Author Topic: Anthony Mangieri Video  (Read 33542 times)

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Offline mizrachi

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Anthony Mangieri Video
« on: September 25, 2009, 11:21:15 PM »


Offline David

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2009, 01:09:50 AM »
Great soundtrack &  nicely shot.
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2009, 07:03:35 AM »
Great Video, thanks for posting.

Offline Mo

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2009, 12:46:36 PM »
Very cool. I was just as into his ink as I was his pies.

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2009, 07:54:23 PM »
Nice video, you can tell his bread background when he is handling the raw dough.

I am assuming that he feeding, then later adding starter to the mixer. Is this correct? Amythimg else new/interesting you can pick up from this vid?

Jeff
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Offline scpizza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2009, 01:55:41 PM »
That was a good video.  Yes, lots of bread techniques here from the spiral mixer to the use of the preferment.  Dough looked amply hydrated.

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2009, 04:02:14 PM »
Dough looked amply hydrated.


I agree, but thought it could have been the size of the bulk dough too-any ideas of how high?
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Offline scott r

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2009, 05:38:01 PM »
anthony is using a wet dough, close to 64%.   This video is great for any copycats out there because it shows everything but the starter to poolish step.   That is not the starter you see, but the poolish.   He is not taking any shortcuts with his process, but like marco eludes to, I am not sure the extra preferment stage is helping that much.  Could be more work than is needed from what I have learned with my experiments, especially since he is using a starter.   Again, though, you cant slag him for taking the easy road!

Online jeff v

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2009, 09:35:42 AM »
anthony is using a wet dough, close to 64%.   This video is great for any copycats out there because it shows everything but the starter to poolish step.   That is not the starter you see, but the poolish.   He is not taking any shortcuts with his process, but like marco eludes to, I am not sure the extra preferment stage is helping that much.  Could be more work than is needed from what I have learned with my experiments, especially since he is using a starter.   Again, though, you cant slag him for taking the easy road!

Thanks Scott. Do you mean he is making a poolish from his starter or...? That's new to me.

Jeff
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Offline scott r

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2009, 10:39:55 AM »
yes

Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2009, 11:48:39 AM »
I've looked at this video (as well as others)- as well as the various articles that have been written regarding Mr Mangieri.  I also tried to calculate a work schedule based on the UPN opening hours and the process that was detailed on the UPN 'menu'.  I believe the actual process is somewhat simpler than some have claimed. I'm not sure that it even takes 48 or even 36 hours fermentation. It does, however, take place over two days.

Here is the method I think is being used:

First thing in the morning:-  mix up dough from old dough, new flour, water and salt.
There may be an intermediate bulk fermentation stage here (in the bowl?, or as the video shows- on a large tray).
Take some of the dough to form into dough balls for that evening's pizzas.
Put the rest of the dough (still in the mixer, I guess) in a tub and leave on the worktop for tomorrow morning - at which point it will have done a 24 hour ferment.
It's essentially a 30ish hour cycle which overlaps to give a 24 hour fermentation for the 'old dough'
The reason the old dough looks so wet, is because it has fermented a  long time and the gluten has broken down considerably, not because it's of a higher hydration.

There's no 'starter' or 'poolish' because it's all just old dough. No separate stages - just mix once a day and ferment. Bake some pizza in the evening and leave the rest for the next day. It's possible Anthony's method has changed over the years but  a recent NY  magazine article detailing 'a day in the life' mentioned how dough was mixed in the morning, divided at 2pm ready for baking that evening. This video confirms that article as being reasonably close to the method Anthony uses - at least since he got the spiral mixer.

FWIW I've actually tried this method for making bread before on a number of diff. doughs and it worked amazingly well. The fear is that overfermented dough will not be an effective leavening agent....not the case!
I've not made pizza this way yet - but will try when I have a few days to spare.

