Author Topic: I want larger voids!!! HELP!  (Read 13474 times)

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Offline LeeB

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2005, 08:34:02 AM »

But you know what?  I am a wannabee.  I wannabee better, I want to know more, to understand new things.

DKM

Well said my Pizza Brother...... ;D


Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2005, 06:49:33 PM »
Ok I think a little background is in order here. I have been in the business side of the pizza trade most of my life. I predate pizza makeup tables, granulated yeast and corrugated pizza boxes. I pioneered pizza delivery.

The picture attached again in case anyone missed it is an untouched image from a newspaper artical on pizza. The dough weight is 24 ounces. My best is 32 ounces of dough stretched to about 14 feet. Yes you can see thru it when it is that thin and you have to stand on a table or let it sweep the floor as you throw it
This is for expose to amaze the public and not to eat anyway. Besides there is no oven large enough to hold a pie that size.

My best time from dough ball to 16 inch pepperoni in the oven is 11.5 seconds. This was in response to Tom Mahan founder of dominoes bragging on the Letterman Show that he was the fastest pizza maker on earth. He is no slouch at 33.5 seconds.  I was much younger then and cut a tape of my own for Latenight and I guess it is still in their vault. That is why I spin the dough is to let centrifugal force do the work as I am basicly lazy and my arms would get tired after pulling dough for 10 to 12 hours a shift. I can produce 40 to 60 pizzas an hour at a steady rate with the help of one oven tender.


We food service workers are the real counter culture. You play when we work, we play when you sleep, we sleep when you work and we often work behind a counter too. When we go out to play there is no one their to serve us.  Remember we close and then clean the bars restaurants and theaters then go home. No social life or cultural support for us. This might explain why some may say I am RUDE! I think you hurt my feeling. I do have one somewhere and when I find it I'll see if it is hurt or not.

It is that,  or the fact that I have not had a ciggerette in 12 days and I would love to eviscerate something just for the fun of it.  If I offended anyone with the term wannabes I am sorry. 
I really did not know that the term was an insult.

Anyway I keep a little shop for the fun of it and to keep the locals from surrounding my place with torches in the middle of the night and burning me out. I had two shops here with 200 seats and 28 employees.
I closed them and have been pestered back into this small venue by popular demand.

Any Questions!

Pizza making is only one of my culinary skill sets.

Chef Charles "Bubba" Kuhn




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Offline wayno

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2005, 07:06:24 PM »
Bubba,

Congratulations on staying off cigs for 12 days.!  ;D

Wayno
At night, I either sleep, make love or dream about making pizza.

Offline DKM

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2005, 08:10:39 PM »
Any Questions!



Yes, are you here to add to the fun and talk, or promote yourself?

I'm impressed by some of the things on your " resume' ", can match some, can beat some.  So what?

If you want to add to the fun, we'd love to have you.  If your here to talk yourself up....
I'm on too many of these boards

Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2005, 09:38:19 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Bubba!  8)

No insults taken. The purpose of this website and forum is to teach and learn. I hope that it offers both to you.

Steve

Liz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2005, 04:05:23 PM »
I think he photoshopped the UFO picture from Roswell with a picture of his kitchen.  ;D  Now why didn't I think of that..... :D

Wanted to let you all know, this is NOT a doctored picture...i have watched my papa spin pizza since i have been old enough to remember! All i gotta say, is keep on spinning pop and I love ya  ;)

take care all :)

Liz

and p.s.

Papa, Congrats for kicking a 30 year habit, i am so proud of ya!

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2005, 03:56:59 PM »
If we can get back to voids for a question...

I've been at this for a few weeks now and I thought I was making progress, now not so sure. I changed a bunch of things that I thought would affect the lack of voids I was experiencing in my crust rim. Here's a quick summary:

Using Pete-zza's modified lehmann recipe
Pilsbury Hi-Gluten flour
1 tsp yeast
Minimal mixing/kneading
Approx 80 degree final dough temp
Ball directly into refrigerator, lid off of container for 1 hour
1-2 hour bench rise before shaping
minimal dough handling during shaping, not touching rim
screen bake @ 480 degrees

I'm attaching a photo showing the difference between Pete-zza's rim voids and mine. I am pretty much out of ideas! Does anyone see anything that I should be doing differently to acheive those big, beautiful open holes in my crust??

