Author Topic: I want larger voids!!! HELP!  (Read 12604 times)

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Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2005, 11:22:34 PM »
Well, I finally hand mixed a Lehmann NY Stlye batch in order to know if it was the bread maker or not! Unfortunately I didn't get to bake it until about 40 hours had passed. Here are some photos of the dough at various stages. I'm hoping maybe some folks who are acheiving good voids can tell me if my dough looks like it should (especially on the bench).

I think the rim improved, but it's still not near as open as some others in this thread. I can't rule out the bread machine as the cause, but at this point I'm not ready to blame it either.

(http://www.pizzamaniac.com/images/030605a.jpg)

(http://www.pizzamaniac.com/images/030605c.jpg)


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Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2005, 08:08:13 AM »
Let's see, you've tried different recipes, different flours, different mixing/kneading techniques and still no large voids. Have you tried using different water? Perhaps there's something in your water that's causing the cell structure to vent the trapped steam?
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Offline Randy

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2005, 10:30:57 AM »
Like this?

Offline rawcalls

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2005, 01:37:47 PM »
I would try the higher oven temp next.  Around 550 degrees and maybe go back to a stone instead of the screen. 

Offline traar

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2005, 03:00:40 PM »
Hi folks.  I'm brand new to this forum (though I have consulted it numerous times in the past).   :)

PizzaBill--I really enjoy checking your website.  I feel almost as if I've met you after having read your journals.  Also, your site got me to try making stromboli, which led to this gem on the first try (Thanks!).

Anyway, it looks like you've made some improvements to the crumb, though not to the extent you'd like.  Consider this as another set of variables:  Salt (quantity, type, when you add it).  I've been trying to learn more about bread baking during the last year, and Peter Reinhart's book (The Breadbaker's Apprentice) has been really enlightening.  During this time, I've learned many things about fermentation...and I have much more to learn!  I understand that salt inhibits the growth of yeast, and I did some experimenting with proofing yeast.  I used to mix the yeast, salt, sugar and water all at once and leave it to proof.  I discovered that it started better with just the yeast and water alone.  Of course, having begun to study under Reinhart, I now use instant yeast, so I don't need to proof it.  I also switched to kosher salt more out of following directions than from any experimentation.  Perhaps it would make a difference if you added the salt after a few minutes of mixing.  To be honest, I am usually not disciplined about taking a scientific approach to this, which may be why I like your site so much--you've been doing it for me and documenting things quite well.  Thanks for the inspiration!

Offline duckjob

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2005, 07:31:29 PM »
I would say try cooking on the stone, as hot as you can get it. I consistently get larger voids when cooking directly on the stone, compared to the same dough on a screen. I used to cook on a screen in a preheated oven at 500 degrees for about 7 minutes, and then 1 or 2 directly on the stone. Now using a Lehmann NY dough with a 65% hydration percentage, I preheat the oven to 550(as high as it will go) for 1 hour, then turn the broiler on a couple minutes before I'm ready. I cook the pizza right on the stone for about 4 and a half minutes, and it comes out perfect. Crispy slightly chared crust and nice large voids, i think because of the heat and hydation percentage.

Brian

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2005, 09:29:43 PM »
Wow - again I am impressed with the great feedback and fast response on this forum!

First, traar, welcome to pizzamaking.com! Thanks for the kind words about pizzamaniac and that's a GREAT LOOKIN' BOLI! Glad I was able to share. Thanks for the tip on the salt - I haven't used kosher for a while, maybe I'll switch back and try adding it a bit later in the mix.

Next, randy, thanks for teasing me with your beautiful pie  ;)  ;)

Steve, you could be on to something there! I moved in July and I swear things haven't really been the same since then. I think I'll try some bottled water. Great thought.

Brian, I am getting the notion from folks that the first minute is critical to the formation of cell structure. It seems like a lot happens during this "oven spring". I'll crank up the oven and see if it makes a difference with this high-water dough.

You all have given me enough things to test for the next month or so!  I'll be busy doing a bunch of test batches and letting you know how I progress. Thanks again for all of the great feedback!

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Offline stiletto

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2005, 10:27:12 PM »
I would have to say the change that gave me large voids would definately be temperature.  I used to heat my stone and oven to only 350 degree and make good tasting, dense pizzas.  The voids eluded me.  Then I read some Steve posts, hes da man.  His expirements and tests are amazing, and I am inspired by him.  Well, that is when I learned the hotter the better, and have been getting huge voids in my wonderfully cripsy outside, doughy inside crusts.  Lately (Because I am lazy) I have been using dough balls from my local grocery stoes, and they come out very good!  I pay $1.59 and I get a 16 oz ball of dough that makes a nice 16" pizza.  I haven't made my own dough since I met pizzamaking.com, but another step up for me was using King Author bread flour, instead of just regular all purpose flour.  I think I am pretty far behind a lot of you guys, but I am at a 2 pizza per week pace now!