Toby
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 12:11:20 PM by Infoodel »

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2009, 12:56:30 PM »
Hmmm...that method is basically staright from the bakery.
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Offline Mo

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2009, 01:31:14 PM »
I've looked at this video (as well as others)- as well as the various articles that have been written regarding Mr Mangieri.  I also tried to calculate a work schedule based on the UPN opening hours and the process that was detailed on the UPN 'menu'.  I believe the actual process is somewhat simpler than some have claimed. I'm not sure that it even takes 48 or even 36 hours fermentation. It does, however, take place over two days.

Here is the method I think is being used:

First thing in the morning:-  mix up dough from old dough, new flour, water and salt.
There may be an intermediate bulk fermentation stage here (in the bowl?, or as the video shows- on a large tray).
Take some of the dough to form into dough balls for that evening's pizzas.
Put the rest of the dough (still in the mixer, I guess) in a tub and leave on the worktop for tomorrow morning - at which point it will have done a 24 hour ferment.
It's essentially a 30ish hour cycle which overlaps to give a 24 hour fermentation for the 'old dough'
The reason the old dough looks so wet, is because it has fermented a  long time and the gluten has broken down considerably, not because it's of a higher hydration.

There's no 'starter' or 'poolish' because it's all just old dough. No separate stages - just mix once a day and ferment. Bake some pizza in the evening and leave the rest for the next day. It's possible Anthony's method has changed over the years but  a recent NY  magazine article detailing 'a day in the life' mentioned how dough was mixed in the morning, divided at 2pm ready for baking that evening. This video confirms that article as being reasonably close to the method Anthony uses - at least since he got the spiral mixer.

FWIW I've actually tried this method for making bread before on a number of diff. doughs and it worked amazingly well. The fear is that overfermented dough will not be an effective leavening agent....not the case!
I've not made pizza this way yet - but will try when I have a few days to spare.

Toby


Yeah, I don't quite follow. Are you saying the very runny, wet, starter looking mixture he measures into the bowl for mixing with flour and h2o is old dough left to ferment for 24 hours at room temp?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 01:33:14 PM by Mo »

Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2009, 02:44:18 PM »
Yes, in effect he is, Mo.

However I think I may have got my initial assessment wrong.
I realised I was missing a part of the puzzle - something was bugging me about that video.
Anthony can clearly be seen to measure out a quantity of the 55lb bag of flour and throws it under the work bench before going on to mix the final dough.
I realise now what that might be used for.  The quantity was not enough imo for making the bulk of the contents of the 'starter tub' on its own - however it could be added to what remained in the mixing bowl after the final dough was mixed - to increase the amount of 'residual dough' as well as increase the fermentation time (and cut down on how much dough needs to be reserved - ie more pizzas!)
Here is my new suggested work schedule:

* Reserve some flour from a 55lb bag of Caputo.
* Use the rest of the bag together with the 24 hour fermented levain, salt and water to make the final dough.
* Take most of this dough and leave on a tray for a bulk ferment of a few hours
* Divide and shape the 'trayed' dough into dough balls - ready for making pizzas in about 4-5 hours time.
* Take the residual final dough and mix it with the previously reserved flour, additional water and salt - and put in a tub to ferment for 24 hours ready for the next day.

So in essence I was partly right, and so were others who have speculated on preferments etc.
Anthony DOES use a preferment - but does not maintain a  'chef' or storage starter in the form of poolish.
Rather, he uses old dough (pate fermentee...au levain!) together with additional flour, salt and water to make a 24 hour sponge (or intermediate levain if you like).

That's still speculation- but it fits all the details in the video and articles - and it's a pretty smart system imo! Here's hoping he finds a new location to continue the good work.
 
Toby
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 03:14:46 PM by Infoodel »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2009, 05:40:01 PM »
Toby, you sound like you have dug more into the UPN process than you initially indicated. ;) I think you are definitely in the ballpark, so to speak, if not in fact in the same section of seats.

I need to watch the video in more detail, but your assessment seems logical.

BTW, that UPN dough turned into the most flavorful pizza crust I have even eaten.

