Author Topic: I want larger voids!!! HELP!  (Read 13378 times)

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Offline pizzabill

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I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« on: February 22, 2005, 05:37:19 PM »
Ok, this has been driving me nuts...  For weeks I've been trying different things to change the density of my crust edge and nothing has worked. What are the variables that effect the size of voids?

I've tried the following:
1. Varying final dough temp
2. Allow a room temp rise before retarding
3. Many different amounts of water
4. Amount of yeast

I still get tiny bubbles in the outer crust rather than nice, quarter or nickel sized voids. Do any of you have suggestions?

You can see the voids I'm getting on my site: www.pizzamaniac.com/images/012905c.jpg

Thanks ahead of time...

-PizzaBill


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Offline duckjob

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2005, 07:34:50 PM »
Just out of curiosity, how do you shape your dough.  I've found that as long as I handle the dough alright when I toss and shape it that regardless of the yeast content, I can get decent sized air pockets in the crust.  I would say most are in the 1/4" and 1/2" diameter range, but it definately doesn't have that bread like texture to it. Also  before I prepare a pizza I'll usually let it sit on the counter for 1-2 hours. Hope this helps.

Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2005, 08:40:04 PM »
You're not using a rolling pin, are you?  ;)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2005, 08:42:37 PM »
Pizzabill,

In my experience, the best way to get large holes in a pizza crust is to use a high hydration dough (depending on the style of dough you are trying to make), and to handle the dough as little as possible so as not to deflate the dough and degass it. This rules out using a rolling pin. If you have ever made a ciabatta bread or witnessed someone who has, you will note two things: the hydration is super high (over 70 percent) and there is virtually no handling of the dough except through the use of a dough scraper. Most people panic when they see how wet the dough is and start adding flour to make it drier. That usually is a big mistake and results in a poor product, without the desired large holes. But, when it is done right, the ciabatta has very large holes of irregular size and shape. I think the same principles apply to dough when it is desired to have a pizza crust that is open and airy with a lot of holes.

My recollection from visiting your site is that you use a bread machine a lot. As you may know if you have read about my experiences with using a bread machine to make the Lehmann NY style pizza dough (see, for example, Reply #51 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.40.html), I am not a particular fan of bread machines. I think they do a better job of making bread dough than pizza dough. Yet, I try to keep an open mind and to ever be hopeful of figuring out a way to make a good pizza dough using a bread machine, and especially so since I own a Zo machine that just sits around most of the time doing nothing. I concluded that you have to use the machine in a certain way to minimize heat buildup and minimize overkneading (which usually results in a tight, closed crumb), and, to this end, I suggested some ways in the above-referenced post that might be used to do this. I have meant to follow my own suggestions but have been remiss in doing so. I will have to add that experiment to my pizza "to do" list.

I don't think that finished dough temperature or amount of yeast is the problem, even though I try to keep the finished dough temperature around 80 degrees F. The Lehmann NY style dough can use as little as 1/8-1/4 t. IDY and, if the hydration is high enough (I usually shoot for around 63%), it will produce a light, open and airy crust. For a NY style dough, like the Lehmann dough, I do not recommend letting the dough rise before retarding, since that makes the dough act more like an insulator and is harder to cool down, and especially so if a lot of yeast is used. Although I don't do it with my Lehmann NY style doughs, you might consider letting your shaped dough rise for about 20 minutes before dressing. That should help create a more open and airy crust, but it may also make the crust soft and more bread-like rather than chewy.

Peter

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2005, 09:21:11 PM »
Ok, thanks guys - now were talkin'!!

Duckjob, I am pretty careful when shaping - I particularly avoid the rim so I'm pretty sure that's not it.

Steve, I only use a roller for thin dough - so that can't be it.

Peter, I think you are definitely on to something. It very well could be the bread machine. I hadn't thought of that and I didn't read your thread about it (a search for "voids" didn't come up with much). It mixes slow for about 5 minutes, then takes off like a boat propeller!  It is very possible that this is ruining my cell structure.