Offline addicted

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2005, 10:37:29 PM »
Let's see

1)use tiles
2)preheat oven for one hour 550
3)As soon as you put the pizza in turn on the broiler.(this takes practice to keep from burning)
4)After you stretch the dough, pinch the outside perimeter with you thumb and finger to make a 1/2" tall ridge.
5)One of the biggest mistakes we all make is opening the oven. If you have a window with the light it makes it easier but anytime you open the door to check the pizza, all that heat comes right out keeping the top from cooking properly.

People might have already mentioned these things so excuse me if I repeated someone else's ideas. Good luck.
Well....okay,then.

Offline Randy

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2005, 07:06:17 AM »
PizzaBill it was not ment to be a tease. ;D
Post your recipe and procedure including shaping.  It is very easy to get the large voids.
Randy


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2005, 07:09:40 PM »
I attach a picture of my friend Master Pizzamaker Ciro Salvo from Portici, near Naples.

It is one of the best example of a good cornicione:

Offline DKM

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2005, 10:30:50 AM »
That's it.  I'm trying that this weekend.  Its been to long since I have had a major Pizza weekend.

DKM
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Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2005, 12:49:01 PM »
PizzaBill it was not ment to be a tease. ;D
Post your recipe and procedure including shaping.  It is very easy to get the large voids.
Randy

Randy,

I posted the recipe/technique in this thread - Reply #31

Thanks for your input!!
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Offline BIG Daddy

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2005, 03:05:11 PM »
Traar; ;
What a great looking stromboli.  Will you share the recipe?  Crust and filling.........I have to try this; it is one of the best looking strombolis I have ever seen. :o
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Offline traar

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2005, 05:09:11 PM »
BIG Daddy,

Thanks for the compliment...I'm flattered since it was my first try at stromboli.  Of course, I now wish that I had taken pictures during assembly!  I basically used the "Boli dough" recipe from pizzabill's excellent web site www.pizzamaniac.com though I varied it based upon my available ingredients.  Go to Bill's site and click on the link at the left that is labeled "Bill's Classic Stromboli" and you will be looking at what I used for a guide.  I substituted instant yeast without changing the amount, and I used King Arthur Bread Flour.  I always use kosher salt for baking, too.  For mixing, I used my Kitchen Aid with the dough hook instead of my bread maker so the mixing time was probably 8 - 10 minutes.  I divided and refrigerated as Bill's recipe indicates.

For preparation, I followed Bill's recipe, using a rolling pin to get the 'boli dough nice and thin.  I smeared a thin layer Grey Poupon Country Style Dijon mustard all over the dough leaving a clean edge as he suggested (about an inch).  I layed on some sliced provolone and then added pepperoni, onions, italian sausage (cooked and crumbled), and banana peppers (my favorite) for toppings.  Last, I put some mozzarella over the top.  I probably followed Bill's suggested quantity for cheese, but I don't remember...I may have guess-timated that part.  Finally, I rolled it up and baked it on my stone just as he did--15 minutes at 420 degrees.  It was as good as it looks.   :)

Good luck with your stromboli and let us know how it goes.  Now you have me planning to make another one!   ;D

Tom

Offline scott r

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2005, 06:20:35 PM »
banana peppers are amazing,  That marinated, subtly spicy vinegar taste paired with a good salty topping like bacon, pepperoni, ham or fresh olives is really something else!

Offline BIG Daddy

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2005, 06:45:05 PM »
Traar;
Man oh man.........What a great recipe........What a great stromboli.  I followed your directions and recommendations 100% and my stromboli came out looking just like yours and it was delicious.  Sorry no pictures....no camera.  I recommend this recipe to everyone that enjoys this type of food.
BIG Daddy ;D ;D
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Offline giotto

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2005, 11:18:58 PM »
PizzaBill:

Sorry for any delay on your earlier interests. But you were in good hands with Pete-zza and so many others. If the dough ain't right before it goes into the oven, the end result will be an issue.  When working with New York pizza type or other thin crust, I follow these guidelines for technique to get my favorite ciabatta thin and light feel:

