Anthony Mangieri Video

[Pete-zza]

Over three years ago, I did some experimenting with the use of old dough in the context of what Anthony Mangieri was doing at the time based on his own internal promotional materials. I discussed my efforts at Reply 55 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9547.html#msg9547. Later, I had an opportunity to visit UPN and to have a nice chat with Anthony about his methods. That was on September 16, 2006. I filed my trip report at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,953.msg31559.html#msg31559. Today, I looked in my files to see if I kept my notes on that visit (which I prepared back in my hotel room after visiting with Anthony). Fortunately, I kept the notes. I specifically recalled asking Anthony about how much old dough he was using, and I most likely tossed out a figure of 15% because that seemed to be consistent with what is often used for old dough applications. My notes say "less than 15%". I neglected to note whether that was as a percentage of formula flour or total dough weight, but because of the way Anthony hesitated for a few moments to ponder my question, I would be inclined to guess that he was thinking as a percentage of total dough weight.

Peter

[Infoodel]

Interesting. I don't know what Anthony's work day was like in 2006, but for the dough to rise significantly between mixing in the morning and baking in the evening, 15% wrt flour would be too low. So 15% of overall weight of mixed dough sounds more likely-  which would be about 3x% baker's percentage.

"because that seemed to be consistent with what is often used for old dough applications."

What application were you considering? I don't imagine old dough is a particularly common practice in Pizza making. In bread baking, it's rarely used as the sole leavening agent but rather as a preferment in combination with baker's yeast (Chris bianco does this I believe). One well-known bakery that comes to mind is Poilane, but the bakers there are working multiple shifts and using two stage builds to make the bread.

Toby

[Infoodel]

Hmm my math was off - 15% total weight would work out closer to 25% wrt flour...unless my math is still failing me!  Assuming it's right - that's on the low side imho.

Toby

[Pete-zza]

"because that seemed to be consistent with what is often used for old dough applications."

What application were you considering? I don't imagine old dough is a particularly common practice in Pizza making. In bread baking, it's rarely used as the sole leavening agent but rather as a preferment in combination with baker's yeast (Chris bianco does this I believe). One well-known bakery that comes to mind is Poilane, but the bakers there are working multiple shifts and using two stage builds to make the bread.

Toby,

By way of background, as a novitiate on the use of old dough (or pate fermente, prefermented dough, etc.), I got my education on the subject mainly from three sources: member bakerboy, who is a professional bread baker and sometimes pizza maker; from the writings of Didier Rosada, formerly an instructor at the San Francisco Baking Institute; and Tom Lehmann, of the American Institute of Baking.

The 15% figure I mentioned came from bakerboy, who recommended a range of 15-25% old dough as a percent of formula flour. You can see an example of his handiwork at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1288.msg11535.html#msg11535, where he used 20% old dough (or "new" old dough) as a percent of formula flour. I subsequently played around with old doughs in the De Lorenzo thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html. As specific examples, see the series of posts starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44522.html#msg44522 and also Reply 86 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44598.html#msg44598. At the time, there was speculation that De Lorenzo's was using the old dough method. That speculation ultimately led me to a dead end since they were not using the old dough method but I learned a lot in the process.

What I learned from Didier Rosada is that old dough (which he calls a prefermented dough) can be used in a range of 10% to about 180% of the flour of the final mix. The specific amount of prefermented dough to use will depend on the particular application, when it is to be used, and whether it is stored at room temperature or in the cooler. If the prefermented dough is taken from an existing dough batch, it is usually removed during the first proof and stored in the cooler. Rosada says that if a prefermented dough is made separately to be used the next day, it can be 20-30% of the total formula flour.

Tom Lehmann usually discusses old dough in the context of professional pizza operations where operators end up with dough at the end of the day that they would like to use in some way in the next day's dough rather than throwing the dough away. Tom usually advocates that the amount of recycled dough be around 15% of the next day's batch of dough.

I agree with you that, apart from the recycling of unused dough as advocated by Tom Lehmann, it is not common for the old dough method to be used commercially in pizza making. I also agree with you that it will take a fair amount of leavening power, whether it is from a basic preferment like a poolish or old dough, or a combination of both, to be able to make and use the dough the same day. According to my notes, at the time I chatted with Anthony, he said that he refreshed his preferment daily, and that it was combined with old dough, which was followed by a fermentation of the final dough of 24 hours or more.

