adjusted counterweight on the right hand platform.
2. To weigh product in pound increments, place the appropriate measuring weights on the right platform and add the product to the scoop until the platforms float freely.
3. The scale beam measures in ¼ oz./5g Increments up to 1 pound/500g. For measuring product of 1 lb or less, slide the poise to appropriate notch, (i.e. 8 oz.), and add product to the scoop until the platforms float.
4. Weight is measured by adding together the pounds of free weight placed on the right platform and number of ounces selected on the scale beam.

Ex. If you wish to weigh 4 lbs. 8 oz./2250g of flour in the scoop, add the four-pound weight to the right hand platform, move the poise to the 8-ounce/250g position and pour flour in the scoop until the platforms float evenly.


Assuming my calculation was correct, that led me to the second question. Why was the flour removed from the flour bag? Was it because of 1) capacity constraints of the mixer (the mixer looks large enough to handle a lot of dough but I have not been able to identify the model used), 2) to achieve a desired finished dough batch size or specified number of dough balls after the addition of old, or prefermented dough, or 3) to be used for bench flour purposes or for some other application, including using it to feed the culture or to make a new batch of prefermented dough. If the latter, why would Anthony casually toss the small amount of flour in such a large container under the counter? I am not sure of the answers, and one can only speculate from the video.

After looking at the video several times, I believe that Anthony was using a prefermented form of “old dough” along the lines discussed by Didier Rosada (at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm) but using a small amount of natural starter (regularly fed) in lieu of commercial yeast. Such a prefermented dough should be able to endure a long period of room temperature fermentation (e.g., 24 hours). It might or might not include salt but I would guess no salt. Anthony’s own house literature states that the salt (Sicilian sea salt) is mixed in with the flour, presumably at the time of the final mix.

The use of a prefermented form of old dough would not appear to do injustice to the statement in Anthony’s house literature that pizzablogger posted in Reply 37 that says that “a piece of dough from the day before” is used. The statement does not say that the piece of dough is from the prior day’s actual dough production (that is, from the final mix). So, in my opinion, prefermented dough made the day before should qualify. Also, I did not get the impression from the video that some of the dough from the final mix is set aside for the next day’s dough. If such were the case, one would want to very carefully weigh either the dough taken from the bowl or the dough left in the bowl in order to get uniformity and consistency of results from day to day. I suppose that some license may have been taken with the video in this respect, but if simple steps like weighing flour are shown why would you omit the step of setting aside some of the dough for the next day’s use if it is considered an integral and important part of the Mangieri dough making method?

It is also important to keep in mind that the material that pizzablogger posted in Reply 37 appears to go back several years. So, what Anthony was doing in more recent times could well have changed from time to time from the original description of his dough making methods.

If I am correct that no dough from a given day’s production is used for the next day’s production, and that a prefermented form of old dough is used, then any unused dough left at the end of the evening could be thrown away, as Anthony’s house literature states. If one thinks about it, it would be impractical to try to salvage and reuse a few leftover unused dough balls at the end of the evening. The proper way to use old dough in such a case would be to take a significant portion of the dough from the day's production and set it aside for incorporation into the next day's dough.

On the matter of hydration of the prefermented dough, looking at the video it seems to me that the glob of dough in the rectangular tub could be similar to the hydration of the finished dough, although the tub dough may seem more highly hydrated because of the weakening of the gluten structure and the release of water from its bond due to the action of enzymes in the dough, as I believe Toby (Infoodel) earlier noted. I might add that a hydration of 64% would be typical of a prefermented dough (Didier Rosada states a range of 64-66%). It is also possible that Anthony’s starter has a higher hydration than the prefermented dough or final dough. I recently saw a video at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2009/04/videos-pure-and-simple-anthony-mangieri-una-pizza-napoletana-nyc.html that shows a tub of a highly-hydrated dough but it is not clear if that is the starter or prefermented dough.

