Author Topic: I want larger voids!!! HELP!  (Read 12175 times)

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Offline JAG

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2005, 03:07:11 PM »
Steve,
         I would like to say I am very impressed with your self control. When Bubba mentioned that no real pizziaolo would post their recipe, I was crushed, and I am ready to hang up my peel and stone. All this time I believed in Tom Lehmann, Big Dave, and Tony Gemignani, but since they have made public their recipes, they must not be the "real deal".
         Bubba maybe we could trade notes on micro biology, I work with nano structures and would be interested to see some of your reports, studies and findings (I'm sure you are a few steps ahead of the aforementioned pizza guys). I have a real nifty SEM (that would be a Scanning Electron Microscope) that takes some nice pix at about 30K resolution.
         Hey bubba maybe you shouldn't quit your day job just yet.

JAG


Offline duckjob

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2005, 03:39:06 PM »
Got a slice picture that kinda shows off the air bubbles. I used Pete's adaptation of  Tom Lehmanns NY style with 2-1/2 cups of flour and a tsp of IDY and 3/4 cup of water.

http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/tomlehmannslice.jpeg

Not the best digital pic I've ever taken, but you get the idea.

Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2005, 04:05:44 PM »
Taken from the Encyclopizza dough troubleshooting guide
http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730480



31 - Crust forms bubbles during baking
 

Possible Causes
  

Remedy    
 
Dough under-proofed (i.e., under-risen)          
 Use more-risen dough for making pizza. See the previous section on Under-risen Dough Balls. Also, read the chapter on Dough Manage­ment.
 
Dough over-proofed
(i.e., over-risen)
 Use less-risen dough for making pizza. See the previous section on Over-risen Dough Balls. Also, read the chapter on Dough Management.
 
High percentage of water in dough formula
 Reduce the water portion in the dough formula by 2 to 4 percent of flour weight. This can help reduce the presence of super-large (pita-bread style) bubbles.
 
COMMENT: Most bubbling problems are caused by under-proofed dough. For top quality crust, the recommended way to reduce bubbling is use optimally proofed dough—neither under-risen nor over-risen. However sometimes that’s not always possible. In emer­gency cases, when dough is under-proofed, perforate the rolled dough using a dough docker. However, docking has the effect of creating a very flat crust. So unless you desire a flat crust, docking should only be used as a last resort. Other methods of (possibly) reducing bubbles include (a) assem­bling the pizza with the soft bottom side of the dough facing up, and (b) using a slightly longer bake time and lower tempera­ture. Because crust bubbling is a universal concern among pizze­rias, the following special discussion is provided.

Discussion: Crust Bubbling
Dough/crust bubbling is a problem that has plagued pizzerias for decades. Of course, not all pizzerias consi­der it a problem. Some actually like bubbles because they feel their customers like them. However, many operators abhor bubbles, especially the large kind that move cheese and toppings off an entire slice or, worse yet, off half the pizza.  

To eliminate bubbles it helps to know what happens during baking. Here’s how it works. Dough contains thousand of air cells created during fermentation or proofing. These air cells are separated from one another by cell walls. At the onset of baking, the air cells expand slightly due to a burst of yeast activity, a process called oven spring. Following oven spring, the starch in the cell walls gelatinizes, or absorbs surrounding moisture. Gelatinization, in turn, causes the protein (i.e., gluten) in the cell walls to lose moisture. The reduction of moisture in the protein causes it to retract and become less elastic. This results in pinpoint holes forming in the cell walls. Following that, the protein coagulates and, thereby, firms up—giving the crust its firm cellular structure. Following coagu­la­tion, steam develops in the cells and vents out the pinpoint holes and, eventually, out the top of the crust. To see evidence of where steam vents out the top of the crust, scrape away the cheese and sauce from a properly proofed, properly baked pizza and you’ll see many small holes in the top of the crust, which served as steam vents.

For the pinpoint holes to form in the cell walls, the walls must be of the proper thickness and contain the proper amount of moisture. When dough is improperly proofed—that is, either under-risen or over-risen—the cell walls are of the “wrong” thickness. In under-proofed dough they are too thick. In over-proofed dough they are too thin.