Could brand of flour actually make this sort of difference?

Thanks in advance.

-PizzaBill


(http://www.pizzamaniac.com/images/me_vs_petezza.jpg)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2005, 04:56:09 PM »
Pizzabill,

First of all, I wish I could take credit for the great looking rim in the upper right hand quadrant of your photos. That crust came from a pizza made by fellow member, Giotto, and was posted in Reply #87, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.80.html. On occasion, I have gone back to that thread and it is a goldmine of good advice on pizza making.

That aside, it looks like you have been doing all the right things. I do have a few questions, however. Pillsbury has a high-gluten flour called Balancer. Is that the one you are using? Second, what are you using to knead the dough? Third, what hydration percent are you using? Fourth, are you weighing the flour and water? And, last, are you baking on a screen or a stone?

One of the things that Giotto did was to parbake his dough on a pizza screen before adding toppings. I don't do that myself, but I suspect the theory is that the oven spring will be greater and create larger bubbles as a result. That approach is discussed in the above Reply #87 and may be worth considering. Another possibility is to bake the pizza at a higher temperature. I sometimes use different temperatures in baking on screens and stones.

Peter

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2005, 05:10:46 PM »
Giotto - sorry for the lack of proper credit for a great looking pie!

Peter - here's the answers to your questions:

1. Yes, the Pilsbury flour is "balancer Hi Gluten Flour"
2. I use the slow speed on my bread maker to combine the ingredients
3. The hydration percentage I used last time was 65%
4. I have been weighing both water and flour
5. I've been using a screen

Thanks for the quick reply!

-PizzaBill

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http://www.PizzaManiac.com/


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2005, 05:47:13 PM »
PizzaBill,

I have not personally used the Pillsbury Balancer flour (I use mostly the KASL) but I don't think that is the cause of your tight crumb. My recollection is that Giotto was using a Giusto high-gluten flour or possibly a Mondako or similar pizza flour.

More recently, I have been using 63% hydration, but I don't think that the higher hydration is the cause either. If anything, the crumb might be more open at 65%.

If I had to guess, I would say that the bread machine may be the problem, or possibly the way you have been baking the pizza. Just looking at the photo of your rim, I suspected that you might have used a bread machine, especially since I was aware that you rely on such a machine quite a bit in making pizza dough. However, since you have mastered the use of the bread machine for making pizza dough, I'm hesitant to tell you that the machine is the source of the problem. After all, you did achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, which is hard to do with most bread machines.  Did you have to do anything special to achieve that finished dough temperature? And, how long was the knead time? Unfortunately, the only way I know to rule out the bread machine is to use a stand mixer, or hand kneading a test dough, although doing the latter will tax your arm strength.

The only other possibility I can think of is that you might try using a higher bake temperature, or use a stone that has been preheated to about 500-550 degrees F for about an hour. A pizza on a screen is heated by the ambient air and conduction through the metal of the screen, whereas a properly heated stone conveys pretty much the maximum heat directly to the pizza, and may result in better oven spring and a more open and airy rim in the crust.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 05:58:47 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2005, 11:48:25 PM »
Peter,

I think I have to answer for myself whether the breadmaker is killing my sell structure or not. The next batch of dough I make I will be kneading by hand! I think that is likely to be the reason for what I'm seeing.

I've used the bread machine for about a year now for every batch of pizza dough that I've made. In the begining, I would let the dough mix for up to 30 minutes which is when the machine stops by itself. Lately, I've been only mixing until the dough ball looks like its developed. This takes 7-10 minutes depending on the dough recipe. My bread machine goes slow for about 4  minutes, then fast for the remaining 26 minutes.  To get that dough temp, I used water that was about 70 degrees. That means that my bread maker raises the dough temp by about 9 degrees within the first ten minutes. I wasn't measuring temp in my older trials, so I don't know if the continued friction would cause it to go even higher after the first 10 minutes.

