Author Topic: I want larger voids!!! HELP!  (Read 12174 times)

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Offline pizzabill

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I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« on: February 22, 2005, 05:37:19 PM »
Ok, this has been driving me nuts...  For weeks I've been trying different things to change the density of my crust edge and nothing has worked. What are the variables that effect the size of voids?

I've tried the following:
1. Varying final dough temp
2. Allow a room temp rise before retarding
3. Many different amounts of water
4. Amount of yeast

I still get tiny bubbles in the outer crust rather than nice, quarter or nickel sized voids. Do any of you have suggestions?

You can see the voids I'm getting on my site: www.pizzamaniac.com/images/012905c.jpg

Thanks ahead of time...

-PizzaBill


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Offline duckjob

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2005, 07:34:50 PM »
Just out of curiosity, how do you shape your dough.  I've found that as long as I handle the dough alright when I toss and shape it that regardless of the yeast content, I can get decent sized air pockets in the crust.  I would say most are in the 1/4" and 1/2" diameter range, but it definately doesn't have that bread like texture to it. Also  before I prepare a pizza I'll usually let it sit on the counter for 1-2 hours. Hope this helps.

Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2005, 08:40:04 PM »
You're not using a rolling pin, are you?  ;)
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2005, 08:42:37 PM »
Pizzabill,

In my experience, the best way to get large holes in a pizza crust is to use a high hydration dough (depending on the style of dough you are trying to make), and to handle the dough as little as possible so as not to deflate the dough and degass it. This rules out using a rolling pin. If you have ever made a ciabatta bread or witnessed someone who has, you will note two things: the hydration is super high (over 70 percent) and there is virtually no handling of the dough except through the use of a dough scraper. Most people panic when they see how wet the dough is and start adding flour to make it drier. That usually is a big mistake and results in a poor product, without the desired large holes. But, when it is done right, the ciabatta has very large holes of irregular size and shape. I think the same principles apply to dough when it is desired to have a pizza crust that is open and airy with a lot of holes.

My recollection from visiting your site is that you use a bread machine a lot. As you may know if you have read about my experiences with using a bread machine to make the Lehmann NY style pizza dough (see, for example, Reply #51 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.40.html), I am not a particular fan of bread machines. I think they do a better job of making bread dough than pizza dough. Yet, I try to keep an open mind and to ever be hopeful of figuring out a way to make a good pizza dough using a bread machine, and especially so since I own a Zo machine that just sits around most of the time doing nothing. I concluded that you have to use the machine in a certain way to minimize heat buildup and minimize overkneading (which usually results in a tight, closed crumb), and, to this end, I suggested some ways in the above-referenced post that might be used to do this. I have meant to follow my own suggestions but have been remiss in doing so. I will have to add that experiment to my pizza "to do" list.

I don't think that finished dough temperature or amount of yeast is the problem, even though I try to keep the finished dough temperature around 80 degrees F. The Lehmann NY style dough can use as little as 1/8-1/4 t. IDY and, if the hydration is high enough (I usually shoot for around 63%), it will produce a light, open and airy crust. For a NY style dough, like the Lehmann dough, I do not recommend letting the dough rise before retarding, since that makes the dough act more like an insulator and is harder to cool down, and especially so if a lot of yeast is used. Although I don't do it with my Lehmann NY style doughs, you might consider letting your shaped dough rise for about 20 minutes before dressing. That should help create a more open and airy crust, but it may also make the crust soft and more bread-like rather than chewy.

Peter

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2005, 09:21:11 PM »
Ok, thanks guys - now were talkin'!!

Duckjob, I am pretty careful when shaping - I particularly avoid the rim so I'm pretty sure that's not it.

Steve, I only use a roller for thin dough - so that can't be it.

Peter, I think you are definitely on to something. It very well could be the bread machine. I hadn't thought of that and I didn't read your thread about it (a search for "voids" didn't come up with much). It mixes slow for about 5 minutes, then takes off like a boat propeller!  It is very possible that this is ruining my cell structure.

I will go back and read your referenced thread in detail. Hopefully, I will have a chance to validate your theories. If not, I'll have to talk my wife into needing a mixer!

Thanks all for the quick response. Where else can you ask a tough question after work and get the answer in time to make dough that night?!?

-PizzaBill
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Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2005, 09:33:58 PM »
I was thinking this board might have other real pizza makers on it but I see that it is populated with wannabees. The thing you are missing is the basic chemistry and micro biology that is the art of dough.

Learn how yeast works on protien and gluten then the anwser is simple. Need to know more?
Any great pizza maker would not post his trade secrets to any public board.

I do private consultation work for those who want to save years of trial and ERROR. Contact me at admin@homespunpizza.com if you are interested in the real deal.

Ps It does not matter if you make your dough by hand in a well on a table in a bread machien or a 120 quart hobart mixer. It is chemistry not machanics at play here.
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Offline duckjob

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2005, 10:19:38 PM »
bubba, there is no need to insult the people on this board. If you don't have anything constructive/informative to say, don't bother posting.