When holes fail to form in the cell walls, the steam generated during baking cannot dissipate properly from the cells. As a result, it builds up within each cell, forcing the cell upward and eventually ripping the cell walls. In effect, instead of dissipating through an open cellular network and out the top of the crust, as happens with properly proofed dough, the steam rips open the cellular structure in a chain reaction—rupturing one cell wall after another and, eventually, forming one large cell.

There’s a difference between bubbles formed from under-proofing versus over-proofing. Bubbles from under-proofing tend to be flat but large in diameter. If unpopped, they can blow up an entire pizza. This is the process by which pita or pocket bread is made. Bubbles from over-proofing tend to be high but smaller in diameter. They rise up like little ping-pong balls and eventually form a hole at the top, at which time they stop expanding. They almost always burn. Most pizza bubbling problems are of the under-proofed type.  

To resolve a bubbling problem, dough fermentation must be adjusted accordingly. To stop bubbling caused by under-proofed dough, increase the amount of fermenta­tion. To stop bubbling caused by over-proofed dough, reduce the amount of fermentation.

In addition to proper proofing, it has been found that reducing the amount of water in a dough formula can help with reducing bubbling when dealing with the under-proofed type. The reduction in moisture aids in creating the pinpoint holes in the cells walls.

EDIY (2/1/2013): For an alternative to the Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm

« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 01:06:08 PM by Pete-zza »
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Offline bortz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2005, 08:54:17 PM »
So the amount of rising (proofing) is the main difference maker. 
I have to go back and re-read that site. It's like the bible of pizza making.

Offline DKM

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2005, 11:05:32 PM »
First, let me say that we all learn by trial and error. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Something that is true about all parts of life.

This board is for learning.  I have been making pizza since 1989.  You name it, I've done it when it comes to pizza.

But you know what?  I am a wannabee.  I wannabee better, I want to know more, to understand new things.

DKM
I'm on too many of these boards

Offline LeeB

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2005, 08:34:02 AM »

But you know what?  I am a wannabee.  I wannabee better, I want to know more, to understand new things.

DKM

Well said my Pizza Brother...... ;D

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2005, 06:49:33 PM »
Ok I think a little background is in order here. I have been in the business side of the pizza trade most of my life. I predate pizza makeup tables, granulated yeast and corrugated pizza boxes. I pioneered pizza delivery.

The picture attached again in case anyone missed it is an untouched image from a newspaper artical on pizza. The dough weight is 24 ounces. My best is 32 ounces of dough stretched to about 14 feet. Yes you can see thru it when it is that thin and you have to stand on a table or let it sweep the floor as you throw it
This is for expose to amaze the public and not to eat anyway. Besides there is no oven large enough to hold a pie that size.

My best time from dough ball to 16 inch pepperoni in the oven is 11.5 seconds. This was in response to Tom Mahan founder of dominoes bragging on the Letterman Show that he was the fastest pizza maker on earth. He is no slouch at 33.5 seconds.  I was much younger then and cut a tape of my own for Latenight and I guess it is still in their vault. That is why I spin the dough is to let centrifugal force do the work as I am basicly lazy and my arms would get tired after pulling dough for 10 to 12 hours a shift. I can produce 40 to 60 pizzas an hour at a steady rate with the help of one oven tender.


We food service workers are the real counter culture. You play when we work, we play when you sleep, we sleep when you work and we often work behind a counter too. When we go out to play there is no one their to serve us.  Remember we close and then clean the bars restaurants and theaters then go home. No social life or cultural support for us. This might explain why some may say I am RUDE! I think you hurt my feeling. I do have one somewhere and when I find it I'll see if it is hurt or not.

It is that,  or the fact that I have not had a ciggerette in 12 days and I would love to eviscerate something just for the fun of it.  If I offended anyone with the term wannabes I am sorry. 
I really did not know that the term was an insult.

Anyway I keep a little shop for the fun of it and to keep the locals from surrounding my place with torches in the middle of the night and burning me out. I had two shops here with 200 seats and 28 employees.
I closed them and have been pestered back into this small venue by popular demand.

