Sicilian- Edge Height?

[pizzablogger]

I'm having an issue with getting the edges of my Sicilian to rise higher than the middle of the crust.

I have tried putting a thin layer of sauce on the dough when cooking for the initial 5 minutes prior to topping.....minimal effect.

I've docked the interior portion of the dough while in the pan and the cooked just the dough for 5 minutes prior to topping...minimal effect

I've docked and topped with sauce in the middle....some impact, but not much.

Should I be not only stretching the dough to the edge of the pan, but also pulling it up against the sides to form a more pronounced dough "rim" before cooking the dough?

The pics included in this post are from my Labor Day Weekend Sicilian (Saturday). You can see from the top shot that the crust ended up pulling away slightly from the edge of the pan while cooking. (and that I went overboard with the amount of Extra Virgin Olive Oil)

After about 10 Sicilian pizzas using various amounts of Ischia starter, hydrations, crust thickness, room temperature rests before refrigerating, etc, I must say I am very close to something I am ready to post a recipe about. I've got a thin-not too thick crust I was looking for.

I know the edge issue may be minor, but I would really like any ideas on how to get it to pop up a bit higher instead of being sloped downwards. I have a feeling I need to stretch the dough more when forming in the pan and making a lip, which I will do next, but any thoughts and comments are appreciated. Many thanks! 

[Matthew]

I'm having an issue with getting the edges of my Sicilian to rise higher than the middle of the crust.

I have tried putting a thin layer of sauce on the dough when cooking for the initial 5 minutes prior to topping.....minimal effect.

I've docked the interior portion of the dough while in the pan and the cooked just the dough for 5 minutes prior to topping...minimal effect

I've docked and topped with sauce in the middle....some impact, but not much.

Should I be not only stretching the dough to the edge of the pan, but also pulling it up against the sides to form a more pronounced dough "rim" before cooking the dough?

The pics included in this post are from my Labor Day Weekend Sicilian (Saturday). You can see from the top shot that the crust ended up pulling away slightly from the edge of the pan while cooking. (and that I went overboard with the amount of Extra Virgin Olive Oil)

After about 10 Sicilian pizzas using various amounts of Ischia starter, hydrations, crust thickness, room temperature rests before refrigerating, etc, I must say I am very close to something I am ready to post a recipe about. I've got a thin-not too thick crust I was looking for.

I know the edge issue may be minor, but I would really like any ideas on how to get it to pop up a bit higher instead of being sloped downwards. I have a feeling I need to stretch the dough more when forming in the pan and making a lip, which I will do next, but any thoughts and comments are appreciated. Many thanks! 

Don't worry about that too much.  I was raised in a Sicilian household & have watched my grandmother make a tonne of pizza.  She places her dough on an oiled pan, presses it down & then flips it over to ensure that there is oil on both sides of the dough.  She then lets it proof for about 30-45 minutes & then presses it down again; this time ensuring that it completely covers the pan prior to topping it.  Unlike many other style pizzas, Sicilian pizza does not have a pronounced cornicone.  As a matter of fact my grandmother always cuts off the cornicone prior to cutting the pizza into squares.  Your pizza looks excellent, If it tastes as good as it looks I wouldn't change a thing.  I'd interested in seeing your recipe using a starter.

Matthew

[widespreadpizza]

Blogger,  gotta agree with Matt here,  leave it alone,  looks great. really.  I am eating some sicilian right now,  thats supposed to be top notch,  but it sucks.  I have never bought a slice that looks as good as yours,  and probably never will.  I'll wait for your recipie and give it a shot.  -marc   

[Matthew]

PB,

I put together a recipe & am going to make some dough using a natural starter today to bake on Saturday in my WFO.  Can you kindly post your recipe as I would like to do a side by side comparison with mine.   

Thanks,
Matt

[pizzablogger]

Hi Matthew.

I just played around with some variables on a recipe I cooked last night to confirm where I am at with regards to preferences. I am getting very close now to what I prefer.

At work right now, but I will post a detailed recipe, process and ingredients sometime tonight. Thanks! --pb

[Matthew]

Hi Matthew.

I just played around with some variables on a recipe I cooked last night to confirm where I am at with regards to preferences. I am getting very close now to what I prefer.

At work right now, but I will post a detailed recipe, process and ingredients sometime tonight. Thanks! --pb

Thanks alot,
I made up a batch this morning for Saturday using Camoldoli. 

I came up with the following Recipe:

80% Strong Bakers Flour
20% Caputo Pizzeria
60% Water (Including Starter)
10% Starter
  3% Salt
  5% Oil

Kneaded for about 15 minutes using my DLX & then finished off by hand kneading (I do that with all my dough & I find that it makes the world of difference) & then placed in a Container to Ferment for 48 hours @66 degrees. 

Matt

[pizzablogger]

Matthew, I'm extremely interested to see how long your Sicilian takes to cook in the WFO......how hot does your oven floor typically get?