Getting back to the numbers, if 7 pounds of flour is removed from the 55-pound bag of flour, that leaves 48 pounds. Assuming a hydration of 64% (as scott r noted), the water would add 30.72 pounds. That is equivalent to about 3.68 gallons. I suspect the video was truncated as to this aspect so as not to have to show the addition of all of that water. We don’t know how much prefermented dough Anthony would use, or his total dough formulation, but if we assume that the prefermented dough is about 15 pounds, which wouldn’t appear to be out of line from the size of the tub shown in the video (which looks to be quite full), and perhaps also adequate to produce dough balls usable after several hours of additional room temperature fermentation, then the total dough weight would come to around 94 pounds, or maybe around 95-96 pounds when the weight of the salt is added (I assumed 2% salt).

On the assumption that a typical dough ball weight is 10 ounces, as Anthony once told me, 95 pounds of dough would make 152 dough balls (assuming no dough losses or use of a lot of bench flour). In the video, I estimate that Anthony has about a couple dozen dough boxes (to the left and below the oven and also behind Anthony in the video), with each holding six dough balls. That number of dough boxes would be about right for about 150 dough balls. When I spoke with Anthony on typical daily dough ball volumes for his place, the figure he gave me (a few years ago) was 120 dough balls. I have no idea as to what volume Anthony was doing at the time of his decision to move on or at the time the video was made although it appears that he may have been experiencing more competition toward the end of his tenure in the business. Of course, the above numbers for the dough batch would change a bit if 8 pounds of dough is removed from the bag of flour and if he used more or less old dough than what I used in the above example.

With respect to what some members believe to be a small bowl of water on the counter, it is possible that that water is held aside to be used to fine tune the hydration of the dough and compensate for humidity, the weather, flour condition and variations, time of year, and other such factors. These are factors that Anthony has mentioned and discussed before as part of his challenge of making quality dough on a consistent basis. Apparently something was done with the bowl of water, since the bowl ended up under the counter (at the 52-second mark).

Peter
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 07:02:54 PM by Pete-zza »

Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video - more points of confusion.
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2009, 12:49:54 PM »
Nice detective work Pete! - esp. regarding reading the scales. I'm so used to pushing a button and reading the display!
In the other video you mentioned ('Pure and Simple') Anthony appears to be kneading the levain before the video cuts to a dough division and shaping. Is it possible this is actually a stage not shown in the 'Naturally Risen' video  where Anthony is mixing a levain for the next day. 
It's clear in the 'Naturally Risen' video that the ripe levain is simply scraped into the mixing bowl with no kneading required....soooo if the 'Pure and Simple' video shows Anthony kneading this raises the question why knead a levain which has already fermented if you're going to scrape all the contents into the mixing bowl anyway? Is it possible this is a shot of Anthony mixing the preferment for the next day? If so, one could conclude that the hydration for the levain is higher than the final dough. If nothing else, some water must have been added (again pointing to the additional container of water on the worktop).
To counter that argument, it's also clear in 'Pure and Simple' that there is dough high on the sides of the tub where Anthony is kneading the levain - possibly indicating that fermentation has already taken place....but one could also argue that he's simply using the same tub he just previously emptied.

Toby
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 12:52:43 PM by Infoodel »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2009, 01:29:06 PM »
Toby,

No matter how good our forensics work is, there are bound to be things that are missing--either to create a "better" story flow for the video or to obfuscate certain details for trade secret purposes. I went back to the Pure and Simple video and, to be honest, we can't really tell what Anthony has in the tub. It could be the starter and Anthony is just punching it down before measuring out some of it to use, or he may have just fed it and is stirring it to incorporate the flour and water, or he has incorporated an amount of flour and water with the starter to make a prefermented dough. But, whatever it is, it appears to have a higher hydration than the final dough.

As you noted, in the Naturally Risen video, Anthony does not knead the glob in the tub. He could do so but there would be no real reason to do so since the mixer should be able to properly incorporate the glob into the final dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 02:43:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2009, 02:19:13 PM »
I am of the belief that, given the casual nature of how the initial dough weighed out from the 55lb Caputo bag was tossed into the blue bin, that much of that flour is used for bench flour.

The videos show a quite liberal use of bench flour during both the ball shaping and definitely while AM is shaping the skins just prior to topping and firing the skins.

