Author Topic: I want larger voids!!! HELP!  (Read 13471 times)

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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2005, 07:09:40 PM »
I attach a picture of my friend Master Pizzamaker Ciro Salvo from Portici, near Naples.

It is one of the best example of a good cornicione:


Offline DKM

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2005, 10:30:50 AM »
That's it.  I'm trying that this weekend.  Its been to long since I have had a major Pizza weekend.

DKM
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Offline pizzabill

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2005, 12:49:01 PM »
PizzaBill it was not ment to be a tease. ;D
Post your recipe and procedure including shaping.  It is very easy to get the large voids.
Randy

Randy,

I posted the recipe/technique in this thread - Reply #31

Thanks for your input!!
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Offline BIG Daddy

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2005, 03:05:11 PM »
Traar; ;
What a great looking stromboli.  Will you share the recipe?  Crust and filling.........I have to try this; it is one of the best looking strombolis I have ever seen. :o
BIG Daddy
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Offline traar

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2005, 05:09:11 PM »
BIG Daddy,

Thanks for the compliment...I'm flattered since it was my first try at stromboli.  Of course, I now wish that I had taken pictures during assembly!  I basically used the "Boli dough" recipe from pizzabill's excellent web site www.pizzamaniac.com though I varied it based upon my available ingredients.  Go to Bill's site and click on the link at the left that is labeled "Bill's Classic Stromboli" and you will be looking at what I used for a guide.  I substituted instant yeast without changing the amount, and I used King Arthur Bread Flour.  I always use kosher salt for baking, too.  For mixing, I used my Kitchen Aid with the dough hook instead of my bread maker so the mixing time was probably 8 - 10 minutes.  I divided and refrigerated as Bill's recipe indicates.

For preparation, I followed Bill's recipe, using a rolling pin to get the 'boli dough nice and thin.  I smeared a thin layer Grey Poupon Country Style Dijon mustard all over the dough leaving a clean edge as he suggested (about an inch).  I layed on some sliced provolone and then added pepperoni, onions, italian sausage (cooked and crumbled), and banana peppers (my favorite) for toppings.  Last, I put some mozzarella over the top.  I probably followed Bill's suggested quantity for cheese, but I don't remember...I may have guess-timated that part.  Finally, I rolled it up and baked it on my stone just as he did--15 minutes at 420 degrees.  It was as good as it looks.   :)

Good luck with your stromboli and let us know how it goes.  Now you have me planning to make another one!   ;D

Tom

Offline scott r

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2005, 06:20:35 PM »
banana peppers are amazing,  That marinated, subtly spicy vinegar taste paired with a good salty topping like bacon, pepperoni, ham or fresh olives is really something else!

Offline BIG Daddy

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2005, 06:45:05 PM »
Traar;
Man oh man.........What a great recipe........What a great stromboli.  I followed your directions and recommendations 100% and my stromboli came out looking just like yours and it was delicious.  Sorry no pictures....no camera.  I recommend this recipe to everyone that enjoys this type of food.
BIG Daddy ;D ;D
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Offline giotto

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2005, 11:18:58 PM »
PizzaBill:

Sorry for any delay on your earlier interests. But you were in good hands with Pete-zza and so many others. If the dough ain't right before it goes into the oven, the end result will be an issue.  When working with New York pizza type or other thin crust, I follow these guidelines for technique to get my favorite ciabatta thin and light feel:

- I usually work with Pendelton or Giusto's, both unbleached at 13.5% and sometimes Caputo.  Chris Bianco mixes with Giusto's (like Caputo, it doesn't absorb well, so you gotta be careful and keep hydration down). In rare cases, I work with Gold Medal for bread unbleached (yellow bag).  I usually work with near 60% water hydration with Giusto's or a bit higher with Pendelton and other like absorption flours. Caputo is covered in A16 thread.
- I immediately get it in the refrigerator, inside tin (since it removes heat quickly).  Much on this in NY thread mentioned earlier.
- I use a small kitchenaid to bring it together. I never run it more than 30 seconds to 1 minute spurts for kneading, and always keep it at lowest level and complement with hand kneading in between.
- As Pete-zza suggests, the slight underkneading and handling is key for me. 
- I normally leave more of the gluten development during refrigeration, including lightly pushing it down once a day to dispose of alcohol and keep food moving. Even before the A16 session, I followed suit to this. I keep it in the refrig for 2 - 3 days.
- I let it come to room temp; but sometimes in less time than others... just over an hour sometimes.
- I'm very traditional and treat this baby like it's my first. I gently push it downward with my palm. I use my fingers, jabbing them in lightly like your making Ciabatta bread, from one end to the other.  Turn it over and I do the same again. After a quick pull on it (you know, hand near one end, hand pull on the other), I give it a quick toss and turn it in the air. I don't like to make a big cornicione in the dough (outer edge)-- that condenses it too much. The cornicione will come during cooking.
- My temp is at 550F and can range down to 530F.
- I almost always use a screen for control (I move it around the oven to get exact cooking)
- And with our lower temp ovens, I normally put the dough in the oven without any toppings for 1 minute or until I visibly see some bubbles form throughout as skin separates.  I can tell right there what I got. I want the whole darn thing to be Ciabatta like (I watch like a hawk through a lighted window).  On a friend's Kamato (strange looking beast of an outside oven), we used a heating plate, and did the pre-bake, no screen... Didn't have the window; but it came out real nice anyways.