Peter

[Infoodel]

Thanks for the references Pete.
Some of those pizzas of bakerboy sure look tasty!
I'm wondering if, when Didier Rosa referred to 'prefermented dough, he was talking about preferments in general (biga for example). The 180% upper limit is high for pate fermentee...at least in my limited experience. On the other hand, I've noticed that some italian breads use a LOT of biga compared to final flour. Of course when you start adding salt in intermediate levains/builds etc. - the distinction from 'proper dough' becomes less clear.

Your account of Anthony's method seems quite different from what appears to be shown in the video. Of course that might be a matter of video editing for brevity and showing a clear,  linear, process. There was no indication of a distinct preferment and old dough - everything seemed to focus on the 'tub of gloop' on the worktop.  I'll have to give this some more thought and see if I can't figure out an alternative process.

Thanks again,


Toby

[pizzablogger]

Toby, I have some more thoughts.......that tub of gloop is gonna end up driving both you and I crazy....and keeping you up much too late past your bed time I'm afraid!

I'll be hitting you on the g-mail with some more rambling and speculation.

[Mo]

Yes, in effect he is, Mo.

However I think I may have got my initial assessment wrong.
I realised I was missing a part of the puzzle - something was bugging me about that video.
Anthony can clearly be seen to measure out a quantity of the 55lb bag of flour and throws it under the work bench before going on to mix the final dough.
I realise now what that might be used for.  The quantity was not enough imo for making the bulk of the contents of the 'starter tub' on its own - however it could be added to what remained in the mixing bowl after the final dough was mixed - to increase the amount of 'residual dough' as well as increase the fermentation time (and cut down on how much dough needs to be reserved - ie more pizzas!)
Here is my new suggested work schedule:

* Reserve some flour from a 55lb bag of Caputo.
* Use the rest of the bag together with the 24 hour fermented levain, salt and water to make the final dough.
* Take most of this dough and leave on a tray for a bulk ferment of a few hours
* Divide and shape the 'trayed' dough into dough balls - ready for making pizzas in about 4-5 hours time.
* Take the residual final dough and mix it with the previously reserved flour, additional water and salt - and put in a tub to ferment for 24 hours ready for the next day.

So in essence I was partly right, and so were others who have speculated on preferments etc.
Anthony DOES use a preferment - but does not maintain a  'chef' or storage starter in the form of poolish.
Rather, he uses old dough (pate fermentee...au levain!) together with additional flour, salt and water to make a 24 hour sponge (or intermediate levain if you like).

That's still speculation- but it fits all the details in the video and articles - and it's a pretty smart system imo! Here's hoping he finds a new location to continue the good work.
 
Toby

So I've watched this a few more times and have some questions: when he measures out the flour at the beginning, you can clearly see the tub of old dough/poolish/starter sitting in a clear tub on the measuring bench. He also has h20 measured out in two containers, one large and one small. After he measures the flour he throws it into the blue tub under the bench. He uses the bigger of the two waters for the mix along with the rest of the bag. One could speculate that the smaller container of water was thrown in the blue tub with the initial amount of flour. Is this his starter (natural)? Or one could speculate that it was thrown in the mix.

Why do you assume he leaves dough in the mixer? When he pulls the first amount of dough out of the mixer, he throws it on the bench. The next shot is with a much larger quantity of dough on the bench where he works it for a bit. 

Assuming he uses a natural starter, are we to assume also that he has already measured the starter into the liquidized old dough  (in the tub on the bench)?

It seems obvious that the initial flour and small amount of water go to feeding a starter. That's just my gut.

[Essen1]

After watching the video numerous times, a few scenes in slow-mo, it looks to me that the "gloop" coming out of that bucket looks more like a starter preferment to me rather than a day-old dough.

But perhaps the wetness of it is misleading.

Just my $0.02...

[Essen1]

Btw,

Has anyone seen this in regards to Anthony's oven?

http://nymag.com/restaurants/features/39299/

[Infoodel]

So I've watched this a few more times and have some questions: when he measures out the flour at the beginning, you can clearly see the tub of old dough/poolish/starter sitting in a clear tub on the measuring bench. He also has h20 measured out in two containers, one large and one small. After he measures the flour he throws it into the blue tub under the bench. He uses the bigger of the two waters for the mix along with the rest of the bag. One could speculate that the smaller container of water was thrown in the blue tub with the initial amount of flour. Is this his starter (natural)? Or one could speculate that it was thrown in the mix.

Why do you assume he leaves dough in the mixer? When he pulls the first amount of dough out of the mixer, he throws it on the bench. The next shot is with a much larger quantity of dough on the bench where he works it for a bit. 