If we are to assume that AM made approximately 120 to 150 dough balls per evening, here is the average flour loss per dough ball during the entire process from forming to firing:

8 pounds speculated weight of flour measured from bag and put into blue trashcan

8 pounds divided by 120 dough balls would equate to 0.066lbs lost flour per ball, or just over 1/16 of a pound
8 pounds divided by 150 dough balls would equate to 0.053lbs lost flour per ball, or about 1/20 of a pound

This certainly seems like a realistic per dough ball loss of bench flour throughout the entire process, so I am speculating that is primarilly what it is fo. Just a gues though
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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2009, 02:43:01 PM »
As an FYI, I had one of the most bizarre pizza moments of my life on Saturday.

I attended the Pieman's Craft event at Motorino Manhattan (old Una Pizza Napoletana space) and to make a long story short, just after the event was over I was briefly standing outside with Mangieri alone, with the full intent of mentioning the curiosity sparked by the Naturally Risen video and what the flour put in the blue bucket was for and, more importantly, I also wanted to inquire if only old dough from the day before leaven the current day's dough and, if so, what amount (by percent of formula flour or total weight, whichever he was using as a reference when making dough) it was used in.

I have also heard mentioned, and I cannot place the source anymore, that Mangieri "used a starter which was now 12 years old". This was a few years ago and may not be part of the process anymore, but I also wanted to inquire if a natural yeast starter was maintained and used to inoculate a preferment at some point of the process in lieu of, or in combination with old dough.

Just before I talked to him it struck me, literally out of nowhere and quite powerfully, that for some reason I didn't want to know (even if he would talk about it), that I enjoyed the mystery of it more than knowing. It was an awkward moment (and I am a blabbermouth not afraid to talk with anyone) and I kind of just stalled for a second and simply thanked him for coming back to take part of the event and wished him luck in San Francisco, where he announced he is opening a new place by March of 2010.

I'm an incredibly curious person by nature and its very strange to have had that moment and still not be able to entirely explain why.....and yet I'm okay with that. Effing bizarre.  :-[
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2009, 03:04:57 PM »
...  that for some reason I didn't want to know (even if he would talk about it), that I enjoyed the mystery of it more than knowing.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I've said often that someone else's method is an illusion. The only thing that matters is your method. So many little details that people in this thread are trying to suss out may never be known. Still, this has been a fun thread to read just to witness Peter's tour de force skills in research and deductive reasoning.


 

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2009, 03:21:58 PM »
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I've said often that someone else's method is an illusion. The only thing that matters is your method. So many little details that people in this thread are trying to suss out may never be known. Still, this has been a fun thread to read just to witness Peter's tour de force skills in research and deductive reasoning.

You are correct Bill. Anyone can be given a written recipe and it's ultimately just that....pen and paper. I already make a pretty good dough, but it's up to me to feel my way until I am happy that my dough is as close to the full expresion of what I envision is a great pizza dough as possible.

It is indeed a pleasure to see Peter in action. If Ed Levine updates his book "A Slice of Heaven", I'll campaign hard that Peter should be added to the "Keepers of the Flame" section.  :D
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Offline thezaman

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2009, 03:55:28 PM »
pizzablogger , will you be willing to give us a report on the event? when i visited motorino  in the upn location it seemed he was following a lot of upn methods that i had seen on different videos . any thoughts?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2009, 04:12:02 PM »
Bill and pizzablogger,

Thanks for the kind remarks. As they say, the devil is in the details.

I, too, originally thought that Anthony was using old dough from a prior day's dough production and that he may have been using one of the Italian starters. However, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4010.msg33504.html#msg33504, pizzanapoletana (Marco) corrected my analysis of what Anthony was doing at the time. However, in retrospect, I believe Marco's discussion in that post fits the notion of using prefermented dough rather than a piece of dough from the prior day's production. In the following Reply 3 in that thread, I further elaborated on what Anthony was doing at the time, including his use of a small amount of starter and wild NYC yeast.