I will go back and read your referenced thread in detail. Hopefully, I will have a chance to validate your theories. If not, I'll have to talk my wife into needing a mixer!

Thanks all for the quick response. Where else can you ask a tough question after work and get the answer in time to make dough that night?!?

-PizzaBill
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http://www.PizzaManiac.com/

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2005, 09:33:58 PM »
I was thinking this board might have other real pizza makers on it but I see that it is populated with wannabees. The thing you are missing is the basic chemistry and micro biology that is the art of dough.

Learn how yeast works on protien and gluten then the anwser is simple. Need to know more?
Any great pizza maker would not post his trade secrets to any public board.

I do private consultation work for those who want to save years of trial and ERROR. Contact me at admin@homespunpizza.com if you are interested in the real deal.

Ps It does not matter if you make your dough by hand in a well on a table in a bread machien or a 120 quart hobart mixer. It is chemistry not machanics at play here.
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Offline duckjob

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2005, 10:19:38 PM »
bubba, there is no need to insult the people on this board. If you don't have anything constructive/informative to say, don't bother posting.

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2005, 11:48:33 PM »
You are probably right. I'm sorry if have offended. I shall never darken your door again!
Share a piece with a friend!

Offline Trinity

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 05:39:10 AM »
"wannabees",,,, ::) ???

Must have not taken the time to dig through the fourms. ;)


"wannabees",,, ROFL ;D
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.


Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2005, 07:45:57 AM »

I do private consultation work for those who want to save years of trial and ERROR. Contact me at admin@homespunpizza.com if you are interested in the real deal.


Thanks, Bubba, but we actually ENJOY the trail and error. We also enjoy SHARING our experiences with each other. That's the whole point to a community site like this. It always nice to have "Great" pizza makers here, and there are plenty of those! But frankly greatness comes with respect which comes from generosity and a willingness to share and encourage those who are not at your level.

For what it's worth, some of the most famous bakers in the world are quite open about their gifts. Good luck with your consulting business and thanks for the hints.

-PizzaBill

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Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2005, 09:29:19 AM »
I was thinking this board might have other real pizza makers on it but I see that it is populated with wannabees. The thing you are missing is the basic chemistry and micro biology that is the art of dough.

Learn how yeast works on protien and gluten then the anwser is simple. Need to know more? Any great pizza maker would not post his trade secrets to any public board.

Ps It does not matter if you make your dough by hand in a well on a table in a bread machien or a 120 quart hobart mixer. It is chemistry not machanics at play here.

First, let me say that we all learn by trial and error. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Are you saying that as a "real pizza maker" you were born with this knowledge?

Why would you even bother coming to this site (or any site) to discuss pizza making since apparently you already know everything there is to know about making pizza?

Perhaps you came here simply to ridicule us for trying to learn (by trial and error) since no "great pizza makers" would ever dare help us.

If you'd care to eat humble pie (pun intended), we'd love to have you as an active member of the forum.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 12:29:02 PM by Steve »

Offline brianc

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2005, 11:18:53 AM »
Talk about timing.  I was just thinking this morning that I'd like to up the hydration in my dough to get more large voids, especially in the rim.  So my question is, with a more hydrated dough, will I be tossing it out and topping it when it is sticky, or should I still rub down the outside with flour/cornmeal/etc. before that?

Brian

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2005, 11:40:38 AM »
brianc,

A high hydration dough will often be quite extensible and, depending on what happens to it during refrigeration, can be a bit moist. So, I advise dusting the dough ball with a light amount of flour on both sides once you flatten it to start the shaping process. I have found it far easier to toss a more elastic dough than an extensible one, which can get away from you if you are not careful and possibly create thin spots near the center of the dough. Most of the time I just use my knuckles to stretch the dough out to the desired diameter and use my fingers for any final finishing touches. And I make sure there is enough flour (or you can use corn meal if you prefer) on the peel to be sure that the dough doesn't stick during dressing and peeling into the oven.