- I usually work with Pendelton or Giusto's, both unbleached at 13.5% and sometimes Caputo.  Chris Bianco mixes with Giusto's (like Caputo, it doesn't absorb well, so you gotta be careful and keep hydration down). In rare cases, I work with Gold Medal for bread unbleached (yellow bag).  I usually work with near 60% water hydration with Giusto's or a bit higher with Pendelton and other like absorption flours. Caputo is covered in A16 thread.
- I immediately get it in the refrigerator, inside tin (since it removes heat quickly).  Much on this in NY thread mentioned earlier.
- I use a small kitchenaid to bring it together. I never run it more than 30 seconds to 1 minute spurts for kneading, and always keep it at lowest level and complement with hand kneading in between.
- As Pete-zza suggests, the slight underkneading and handling is key for me. 
- I normally leave more of the gluten development during refrigeration, including lightly pushing it down once a day to dispose of alcohol and keep food moving. Even before the A16 session, I followed suit to this. I keep it in the refrig for 2 - 3 days.
- I let it come to room temp; but sometimes in less time than others... just over an hour sometimes.
- I'm very traditional and treat this baby like it's my first. I gently push it downward with my palm. I use my fingers, jabbing them in lightly like your making Ciabatta bread, from one end to the other.  Turn it over and I do the same again. After a quick pull on it (you know, hand near one end, hand pull on the other), I give it a quick toss and turn it in the air. I don't like to make a big cornicione in the dough (outer edge)-- that condenses it too much. The cornicione will come during cooking.
- My temp is at 550F and can range down to 530F.
- I almost always use a screen for control (I move it around the oven to get exact cooking)
- And with our lower temp ovens, I normally put the dough in the oven without any toppings for 1 minute or until I visibly see some bubbles form throughout as skin separates.  I can tell right there what I got. I want the whole darn thing to be Ciabatta like (I watch like a hawk through a lighted window).  On a friend's Kamato (strange looking beast of an outside oven), we used a heating plate, and did the pre-bake, no screen... Didn't have the window; but it came out real nice anyways.

I truly try to take the same time as the owner of Di Fara's when working with one of my pizzas. Different results though, and I like that.  Amazing he does it day in and out though.  More details as mentioned in the earlier New York post.  Does it always come out with huge holes in the cornicione? Not always.  But I always expect an overall lightweight airy nature of the crust, with huge holes along the sides with that slight crispiness and gentle hang up front.  The pre-heating is essental to me because if I get bubbles throughout the dough... I'm gonna get what I want (it's my preview).  If I get it limited, I notice something that others don't.

Ooops... did I just give away tricks of the trade again... oh that's right, it ain't a trade, it's a way to spur the American Renaissance of pizza as Reinhart commented about Tony Gemignani's recent pizza book, as noted in the book section of this site... Charge or no charge... Gotta love those who can bring it up a notch, gotta love pizzamaking.com! I sure hope this helps.

Offline giotto

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2005, 02:04:03 AM »
I forgot to mention above... I generally use Active yeast, except when developing a wild yeast.  The instant gives me no convenience, since the Active strain can be used without water as well-- bread machines suggest using active without water all the time.  I still remember when Pete-zza went to his Zo bread machine a long time ago and sure enough, no water with active yeast in its book.  I've seen it done by a Pro as well with 50lbs of flour.  In either case, I put yeast in water first to ensure it's good.  Too much of a chance for me to take.

Doesn't make any sense to me to use instant with "delayed" fermentation in mind.  Active is bad enough.  Even with the A16 thread, I switched to active yeast.  I'm simply "not" looking for instant results, and I don't see the need for my dough to rise by 50% faster as advertised in instant yeast. I'm looking for a 2 day minimum, hopefully 3 day and maybe more results. I don't want the sugar eaten... the enzymes worked hard to extract it from the starches for my taste buds and proper fermentation.  I go to great lengths to avoid sugar depletion and delay fermentation.  I use about 1/4 tsp of active yeast per 14" pizza.  Even with refrigeration, the yeast is only slowed down. My dough, like any pro dough that I sometimes purchase from a ma and pa pizzeria does not rise during refrigeration.  It loosens up; but doesn't get all bubbly or increase in size per se.   

When I read complete works by the owner of Acme bread (one of the finest natural leavening breads in the San Francisco area, out of Oakland), along with a discourse on the subject by Alice Water's (an early mentor of his in the culinary industry), I see no reason for reservations on the subject.  Of course, they use wild yeast; but they talk about the impact of commercial yeast, and active is recommended over instant. SO I'll stick with Active Yeast I suppose.  Much has been written on this subject in the past, so let's not create a whole dissertation on it.  I just wanted to let you know how I get what I get, and most importantly, why.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 02:14:04 AM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2005, 03:24:07 AM »
Oh, concerning the H2O... I love the fact that in Tony Gemignani's More than 60 Homemade Pizza book that they went as far as getting water from places like Chicago and bringing it back with them just to test the myth concerning water.  I won't dispel the results... it's a good read with incredible illustrations.  I've had some good pizzas around here and seen them use their faucets. 

As for me, I use only local mountain spring or purified drinking water.  Not distilled though.  It's like wine... if you wouldn't drink it, don't cook with it... Well I make my pizza with what I drink, and I don't drink from these pipes around here.  It's a personal preference.