I truly try to take the same time as the owner of Di Fara's when working with one of my pizzas. Different results though, and I like that.  Amazing he does it day in and out though.  More details as mentioned in the earlier New York post.  Does it always come out with huge holes in the cornicione? Not always.  But I always expect an overall lightweight airy nature of the crust, with huge holes along the sides with that slight crispiness and gentle hang up front.  The pre-heating is essental to me because if I get bubbles throughout the dough... I'm gonna get what I want (it's my preview).  If I get it limited, I notice something that others don't.

Ooops... did I just give away tricks of the trade again... oh that's right, it ain't a trade, it's a way to spur the American Renaissance of pizza as Reinhart commented about Tony Gemignani's recent pizza book, as noted in the book section of this site... Charge or no charge... Gotta love those who can bring it up a notch, gotta love pizzamaking.com! I sure hope this helps.

Offline giotto

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2005, 02:04:03 AM »
I forgot to mention above... I generally use Active yeast, except when developing a wild yeast.  The instant gives me no convenience, since the Active strain can be used without water as well-- bread machines suggest using active without water all the time.  I still remember when Pete-zza went to his Zo bread machine a long time ago and sure enough, no water with active yeast in its book.  I've seen it done by a Pro as well with 50lbs of flour.  In either case, I put yeast in water first to ensure it's good.  Too much of a chance for me to take.

Doesn't make any sense to me to use instant with "delayed" fermentation in mind.  Active is bad enough.  Even with the A16 thread, I switched to active yeast.  I'm simply "not" looking for instant results, and I don't see the need for my dough to rise by 50% faster as advertised in instant yeast. I'm looking for a 2 day minimum, hopefully 3 day and maybe more results. I don't want the sugar eaten... the enzymes worked hard to extract it from the starches for my taste buds and proper fermentation.  I go to great lengths to avoid sugar depletion and delay fermentation.  I use about 1/4 tsp of active yeast per 14" pizza.  Even with refrigeration, the yeast is only slowed down. My dough, like any pro dough that I sometimes purchase from a ma and pa pizzeria does not rise during refrigeration.  It loosens up; but doesn't get all bubbly or increase in size per se.   

When I read complete works by the owner of Acme bread (one of the finest natural leavening breads in the San Francisco area, out of Oakland), along with a discourse on the subject by Alice Water's (an early mentor of his in the culinary industry), I see no reason for reservations on the subject.  Of course, they use wild yeast; but they talk about the impact of commercial yeast, and active is recommended over instant. SO I'll stick with Active Yeast I suppose.  Much has been written on this subject in the past, so let's not create a whole dissertation on it.  I just wanted to let you know how I get what I get, and most importantly, why.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 02:14:04 AM by giotto »


Offline giotto

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2005, 03:24:07 AM »
Oh, concerning the H2O... I love the fact that in Tony Gemignani's More than 60 Homemade Pizza book that they went as far as getting water from places like Chicago and bringing it back with them just to test the myth concerning water.  I won't dispel the results... it's a good read with incredible illustrations.  I've had some good pizzas around here and seen them use their faucets. 

As for me, I use only local mountain spring or purified drinking water.  Not distilled though.  It's like wine... if you wouldn't drink it, don't cook with it... Well I make my pizza with what I drink, and I don't drink from these pipes around here.  It's a personal preference.

Offline giotto

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2005, 10:41:28 PM »
Here's pictures of a recent experience under the New York section, where many of the earlier posts were extracted, to help illustrate some of the points regarding voids and an airy Ciabatta feel above.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg16983.html#msg16983

Offline buzz

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Re: I want larger voids!!! HELP!
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2005, 02:42:43 PM »
When I make my thin crust kneaded in the bread machine and using three separate rises I get very large air pockets which bake up deliciously. And I use a rolling pin to roll the dough out wafer-thin. Maybe it's the Salton pizza maker that does it!


 

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