Any Questions!

Pizza making is only one of my culinary skill sets.

Chef Charles "Bubba" Kuhn




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Offline wayno

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2005, 07:06:24 PM »
Bubba,

Congratulations on staying off cigs for 12 days.!  ;D

Wayno
At night, I either sleep, make love or dream about making pizza.

Offline DKM

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2005, 08:10:39 PM »
Any Questions!



Yes, are you here to add to the fun and talk, or promote yourself?

I'm impressed by some of the things on your " resume' ", can match some, can beat some.  So what?

If you want to add to the fun, we'd love to have you.  If your here to talk yourself up....
I'm on too many of these boards

Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2005, 09:38:19 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Bubba!  8)

No insults taken. The purpose of this website and forum is to teach and learn. I hope that it offers both to you.

Steve
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Liz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2005, 04:05:23 PM »
I think he photoshopped the UFO picture from Roswell with a picture of his kitchen.  ;D  Now why didn't I think of that..... :D

Wanted to let you all know, this is NOT a doctored picture...i have watched my papa spin pizza since i have been old enough to remember! All i gotta say, is keep on spinning pop and I love ya  ;)

take care all :)

Liz

and p.s.

Papa, Congrats for kicking a 30 year habit, i am so proud of ya!

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2005, 03:56:59 PM »
If we can get back to voids for a question...

I've been at this for a few weeks now and I thought I was making progress, now not so sure. I changed a bunch of things that I thought would affect the lack of voids I was experiencing in my crust rim. Here's a quick summary:

Using Pete-zza's modified lehmann recipe
Pilsbury Hi-Gluten flour
1 tsp yeast
Minimal mixing/kneading
Approx 80 degree final dough temp
Ball directly into refrigerator, lid off of container for 1 hour
1-2 hour bench rise before shaping
minimal dough handling during shaping, not touching rim
screen bake @ 480 degrees

I'm attaching a photo showing the difference between Pete-zza's rim voids and mine. I am pretty much out of ideas! Does anyone see anything that I should be doing differently to acheive those big, beautiful open holes in my crust??

Could brand of flour actually make this sort of difference?

Thanks in advance.

-PizzaBill


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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2005, 04:56:09 PM »
Pizzabill,

First of all, I wish I could take credit for the great looking rim in the upper right hand quadrant of your photos. That crust came from a pizza made by fellow member, Giotto, and was posted in Reply #87, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.80.html. On occasion, I have gone back to that thread and it is a goldmine of good advice on pizza making.

That aside, it looks like you have been doing all the right things. I do have a few questions, however. Pillsbury has a high-gluten flour called Balancer. Is that the one you are using? Second, what are you using to knead the dough? Third, what hydration percent are you using? Fourth, are you weighing the flour and water? And, last, are you baking on a screen or a stone?

One of the things that Giotto did was to parbake his dough on a pizza screen before adding toppings. I don't do that myself, but I suspect the theory is that the oven spring will be greater and create larger bubbles as a result. That approach is discussed in the above Reply #87 and may be worth considering. Another possibility is to bake the pizza at a higher temperature. I sometimes use different temperatures in baking on screens and stones.

Peter

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2005, 05:10:46 PM »
Giotto - sorry for the lack of proper credit for a great looking pie!

Peter - here's the answers to your questions:

1. Yes, the Pilsbury flour is "balancer Hi Gluten Flour"
2. I use the slow speed on my bread maker to combine the ingredients
3. The hydration percentage I used last time was 65%
4. I have been weighing both water and flour
5. I've been using a screen

Thanks for the quick reply!

-PizzaBill

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2005, 05:47:13 PM »
PizzaBill,

I have not personally used the Pillsbury Balancer flour (I use mostly the KASL) but I don't think that is the cause of your tight crumb. My recollection is that Giotto was using a Giusto high-gluten flour or possibly a Mondako or similar pizza flour.

More recently, I have been using 63% hydration, but I don't think that the higher hydration is the cause either. If anything, the crumb might be more open at 65%.