You identified 2 other variables - oven temp and stone vs. screen. I've baked many pies on my stone prior to getting hooked on the ease of prep that comes with screen baking. I might have to try and rule that out as well. If exposure to high oven temperatures within the first minutes of baking plays a rule in the voids, either of these could make a difference. I will have to try both if hand kneading does not work.

Thanks again for the feedback.

-PizzaBill
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http://www.PizzaManiac.com/

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2005, 12:02:09 AM »
Peter - I just went back to the thread you referenced and took this link:

http://www.progressivebaker.com/class/section1.htm

I believe more than ever that it is the bread maker! I can't to conduct a hand mix experiment.  ;)

-PizzaBill
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http://www.PizzaManiac.com/

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2005, 12:19:42 AM »
PizzaBill,

When I tried my Zo bread machine to make pizza dough, I was amazed how much frictional heat the machine produced. That is what led me to the idea of using ice cold water and short knead times. I would still like to test the idea out sometime.

Good luck with your attempt at hand kneading. KA usually recommeds against hand kneading the KASL. You might try making a small dough ball, say, enough to made a 12-14 inch pizza.

Peter

Offline brianc

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2005, 03:08:30 PM »
Since I don't have the money or space for a mixer (and I really don't need it), I always hand-knead my dough.  I've been working on increasing the size and amount of my voids for a bit now.  In my latest batch, I upped the hydration level (sorry, no percents-- I just eyeballed it) and also tried to spend as little time as possible shaping the dough.  As soon as it was near 14", I stopped.  I've found that the longer I shape, the more air I force out.  I also let it rise in the fridge beforehand for probably 72 hours, since I made two balls, and this was the second one I ate.

The results were quite nice.  The rim was large and airy, and the rest of the crust had a lot of smaller pockets.  I just got my Soehnle Vera scale today, so next time I make dough, I'll try to remember to post my hydration level.

Offline snowdy

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2005, 02:31:17 AM »
bill..

i dont know if this will help...

but i use a variant of your boli dough and love it... i scaled back the salt some though.

i made 2 pizzas tonight and 1 had a lot of voids while the other had hardly any. I use a kitchen aid mixer only... the dough i did on a higher speed ended up being the dough with very nice voids.

the post:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1014.0.html
« Last Edit: March 05, 2005, 02:32:59 AM by snowdy »

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2005, 11:22:34 PM »
Well, I finally hand mixed a Lehmann NY Stlye batch in order to know if it was the bread maker or not! Unfortunately I didn't get to bake it until about 40 hours had passed. Here are some photos of the dough at various stages. I'm hoping maybe some folks who are acheiving good voids can tell me if my dough looks like it should (especially on the bench).

I think the rim improved, but it's still not near as open as some others in this thread. I can't rule out the bread machine as the cause, but at this point I'm not ready to blame it either.

(http://www.pizzamaniac.com/images/030605a.jpg)

(http://www.pizzamaniac.com/images/030605c.jpg)


-PizzaBill
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Offline Steve

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2005, 08:08:13 AM »
Let's see, you've tried different recipes, different flours, different mixing/kneading techniques and still no large voids. Have you tried using different water? Perhaps there's something in your water that's causing the cell structure to vent the trapped steam?


Offline Randy

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2005, 10:30:57 AM »
Like this?

Offline rawcalls

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2005, 01:37:47 PM »
I would try the higher oven temp next.  Around 550 degrees and maybe go back to a stone instead of the screen. 

Offline traar

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2005, 03:00:40 PM »
Hi folks.  I'm brand new to this forum (though I have consulted it numerous times in the past).   :)

PizzaBill--I really enjoy checking your website.  I feel almost as if I've met you after having read your journals.  Also, your site got me to try making stromboli, which led to this gem on the first try (Thanks!).