Assuming he uses a natural starter, are we to assume also that he has already measured the starter into the liquidized old dough  (in the tub on the bench)?

It seems obvious that the initial flour and small amount of water go to feeding a starter. That's just my gut.

Mo, I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing.  I see the dough pulled out of the mixer and then put somewhere off camera (presumably a tray).
The video then cuts to the dough being taken off a tray and shaped into final dough balls.
I don't think there are two different portions of dough in play - at least not from the video. The 'size discrepancy' may be a visual illusion due to perspective?

 As for the flour + water - I noticed the smaller portion of water also.  I still think this would still work if mixed with the residual dough + extra flour (from the blue tub?) to make up the 24 hour 'tub dough'. It's possible that the hydration of the contents of the tub is higher than the final dough. 

To clarify - what I am suggesting is: 24 hour gloop is a combination of residual dough from the mixer + water + flour + possibly salt - which answers Essen's concerns about the appearance of the 'gloop' as starter preferment rather than old dough.

I'm not saying that is 100% definitely the solution - it just seems to fit what the video shows.
I'm going to look at the numbers and see if I can work out a old dough + preferment + '24 hour dough ball' method based on the same video clues...but that seems like an unnecessarily complex method to me.

Toby

[Pete-zza]

I'm wondering if, when Didier Rosa referred to 'prefermented dough, he was talking about preferments in general (biga for example).

Toby,

No, Rosada was referring to a prefermented dough in an old dough sense, not some other preferment. I used to have links to his discussion of the subject but I found today that they are now dead. I will see if I can find another source.

Peter

[Infoodel]

Toby,

No, Rosada was referring to a prefermented dough in an old dough sense, not some other preferment. I used to have links to his discussion of the subject but I found today that they are now dead. I will see if I can find another source.

Peter

No probs. That may indeed be what he meant - esp. if the dough was being refrigerated before the first proof (or bulk ferment) is through. It may even be mentioned  in Advanced Bread and Pastry or possibly one of the SFBI newsletters - but I don't have my copy to hand (it's across the pond in the states :-/ )
Thanks anyway.
Toby
 

[Mo]

Mo, I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing.  I see the dough pulled out of the mixer and then put somewhere off camera (presumably a tray).

First he's dusting the bench. Then he pulls a hunk of dough out of the mixer and puts it on the floured bench. Then it cuts to him hand working a large amount of dough on the same bench, at which point he picks up the whole lot and scurries past the camera. Then they pick it back up with him unloading a portion of dough out of a box onto the marble where he commences to scaling. My point is, you never see the next day's old dough. Whether or not this is of any note, I have no clue. Like you, it is fun for me to try and decipher the method...

[widespreadpizza]

Anthony is using a wet dough, close to 64%.  this video is great for any copycats out there because it shows everything but the starter to poolish step.  that is not the starter you see, but the poolish.  He is not taking any shortcuts with his process, but like Marco eludes to, I am not sure the extra preferment stage is helping that much.  Could be more work than is needed from what I have learned with my experiments, especially since he is using a starter.  again, though, you cant slag him for taking the easy road!

I just re watched the video a couple times,  and i think Scott has it right here.  He adds a poolish to make a new dough.  The poolish is very wet,  probably 100% hydration for the ease of the math and started by a VERY small percentage of his activated starter,  and is therefore fine to go for 24-36 hours or whatever.  Its not going to blow or anything,  just create great flavors.  Bake day,   he comes in,  adds a the poolish to new flour and appropriate amounts of water to make dough,  leaves it to ferment for sometime3-6 hours?,  mind you most of the flavor of this dough is already in there and the leavening is running strong after its new feeding.  pull it out of the mixer,  divide ball,  let rest for 3-6 hours before baking.  By using a poolish,  he takes some of the temperature variables out of making a final dough,  meaning it cannot overferment and blow like a completed dough can.  Also,  he can vary the size of the poolish to control the doughs fermentation time to adjust for ambient temps.  If this is anywhere near right,  I think it is a great method that allows for some flexibility.


bottom line I think of the claimed 48 hours

4-8 hours activating his starter
24-30 hours poolish
10-12 hours final dough

I might have to try something like this soon. -marc

[Infoodel]