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2005, 11:48:33 PM »
You are probably right. I'm sorry if have offended. I shall never darken your door again!
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Offline Trinity

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 05:39:10 AM »
"wannabees",,,, ::) ???

Must have not taken the time to dig through the fourms. ;)


"wannabees",,, ROFL ;D
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Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2005, 07:45:57 AM »

I do private consultation work for those who want to save years of trial and ERROR. Contact me at admin@homespunpizza.com if you are interested in the real deal.


Thanks, Bubba, but we actually ENJOY the trail and error. We also enjoy SHARING our experiences with each other. That's the whole point to a community site like this. It always nice to have "Great" pizza makers here, and there are plenty of those! But frankly greatness comes with respect which comes from generosity and a willingness to share and encourage those who are not at your level.

For what it's worth, some of the most famous bakers in the world are quite open about their gifts. Good luck with your consulting business and thanks for the hints.

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Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2005, 09:29:19 AM »
I was thinking this board might have other real pizza makers on it but I see that it is populated with wannabees. The thing you are missing is the basic chemistry and micro biology that is the art of dough.

Learn how yeast works on protien and gluten then the anwser is simple. Need to know more? Any great pizza maker would not post his trade secrets to any public board.

Ps It does not matter if you make your dough by hand in a well on a table in a bread machien or a 120 quart hobart mixer. It is chemistry not machanics at play here.

First, let me say that we all learn by trial and error. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Are you saying that as a "real pizza maker" you were born with this knowledge?

Why would you even bother coming to this site (or any site) to discuss pizza making since apparently you already know everything there is to know about making pizza?

Perhaps you came here simply to ridicule us for trying to learn (by trial and error) since no "great pizza makers" would ever dare help us.

If you'd care to eat humble pie (pun intended), we'd love to have you as an active member of the forum.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 12:29:02 PM by Steve »
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Offline brianc

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2005, 11:18:53 AM »
Talk about timing.  I was just thinking this morning that I'd like to up the hydration in my dough to get more large voids, especially in the rim.  So my question is, with a more hydrated dough, will I be tossing it out and topping it when it is sticky, or should I still rub down the outside with flour/cornmeal/etc. before that?

Brian

Online Pete-zza

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2005, 11:40:38 AM »
brianc,

A high hydration dough will often be quite extensible and, depending on what happens to it during refrigeration, can be a bit moist. So, I advise dusting the dough ball with a light amount of flour on both sides once you flatten it to start the shaping process. I have found it far easier to toss a more elastic dough than an extensible one, which can get away from you if you are not careful and possibly create thin spots near the center of the dough. Most of the time I just use my knuckles to stretch the dough out to the desired diameter and use my fingers for any final finishing touches. And I make sure there is enough flour (or you can use corn meal if you prefer) on the peel to be sure that the dough doesn't stick during dressing and peeling into the oven.

Peter

Offline bortz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2005, 11:43:13 AM »
I'd like to submit that not using a rolling pin can make larger voids as stated earlier BUT if you must use a rolling pin, you can get some of the voids by letting the dough rise  before topping it.  I just did some experiments with this concept and a dough that rises on the pan (provided it has enough life left in it to even rise after it's been retarded) after it has been rolled with a pin, can indeed have voids in it but not big voids if you use the pin on it, top it and pop it in the oven immediately.  I've tried different moisture contents and that doesn't have as much of a difference on void size as dough compression.  I've tried differing amounts of yeast (as some remember from an earlier post I did on this subject). I went from my usual 2 tsp. of ADY to 1 tsp. (1 tsp. is what I used for trial purposes- my usual is 2 tsp.) and that had little effect on hole size and really changed the crust taste substantially. I think the dough taste change was due to keeping the sugar content the same while using less yeast.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 11:46:06 AM by bortz »

Offline bortz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2005, 11:49:59 AM »
I forgot to mention that somebody on here suggested that void size is also an effect of oven temperature.  This is true, as I have also found from more experiments.   

Offline bortz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2005, 01:35:21 PM »


Contact me at admin@homespunpizza.com if you are interested in the real deal.


You haven't posted anything to lead one to believe you are anything but a wannabe yourself.  Pictures are worth a thousand words. Do you have any of yourself with your finished product?

Offline pftaylor

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2005, 01:39:55 PM »
Everytime I look at bubba's picture with the big disc I think size apparently doesn't matter...
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Offline LeeB

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2005, 01:57:19 PM »
I was thinking this board might have other real pizza makers on it but I see that it is populated with wannabees. The thing you are missing is the basic chemistry and micro biology that is the art of dough.


Just plain RUDE.......

I've been plenty happy whith the responses from the people that post on this board and will continue to listen and learn.

Offline bortz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2005, 02:12:03 PM »
Everytime I look at bubba's picture with the big disc I think size apparently doesn't matter...

I think he photoshopped the UFO picture from Roswell with a picture of his kitchen.  ;D  Now why didn't I think of that..... :D

Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2005, 02:37:31 PM »
Now, now, guys. Unlike our guest, we must show some civility here.

I for one hope that Bubba eats some humble pie and decides to share his tricks of the trade with us.

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