Killer video! Thanks for the link.  ;D
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Offline andreguidon

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2009, 06:13:51 PM »
Infoodel, so he uses sourdough, because regular yeast will die eventually... right ?
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Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2009, 06:31:45 PM »
Infoodel, so he uses sourdough, because regular yeast will die eventually... right ?
I honestly don't know why Anthony chose sourdough originally - but yes his apparent method is certainly built around it. Maybe he was inspired by Da Michele?
As others have commented - it seems to be a part-bakery, part-neapolitan approach.
For him to have used (baker's) yeasted Pâte fermentée in large quantities would either have meant different work hours or refrigeration (which he apparently refused to do).

Toby
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 06:34:00 PM by Infoodel »


Offline scott r

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2009, 12:22:38 AM »
Infoodel, so he uses sourdough, because regular yeast will die eventually... right ?

yes, you can not carry on this technique starting with commercial yeast, only with a starter.


I was not speculating on the idea of anthony using a preferment (poolish) made with more than just old dough.  This is a really great method for making pizza or bread.   You guys should try it!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 10:33:55 AM by scott r »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2009, 06:22:17 AM »
thanks guys !
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2009, 06:48:11 AM »
Yes, in effect he is, Mo.

However I think I may have got my initial assessment wrong.
I realised I was missing a part of the puzzle - something was bugging me about that video.
Anthony can clearly be seen to measure out a quantity of the 55lb bag of flour and throws it under the work bench before going on to mix the final dough.
I realise now what that might be used for.  The quantity was not enough imo for making the bulk of the contents of the 'starter tub' on its own - however it could be added to what remained in the mixing bowl after the final dough was mixed - to increase the amount of 'residual dough' as well as increase the fermentation time (and cut down on how much dough needs to be reserved - ie more pizzas!)
Here is my new suggested work schedule:

* Reserve some flour from a 55lb bag of Caputo.
* Use the rest of the bag together with the 24 hour fermented levain, salt and water to make the final dough.
* Take most of this dough and leave on a tray for a bulk ferment of a few hours
* Divide and shape the 'trayed' dough into dough balls - ready for making pizzas in about 4-5 hours time.
* Take the residual final dough and mix it with the previously reserved flour, additional water and salt - and put in a tub to ferment for 24 hours ready for the next day.

So in essence I was partly right, and so were others who have speculated on preferments etc.
Anthony DOES use a preferment - but does not maintain a  'chef' or storage starter in the form of poolish.
Rather, he uses old dough (pate fermentee...au levain!) together with additional flour, salt and water to make a 24 hour sponge (or intermediate levain if you like).

That's still speculation- but it fits all the details in the video and articles - and it's a pretty smart system imo! Here's hoping he finds a new location to continue the good work.
 
Toby

Toby,
Great work, I think you're pretty bang on with your theory. The question is how much old dough (%) is being used? ???

Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2009, 12:41:57 PM »
Over three years ago, I did some experimenting with the use of old dough in the context of what Anthony Mangieri was doing at the time based on his own internal promotional materials. I discussed my efforts at Reply 55 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9547.html#msg9547. Later, I had an opportunity to visit UPN and to have a nice chat with Anthony about his methods. That was on September 16, 2006. I filed my trip report at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,953.msg31559.html#msg31559. Today, I looked in my files to see if I kept my notes on that visit (which I prepared back in my hotel room after visiting with Anthony). Fortunately, I kept the notes. I specifically recalled asking Anthony about how much old dough he was using, and I most likely tossed out a figure of 15% because that seemed to be consistent with what is often used for old dough applications. My notes say "less than 15%". I neglected to note whether that was as a percentage of formula flour or total dough weight, but because of the way Anthony hesitated for a few moments to ponder my question, I would be inclined to guess that he was thinking as a percentage of total dough weight.

Peter

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2009, 03:03:34 PM »
Interesting. I don't know what Anthony's work day was like in 2006, but for the dough to rise significantly between mixing in the morning and baking in the evening, 15% wrt flour would be too low. So 15% of overall weight of mixed dough sounds more likely-  which would be about 3x% baker's percentage.

"because that seemed to be consistent with what is often used for old dough applications."