Peter

Offline bortz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2005, 11:43:13 AM »
I'd like to submit that not using a rolling pin can make larger voids as stated earlier BUT if you must use a rolling pin, you can get some of the voids by letting the dough rise  before topping it.  I just did some experiments with this concept and a dough that rises on the pan (provided it has enough life left in it to even rise after it's been retarded) after it has been rolled with a pin, can indeed have voids in it but not big voids if you use the pin on it, top it and pop it in the oven immediately.  I've tried different moisture contents and that doesn't have as much of a difference on void size as dough compression.  I've tried differing amounts of yeast (as some remember from an earlier post I did on this subject). I went from my usual 2 tsp. of ADY to 1 tsp. (1 tsp. is what I used for trial purposes- my usual is 2 tsp.) and that had little effect on hole size and really changed the crust taste substantially. I think the dough taste change was due to keeping the sugar content the same while using less yeast.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 11:46:06 AM by bortz »

Offline bortz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2005, 11:49:59 AM »
I forgot to mention that somebody on here suggested that void size is also an effect of oven temperature.  This is true, as I have also found from more experiments.   

Offline bortz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2005, 01:35:21 PM »


Contact me at admin@homespunpizza.com if you are interested in the real deal.


You haven't posted anything to lead one to believe you are anything but a wannabe yourself.  Pictures are worth a thousand words. Do you have any of yourself with your finished product?

Offline pftaylor

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2005, 01:39:55 PM »
Everytime I look at bubba's picture with the big disc I think size apparently doesn't matter...
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Offline LeeB

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2005, 01:57:19 PM »
I was thinking this board might have other real pizza makers on it but I see that it is populated with wannabees. The thing you are missing is the basic chemistry and micro biology that is the art of dough.


Just plain RUDE.......

I've been plenty happy whith the responses from the people that post on this board and will continue to listen and learn.

Offline bortz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2005, 02:12:03 PM »
Everytime I look at bubba's picture with the big disc I think size apparently doesn't matter...

I think he photoshopped the UFO picture from Roswell with a picture of his kitchen.  ;D  Now why didn't I think of that..... :D

Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2005, 02:37:31 PM »
Now, now, guys. Unlike our guest, we must show some civility here.

I for one hope that Bubba eats some humble pie and decides to share his tricks of the trade with us.


Offline JAG

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2005, 03:07:11 PM »
Steve,
         I would like to say I am very impressed with your self control. When Bubba mentioned that no real pizziaolo would post their recipe, I was crushed, and I am ready to hang up my peel and stone. All this time I believed in Tom Lehmann, Big Dave, and Tony Gemignani, but since they have made public their recipes, they must not be the "real deal".
         Bubba maybe we could trade notes on micro biology, I work with nano structures and would be interested to see some of your reports, studies and findings (I'm sure you are a few steps ahead of the aforementioned pizza guys). I have a real nifty SEM (that would be a Scanning Electron Microscope) that takes some nice pix at about 30K resolution.
         Hey bubba maybe you shouldn't quit your day job just yet.

JAG

Offline duckjob

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2005, 03:39:06 PM »
Got a slice picture that kinda shows off the air bubbles. I used Pete's adaptation of  Tom Lehmanns NY style with 2-1/2 cups of flour and a tsp of IDY and 3/4 cup of water.

http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/tomlehmannslice.jpeg

Not the best digital pic I've ever taken, but you get the idea.

Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2005, 04:05:44 PM »
Taken from the Encyclopizza dough troubleshooting guide
http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730480



31 - Crust forms bubbles during baking
 

Possible Causes
  

Remedy    
 
Dough under-proofed (i.e., under-risen)          
 Use more-risen dough for making pizza. See the previous section on Under-risen Dough Balls. Also, read the chapter on Dough Manage­ment.
 
Dough over-proofed
(i.e., over-risen)
 Use less-risen dough for making pizza. See the previous section on Over-risen Dough Balls. Also, read the chapter on Dough Management.
 
High percentage of water in dough formula
 Reduce the water portion in the dough formula by 2 to 4 percent of flour weight. This can help reduce the presence of super-large (pita-bread style) bubbles.
 