Anyway, it looks like you've made some improvements to the crumb, though not to the extent you'd like.  Consider this as another set of variables:  Salt (quantity, type, when you add it).  I've been trying to learn more about bread baking during the last year, and Peter Reinhart's book (The Breadbaker's Apprentice) has been really enlightening.  During this time, I've learned many things about fermentation...and I have much more to learn!  I understand that salt inhibits the growth of yeast, and I did some experimenting with proofing yeast.  I used to mix the yeast, salt, sugar and water all at once and leave it to proof.  I discovered that it started better with just the yeast and water alone.  Of course, having begun to study under Reinhart, I now use instant yeast, so I don't need to proof it.  I also switched to kosher salt more out of following directions than from any experimentation.  Perhaps it would make a difference if you added the salt after a few minutes of mixing.  To be honest, I am usually not disciplined about taking a scientific approach to this, which may be why I like your site so much--you've been doing it for me and documenting things quite well.  Thanks for the inspiration!

Offline duckjob

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2005, 07:31:29 PM »
I would say try cooking on the stone, as hot as you can get it. I consistently get larger voids when cooking directly on the stone, compared to the same dough on a screen. I used to cook on a screen in a preheated oven at 500 degrees for about 7 minutes, and then 1 or 2 directly on the stone. Now using a Lehmann NY dough with a 65% hydration percentage, I preheat the oven to 550(as high as it will go) for 1 hour, then turn the broiler on a couple minutes before I'm ready. I cook the pizza right on the stone for about 4 and a half minutes, and it comes out perfect. Crispy slightly chared crust and nice large voids, i think because of the heat and hydation percentage.

Brian

Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2005, 09:29:43 PM »
Wow - again I am impressed with the great feedback and fast response on this forum!

First, traar, welcome to pizzamaking.com! Thanks for the kind words about pizzamaniac and that's a GREAT LOOKIN' BOLI! Glad I was able to share. Thanks for the tip on the salt - I haven't used kosher for a while, maybe I'll switch back and try adding it a bit later in the mix.

Next, randy, thanks for teasing me with your beautiful pie  ;)  ;)

Steve, you could be on to something there! I moved in July and I swear things haven't really been the same since then. I think I'll try some bottled water. Great thought.

Brian, I am getting the notion from folks that the first minute is critical to the formation of cell structure. It seems like a lot happens during this "oven spring". I'll crank up the oven and see if it makes a difference with this high-water dough.

You all have given me enough things to test for the next month or so!  I'll be busy doing a bunch of test batches and letting you know how I progress. Thanks again for all of the great feedback!

-PizzaBill

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Offline stiletto

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2005, 10:27:12 PM »
I would have to say the change that gave me large voids would definately be temperature.  I used to heat my stone and oven to only 350 degree and make good tasting, dense pizzas.  The voids eluded me.  Then I read some Steve posts, hes da man.  His expirements and tests are amazing, and I am inspired by him.  Well, that is when I learned the hotter the better, and have been getting huge voids in my wonderfully cripsy outside, doughy inside crusts.  Lately (Because I am lazy) I have been using dough balls from my local grocery stoes, and they come out very good!  I pay $1.59 and I get a 16 oz ball of dough that makes a nice 16" pizza.  I haven't made my own dough since I met pizzamaking.com, but another step up for me was using King Author bread flour, instead of just regular all purpose flour.  I think I am pretty far behind a lot of you guys, but I am at a 2 pizza per week pace now!

Offline addicted

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2005, 10:37:29 PM »
Let's see

1)use tiles
2)preheat oven for one hour 550
3)As soon as you put the pizza in turn on the broiler.(this takes practice to keep from burning)
4)After you stretch the dough, pinch the outside perimeter with you thumb and finger to make a 1/2" tall ridge.
5)One of the biggest mistakes we all make is opening the oven. If you have a window with the light it makes it easier but anytime you open the door to check the pizza, all that heat comes right out keeping the top from cooking properly.

People might have already mentioned these things so excuse me if I repeated someone else's ideas. Good luck.
Well....okay,then.

Offline Randy

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2005, 07:06:17 AM »
PizzaBill it was not ment to be a tease. ;D
Post your recipe and procedure including shaping.  It is very easy to get the large voids.
Randy


 

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