What application were you considering? I don't imagine old dough is a particularly common practice in Pizza making. In bread baking, it's rarely used as the sole leavening agent but rather as a preferment in combination with baker's yeast (Chris bianco does this I believe). One well-known bakery that comes to mind is Poilane, but the bakers there are working multiple shifts and using two stage builds to make the bread.

Toby

« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 03:30:09 PM by Infoodel »

Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2009, 03:33:43 PM »
Hmm my math was off - 15% total weight would work out closer to 25% wrt flour...unless my math is still failing me!  Assuming it's right - that's on the low side imho.

Toby

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2009, 04:53:09 PM »
"because that seemed to be consistent with what is often used for old dough applications."

What application were you considering? I don't imagine old dough is a particularly common practice in Pizza making. In bread baking, it's rarely used as the sole leavening agent but rather as a preferment in combination with baker's yeast (Chris bianco does this I believe). One well-known bakery that comes to mind is Poilane, but the bakers there are working multiple shifts and using two stage builds to make the bread.

Toby,

By way of background, as a novitiate on the use of old dough (or pate fermente, prefermented dough, etc.), I got my education on the subject mainly from three sources: member bakerboy, who is a professional bread baker and sometimes pizza maker; from the writings of Didier Rosada, formerly an instructor at the San Francisco Baking Institute; and Tom Lehmann, of the American Institute of Baking.

The 15% figure I mentioned came from bakerboy, who recommended a range of 15-25% old dough as a percent of formula flour. You can see an example of his handiwork at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1288.msg11535.html#msg11535, where he used 20% old dough (or "new" old dough) as a percent of formula flour. I subsequently played around with old doughs in the De Lorenzo thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html. As specific examples, see the series of posts starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44522.html#msg44522 and also Reply 86 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44598.html#msg44598. At the time, there was speculation that De Lorenzo's was using the old dough method. That speculation ultimately led me to a dead end since they were not using the old dough method but I learned a lot in the process.

What I learned from Didier Rosada is that old dough (which he calls a prefermented dough) can be used in a range of 10% to about 180% of the flour of the final mix. The specific amount of prefermented dough to use will depend on the particular application, when it is to be used, and whether it is stored at room temperature or in the cooler. If the prefermented dough is taken from an existing dough batch, it is usually removed during the first proof and stored in the cooler. Rosada says that if a prefermented dough is made separately to be used the next day, it can be 20-30% of the total formula flour.

Tom Lehmann usually discusses old dough in the context of professional pizza operations where operators end up with dough at the end of the day that they would like to use in some way in the next day's dough rather than throwing the dough away. Tom usually advocates that the amount of recycled dough be around 15% of the next day's batch of dough.

I agree with you that, apart from the recycling of unused dough as advocated by Tom Lehmann, it is not common for the old dough method to be used commercially in pizza making. I also agree with you that it will take a fair amount of leavening power, whether it is from a basic preferment like a poolish or old dough, or a combination of both, to be able to make and use the dough the same day. According to my notes, at the time I chatted with Anthony, he said that he refreshed his preferment daily, and that it was combined with old dough, which was followed by a fermentation of the final dough of 24 hours or more.

Peter



Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2009, 06:00:36 PM »
Thanks for the references Pete.
Some of those pizzas of bakerboy sure look tasty!
I'm wondering if, when Didier Rosa referred to 'prefermented dough, he was talking about preferments in general (biga for example). The 180% upper limit is high for pate fermentee...at least in my limited experience. On the other hand, I've noticed that some italian breads use a LOT of biga compared to final flour. Of course when you start adding salt in intermediate levains/builds etc. - the distinction from 'proper dough' becomes less clear.

Your account of Anthony's method seems quite different from what appears to be shown in the video. Of course that might be a matter of video editing for brevity and showing a clear,  linear, process. There was no indication of a distinct preferment and old dough - everything seemed to focus on the 'tub of gloop' on the worktop.  I'll have to give this some more thought and see if I can't figure out an alternative process.

Thanks again,


Toby

« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 06:07:29 PM by Infoodel »