I just re watched the video a couple times,  and i think Scott has it right here.  He adds a poolish to make a new dough.  The poolish is very wet,  probably 100% hydration for the ease of the math and started by a VERY small percentage of his activated starter,  and is therefore fine to go for 24-36 hours or whatever.  Its not going to blow or anything,  just create great flavors.  Bake day,   he comes in,  adds a the poolish to new flour and appropriate amounts of water to make dough,  leaves it to ferment for sometime3-6 hours?,  mind you most of the flavor of this dough is already in there and the leavening is running strong after its new feeding.  pull it out of the mixer,  divide ball,  let rest for 3-6 hours before baking.  By using a poolish,  he takes some of the temperature variables out of making a final dough,  meaning it cannot overferment and blow like a completed dough can.  Also,  he can vary the size of the poolish to control the doughs fermentation time to adjust for ambient temps.  If this is anywhere near right,  I think it is a great method that allows for some flexibility.


bottom line I think of the claimed 48 hours

4-8 hours activating his starter
24-30 hours poolish
10-12 hours final dough

I might have to try something like this soon. -marc

I suppose it's possible there is another storage starter being used here - but then why the reference to previous dough in the UPN literature as well as articles etc?  Is that just window dressing - a 'token' amount added to the 'poolish' you mentioned?
It's possible there is an off-camera starter used to mix a preferment (Not a poolish imo - it's a little stiffer than 100% - assuming it's all caputo flour that's being used in the preferment).  A poolish is no 'safer' or less prone to temperature effects in my experience (and actually can be more temperamental at cooler temps and high hydrations).
If, as I think is being implied,  old dough is added to the preferment for the sake of flavour alone, then why at the preferment stage? It would make far more sense to add it during the mixing of the final dough to have full flavour benefit.
When we see the final dough being pulled from the mixer, it seems there is a considerable amount left still in there...did Anthony just make more dough balls from this?
These are all possibilities -I just think some are more likely than others while trying to keep off-camera speculation to a minimum.

Toby

edit: just to clarify again - the method I'm suggesting is just as 'safe' as using storage starter. It uses a portion of the *newly mixed* dough with added flour, water and salt to make up a 24 hour preferment to be added to the next batch of dough.  There's no danger of overfermentation - and yes it could be mixed to a poolish type consistency.
Perhaps the use of the adjective 'old' in 'old dough' is misleading in this respect.

[widespreadpizza]

Toby,  you raise a couple good points.  I was guessing at the hydration of the poolish or sponge,  but you can see he is careful with his movements so as not to spill it.  Then when he does it almost all of it pours right out,  only a little remains.  So either way we can suppose that its not old 65% hydration dough.  All I meant about not being as sensitive to temps,  is that when using a natural yeast in small amounts over a long period of time,  it is much much more forgiving than using your average quick yeast poolish,  and more forgiving than a overfermented finished dough.  The quick stir he does before adding the preferment must be to incorporate salt into the flour.  Also note that the flour he dumps onto the bin underneath must be for excess flour storage.  That looks like dry storage to me.  He weighed the bag of flour by subtracting a fixed amount from it,  say 10 pounds.  If there is 10 pounds of flour in his preferment,  and say 10 pounds of water,  then he knows he has to add 10 pounds less water to the mix then he would for making a direct dough out of a whole bag of flour.  Also I think I was wrong,  he bulk ferments in a pizza tray,  he just cant fit it all into one,  hence why there is some left to the bowl hes gotta put thee rest in another tray.  Who knows,  maybe I am all off on the whole thing,  after watching it over and over,  it just started to seem like it makes sense.  The only weird thing about the old dough theory,  is after being closed for a few days where's his old dough then,  do activate your starter to make a dough so that you have an old dough,  to make the new dough.   Or was it in the fridge becoming more and more acidic the whole time?  wouldn't that lead to an inconsistent product?   -marc

edt:  I didn't notice you edited.  the old dough terminology might be causing confusion, or he could have changed methods over the years.

[pizzablogger]

In case anyone has not seen this for further aid in the discussion:

[pizzablogger]

The other half

[pacoast]

Rosada was referring to a prefermented dough in an old dough sense, not some other preferment. I used to have links to his discussion of the subject but I found today that they are now dead.

Peter, can you pass along the (non-working) link? There are half a dozen archives, that may have saved a copy of the old page.

.

[Infoodel]

Peter, can you pass along the (non-working) link? There are half a dozen archives, that may have saved a copy of the old page.

.

The article(s) used to be at cafemeetingplace.com -but they've reorganised the archives and I can't find them there anymore.
I didn't have any joy with archive.org but you might have better luck.
The old (non working) links are:
http://www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm
http://www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm

Here's a *working* link to an article by Didier Rosada on preferments which covers what Pete mentioned:
http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm

Hope that helps

Toby