If I had to guess, I would say that the bread machine may be the problem, or possibly the way you have been baking the pizza. Just looking at the photo of your rim, I suspected that you might have used a bread machine, especially since I was aware that you rely on such a machine quite a bit in making pizza dough. However, since you have mastered the use of the bread machine for making pizza dough, I'm hesitant to tell you that the machine is the source of the problem. After all, you did achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, which is hard to do with most bread machines.  Did you have to do anything special to achieve that finished dough temperature? And, how long was the knead time? Unfortunately, the only way I know to rule out the bread machine is to use a stand mixer, or hand kneading a test dough, although doing the latter will tax your arm strength.

The only other possibility I can think of is that you might try using a higher bake temperature, or use a stone that has been preheated to about 500-550 degrees F for about an hour. A pizza on a screen is heated by the ambient air and conduction through the metal of the screen, whereas a properly heated stone conveys pretty much the maximum heat directly to the pizza, and may result in better oven spring and a more open and airy rim in the crust.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 05:58:47 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2005, 11:48:25 PM »
Peter,

I think I have to answer for myself whether the breadmaker is killing my sell structure or not. The next batch of dough I make I will be kneading by hand! I think that is likely to be the reason for what I'm seeing.

I've used the bread machine for about a year now for every batch of pizza dough that I've made. In the begining, I would let the dough mix for up to 30 minutes which is when the machine stops by itself. Lately, I've been only mixing until the dough ball looks like its developed. This takes 7-10 minutes depending on the dough recipe. My bread machine goes slow for about 4  minutes, then fast for the remaining 26 minutes.  To get that dough temp, I used water that was about 70 degrees. That means that my bread maker raises the dough temp by about 9 degrees within the first ten minutes. I wasn't measuring temp in my older trials, so I don't know if the continued friction would cause it to go even higher after the first 10 minutes.

You identified 2 other variables - oven temp and stone vs. screen. I've baked many pies on my stone prior to getting hooked on the ease of prep that comes with screen baking. I might have to try and rule that out as well. If exposure to high oven temperatures within the first minutes of baking plays a rule in the voids, either of these could make a difference. I will have to try both if hand kneading does not work.

Thanks again for the feedback.

-PizzaBill
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Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2005, 12:02:09 AM »
Peter - I just went back to the thread you referenced and took this link:

http://www.progressivebaker.com/class/section1.htm

I believe more than ever that it is the bread maker! I can't to conduct a hand mix experiment.  ;)

-PizzaBill
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2005, 12:19:42 AM »
PizzaBill,

When I tried my Zo bread machine to make pizza dough, I was amazed how much frictional heat the machine produced. That is what led me to the idea of using ice cold water and short knead times. I would still like to test the idea out sometime.

Good luck with your attempt at hand kneading. KA usually recommeds against hand kneading the KASL. You might try making a small dough ball, say, enough to made a 12-14 inch pizza.

Peter

Offline brianc

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2005, 03:08:30 PM »
Since I don't have the money or space for a mixer (and I really don't need it), I always hand-knead my dough.  I've been working on increasing the size and amount of my voids for a bit now.  In my latest batch, I upped the hydration level (sorry, no percents-- I just eyeballed it) and also tried to spend as little time as possible shaping the dough.  As soon as it was near 14", I stopped.  I've found that the longer I shape, the more air I force out.  I also let it rise in the fridge beforehand for probably 72 hours, since I made two balls, and this was the second one I ate.

The results were quite nice.  The rim was large and airy, and the rest of the crust had a lot of smaller pockets.  I just got my Soehnle Vera scale today, so next time I make dough, I'll try to remember to post my hydration level.

Offline snowdy

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2005, 02:31:17 AM »
bill..

i dont know if this will help...

but i use a variant of your boli dough and love it... i scaled back the salt some though.

i made 2 pizzas tonight and 1 had a lot of voids while the other had hardly any. I use a kitchen aid mixer only... the dough i did on a higher speed ended up being the dough with very nice voids.

the post:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1014.0.html
« Last Edit: March 05, 2005, 02:32:59 AM by snowdy »


 

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