Good luck and post some pictures for us to drool over.....this is a very interesting starting point for not only a natural yeast Sicilian, but one fired in a WFO as well.

Is your pan rated for the heat of your WFO, or will you lower the wood in your oven to keep the temp down? The smoky overtones from the oven could be delicious. 

[Matthew]

Matthew, I'm extremely interested to see how long your Sicilian takes to cook in the WFO......how hot does your oven floor typically get?

Good luck and post some pictures for us to drool over.....this is a very interesting starting point for not only a natural yeast Sicilian, but one fired in a WFO as well.

Is your pan rated for the heat of your WFO, or will you lower the wood in your oven to keep the temp down? The smoky overtones from the oven could be delicious. 

PB,
I run my oven pretty hot; 900+ on the floor & 1000+ in the dome.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8999.0.html 
I'm going to wait for the oven to cool down to about 550 on the floor before I pop it in.  I'm going to use a heavy guage aluminum sheetpan (13 x 17) that will be seasoned in the WFO prior to using.  Once ithe pizza is almost fully cooked I'm planning on removing it from the pan & finishing it on the hearth.
I was very pleased with the look & feel of the finished dough.  It was very soft & silky.  I'm sure that there will be room for improvement, but I think this is a pretty good starting point.  I need to perfect it before my grandmother comes over.

Matt

[TronCarter]

pizzablogger,

Are you looking for something like this?

[pizzablogger]

Tron, exactamundo!

Very nice....Do tell 

[TronCarter]

Well, this is not something that I have ever been attempting to do, it just happens with my recipe / technique I guess.  Since this was just a pleasant "side effect", I can't really pinpoint what makes it happen or not happen.  I can give you my recipe and technique and see if it works for you.  I will probably post the entire recipe with pictures and the full write up in a week or two after I take some better pictures.  Right now I have some American dough to use up first.

My technique does include pressing out cold dough (so that it holds it's shape better) to slightly larger than the pan.  That way it will go all the way to the edges and into the corners before proofing begins.  Since the pressed out dough is slightly larger than the pan, there is some pulling back of the dough that I do to make it fit, but I don't build it up on the edge.  I try to make the dough even across the pan.

The following makes dough for two 8x8 pans:

Dough:
10.56 oz Bread Flour (King Arthur is best, but General Mills will do)
.105 oz salt (~3 grams)
1gm Instant Dry Yeast (SAF Instant in the red brick is what I use)
6.56 oz water

A rough set of instructions that I wrote for a friend a while back:
To start I weigh out the water and IDY. I microwave the water for 30 seconds to warm it up to somewhere in the 90-100 degree range (knowing it is going into the metal bowl of my Kitchen Aid stand mixer that will cool it off some. I put the yeast and water in the bowl and let sit for a minute or two and stir to dissolve the yeast. While this is happening I weigh the flour and salt. After yeast has dissolved I add flour and salt to mixer and run on speed 1 for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes I weigh out two dough balls at right around 8.5 oz each and put them into a plastic container that has been brushed with regular olive oil. I put the lids on loosely and let sit on the counter overnight (I usually make the dough before going to bed). In the morning I put the containers into the refrigerator and store until I need them (I use them quickly so I don't know the actual shelf life). On pizza day, at lunch time I take the container out and press it out with my finger tips on a floured counter (when the dough is cold). I press it out and put it in an oiled 8x8 pan (~1tbsp regular olive oil for this size pan). Push it out into the corners and get it as close to the final shape as possible. Then I cover the pan with foil and during cold weather I put it in the oven with just the oven light on to keep a little warmer.  In warmer months I just leave it covered on the counter. When I get home I remove the foil which will allow the top to dry out just a little so that when I add sauce and cheese it won't completely deflate the dough (.5 - 1 hour maybe).  At dinner time I preheat the oven (with stone on bottom rack) to 550 and let it stay there for at least 20 minutes after it reaches 550. While it is heating I make the pizza (as lightly as possible so as not to completely flatten the risen dough out). Sauce, then toppings, then cheese all the way to the edge of the crust. Since the cheese it going to the edge of the dough and will be touching the side of the pan, it is a good idea to make sure you oil the sides of the pan well in the previous step. Foil goes back on the top.  It goes on the stone for 10 minutes and then I remove the foil and go for another 6 minutes to brown up the top just a bit. Pop it out of the pan (a plastic pancake flipper helps) on to a rack and let it cool for a few minutes and then cut.

[UnConundrum]

Tron, I think you erred in your ounce to gram conversion for salt.  Shouldn't that be just under 3 grams (2.97) ?

[TronCarter]

Tron, I think you erred in your ounce to gram conversion for salt.  Shouldn't that be just under 3 grams (2.97) ?

Yes, thank you for catching my error.  I have updated the original post to reflect ~3 grams.  I originally had that recipe broken down for only one dough ball, but found that it was too small for my mixer and, seriously, who only wants ONE?  Since 1.48 is half of the amount it should be, I probably just never doubled that number.