I think it is also helpful to know that, according to the Pure and Simple video, Anthony read every book that was written in the 70s and 80s on baking, Naples and pizza--from "cover to cover, like five times". No doubt, that obsessiveness set the stage for what he was to do in making his UPN pizza dough. It was perhaps also the basis of Marco's complaint that Anthony was using bread making techniques and was "a bit still away from the right ancient method of making a neapolitan dough with a natural leavening" (Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679/topicseen.html#msg8679).

Peter

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2009, 05:00:34 PM »
@ thezaman

I'll post something about the event later when I have more time. In the meantime, here is a shot I took. Mangieri on left, Mathieu Palombino in middle, Ed "Slice of Heaven" Levine on right.

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Offline thezaman

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2009, 05:26:05 PM »
looking forward to it! a pic from my visit to motorino @ upn

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2009, 08:42:14 PM »
I remembered the source which mentioned the 12 year old starter batch and dug it out of my pile of magazines.

The June 30, 2008 issue of Wine Spectator had a cover story titled, "Great American Pizza". Anthony is one of the featured pizza makers. Some quotes from the article:

"He makes only about 100 pizzas a night"

"Mangieri makes his dough from a starter batch that he has nursed for 12 years"

"The Dough -- Mangieri's recipe relies on Italian 00 flour, a 12-year old starter and a two-day proofing period"

Not much insight, but gives some indication with regards to the amount of pizzas he made a night.
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2009, 10:01:58 PM »
"He makes only about 100 pizzas a night"

It's hard to know what number of dough balls Anthony made each day that he was open because his hours on Thursday and Friday were 5 PM until the dough ran out and on Saturday and Sunday from noon until the dough ran out. That leads me to believe that he made different amounts of dough for Thursdays and Fridays and for Saturdays and Sundays. However, 100 pizzas a night is a number I have seen before, for example, in the October 2007 article at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/02/FD9HS7D6R.DTL. Maybe that is for Thursdays and Fridays.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 10:49:36 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2009, 01:09:26 AM »
Like I said before, I watched the video numerous times and finally decided to take a leap of faith and try to recreate that poolish/preferment everyone sees Anthony pouring out of that rectangular tub/bucket.

When I saw that, I realized that one shouldn't stick to the order of scenes/sequences the video show us. It might be edited to achieve the most effect or educational value. What I mean by that is that that scene might have taken place the night before, meaning the poolish/starter preferment was made after the shop closes up and is left to do its job overnight - with the rest of the ingredients added the next day - in order to get the 24 hr fermentation of his dough Anthony always speaks of. At least that's what I'd do. And if he uses a starter (Ischia, I believe it is) he can still claim it's naturally leavened.

Anyway, I tried to re-create that "glop of dough" and started feeding my Ischia starter to the point of full activity. I then took 100 gr. of it and kept feeding that one with 1/2 Tbsp of KABF and with the same amount of water until I reached full activation again. I added another 1/2 Tbsp of KABF, same amount of water and had, after 30 mins of having it stored in a warm spot, again at full activation.

I degassed it, let it rise again and added it to my regular formula. The consistency was almost exact with what you see in the video. But then again, we won't really know because other factors, which are not mentioned or showed in the video I'm sure, play a role.

Like Bill/SFNM already said...

Quote
The only thing that matters is your method.

I cannot agree more. It's the only thing that's important...the love you put into any food you're making.

I shot a short video of the preferment I made and you can judge for yourself if I somewhat came close to what's shown in the AM vid or not. (Lighting isn't too great, though)  ;D :)

Here's the link:

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Mo

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2009, 09:45:09 AM »
It's hard to know what number of dough balls Anthony made each day that he was open because his hours on Thursday and Friday were 5 PM until the dough ran out and on Saturday and Sunday from noon until the dough ran out. That leads me to believe that he made different amounts of dough for Thursdays and Fridays and for Saturdays and Sundays. However, 100 pizzas a night is a number I have seen before, for example, in the October 2007 article at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/02/FD9HS7D6R.DTL. Maybe that is for Thursdays and Fridays.

Peter

I am surprised to hear such a low number of pizzas being made for one night, especially when (from what I've heard) he was turning people away regularly. Doesn't that seem odd to anybody else? He couldn't have been making much money with 100 pies a night.


 

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