COMMENT: Most bubbling problems are caused by under-proofed dough. For top quality crust, the recommended way to reduce bubbling is use optimally proofed dough—neither under-risen nor over-risen. However sometimes that’s not always possible. In emer­gency cases, when dough is under-proofed, perforate the rolled dough using a dough docker. However, docking has the effect of creating a very flat crust. So unless you desire a flat crust, docking should only be used as a last resort. Other methods of (possibly) reducing bubbles include (a) assem­bling the pizza with the soft bottom side of the dough facing up, and (b) using a slightly longer bake time and lower tempera­ture. Because crust bubbling is a universal concern among pizze­rias, the following special discussion is provided.

Discussion: Crust Bubbling
Dough/crust bubbling is a problem that has plagued pizzerias for decades. Of course, not all pizzerias consi­der it a problem. Some actually like bubbles because they feel their customers like them. However, many operators abhor bubbles, especially the large kind that move cheese and toppings off an entire slice or, worse yet, off half the pizza.  

To eliminate bubbles it helps to know what happens during baking. Here’s how it works. Dough contains thousand of air cells created during fermentation or proofing. These air cells are separated from one another by cell walls. At the onset of baking, the air cells expand slightly due to a burst of yeast activity, a process called oven spring. Following oven spring, the starch in the cell walls gelatinizes, or absorbs surrounding moisture. Gelatinization, in turn, causes the protein (i.e., gluten) in the cell walls to lose moisture. The reduction of moisture in the protein causes it to retract and become less elastic. This results in pinpoint holes forming in the cell walls. Following that, the protein coagulates and, thereby, firms up—giving the crust its firm cellular structure. Following coagu­la­tion, steam develops in the cells and vents out the pinpoint holes and, eventually, out the top of the crust. To see evidence of where steam vents out the top of the crust, scrape away the cheese and sauce from a properly proofed, properly baked pizza and you’ll see many small holes in the top of the crust, which served as steam vents.

For the pinpoint holes to form in the cell walls, the walls must be of the proper thickness and contain the proper amount of moisture. When dough is improperly proofed—that is, either under-risen or over-risen—the cell walls are of the “wrong” thickness. In under-proofed dough they are too thick. In over-proofed dough they are too thin.

When holes fail to form in the cell walls, the steam generated during baking cannot dissipate properly from the cells. As a result, it builds up within each cell, forcing the cell upward and eventually ripping the cell walls. In effect, instead of dissipating through an open cellular network and out the top of the crust, as happens with properly proofed dough, the steam rips open the cellular structure in a chain reaction—rupturing one cell wall after another and, eventually, forming one large cell.

There’s a difference between bubbles formed from under-proofing versus over-proofing. Bubbles from under-proofing tend to be flat but large in diameter. If unpopped, they can blow up an entire pizza. This is the process by which pita or pocket bread is made. Bubbles from over-proofing tend to be high but smaller in diameter. They rise up like little ping-pong balls and eventually form a hole at the top, at which time they stop expanding. They almost always burn. Most pizza bubbling problems are of the under-proofed type.  

To resolve a bubbling problem, dough fermentation must be adjusted accordingly. To stop bubbling caused by under-proofed dough, increase the amount of fermenta­tion. To stop bubbling caused by over-proofed dough, reduce the amount of fermentation.

In addition to proper proofing, it has been found that reducing the amount of water in a dough formula can help with reducing bubbling when dealing with the under-proofed type. The reduction in moisture aids in creating the pinpoint holes in the cells walls.

EDIY (2/1/2013): For an alternative to the Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm

« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 01:06:08 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline bortz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2005, 08:54:17 PM »
So the amount of rising (proofing) is the main difference maker. 
I have to go back and re-read that site. It's like the bible of pizza making.

Offline DKM

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2005, 11:05:32 PM »
First, let me say that we all learn by trial and error. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Something that is true about all parts of life.

This board is for learning.  I have been making pizza since 1989.  You name it, I've done it when it comes to pizza.

But you know what?  I am a wannabee.  I wannabee better, I want to know more, to understand new things.

DKM
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