Author Topic: 36 hour ferment  (Read 1920 times)

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Offline exipnos

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36 hour ferment
« on: October 11, 2009, 03:31:28 PM »
Hi all,

After a long summer with a 25kg bag of Caputo red and 25kg of Caputo Blue Pizzeria flour I'm now getting close to the final destination.  Today I had a small pizza party with a total of 14 pizzas.  It was some of the best pizza of this summer. 

I started the dough making on Friday evening. 

I used a 62% hydration dough with 3% starter (50/50) of the total water and 2.5% salt.  Everything was hand mixed.  I worked the dough until completely smooth and then it went through 36 hours of fermentation in bulk. After the first 12 hour ferment I started to fold the dough every few hours.  At 36 hours I balled the dough and it was used 4-5 hours later.  The dough was very puffy and not at all watery.  It was easy to work with and it created a big and very nice and airy cornish.  It had a nice sourdough flavor but not over powering.  All the guest loved it and even I was happy about the results.  I would still like to see if I can improve.

Dough was outside at night and inside an air conditioned room during the day.  The temperature during the night went as cool as 15-16 degrees Celsius.  In the air conditioned room it was about 16-17 degrees. 

1.  Do you think these temperatures are to low for optimal maturation?  I think these temps helped to not over ferment the dough.
2.  Is it a good idea to fold the dough during the bulk ferment? I think it may have helped create the airy dough which was quite elastic and easy to work with. 
3.  Should I have left the dough a bit less time in bulk ferment and more in a balled state? 

Your expert thoughts will be welcomed.

Cheers.

Exipnos


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 36 hour ferment
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 04:15:51 PM »
exipnos,

To the best of my knowledge, the use of multiple stretch and folds is not a Neapolitan method for making pizza dough but it is one that is frequently used by bread makers and occasionally by an artisan pizza maker. For example, Brian Spangler, of Apizza Scholls, uses that method, as I discussed when I attempted to clone his poolish based, room-temperature fermented pizza dough at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg76431.html#msg76431.

According to pizzanapoletana (Marco) the idea fermentation temperature for a room-temperature fermented dough is 18-20 degrees C. So, you may be a bit on the low side. 

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: 36 hour ferment
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2009, 04:19:04 PM »
I would still like to see if I can improve.

Perhaps you could state specifically what it was about this batch that you thought could be better.

Offline exipnos

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Re: 36 hour ferment
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 05:36:10 PM »
Quote from: Bill/SFNM link=topic=9420.msg81583#msg81583 javascript:void(0);date=1255292344
Perhaps you could state specifically what it was about this batch that you thought could be better.

Good question.  I guess I don't really know.  This summer I was twice in Italy at the closest pizzeria that was AVPN certified.  I must say that it was not as expected. Quite chewy and not a big fluffy cornice.  Not at all like the photos we see here.  When visiting the Cheese festival in Bra, Italy, they had a Napolitana pizza stand there with mini margarita pizza's.  This was the real deal, like the photos and quite tasty.  Crust much better but again a bit to chewy to my taste. 

While this latest crust was very good, I'm wondering how my current technique may effect the dough.  For instance what does a slightly cooler fermentation temp result in?  My folds which took place over a 12 hour period does what to the dough quality? 

My dough had nice qualities and the final opened up pie looked almost identical to the one in your video.  But not as soft when you inverted the dough.   



My dough was quite elastic.  After opening it up into a properly sized pie it always retracted a bit in size. Is this the effect of to much folding? Maybe I did not let the dough rest enough in the balled state? I used the dough quite rapidly after removing it from the cool room.  Maybe I should have let i get closer to room temperature before using it?

This batch of dough had quite dramatic rise in the the hot oven (especially the last batch). If I can be picky then I would love to have a bit more raise.  I guess that wish came after seeing one of your videos of the rising dough. What can I do to improve the oven spring? 


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: 36 hour ferment
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 05:46:58 PM »
I'm wondering how my current technique may effect the dough.  For instance what does a slightly cooler fermentation temp result in?  My folds which took place over a 12 hour period does what to the dough quality? 

Maybe I should have let i get closer to room temperature before using it?

This batch of dough had quite dramatic rise in the the hot oven (especially the last batch). If I can be picky then I would love to have a bit more raise.  I guess that wish came after seeing one of your videos of the rising dough. What can I do to improve the oven spring? 

Everything you do effects your dough. I know it sounds obvious, but it is embarrassing how many times I've made assumptions about how a certain outcome was achieved only to be dead wrong. More often than not, it was multiple things that I did early in the process.

Fermentation temperature will typically most affect yeast activity. Less activity could mean a denser crust unless you are overproofing.

Folding increases gluten development and builds structure. Structure is needed to contain expansion. Too much structure can make your dough too tough.

Yes, I would give letting the dough warm up to room temp a try. But only change one thing at a time or you won't know what caused any changes you observe.
 

Offline s00da

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Re: 36 hour ferment
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 05:07:50 PM »
Folding the bulk fermented dough is done to further develop gluten in high hydration doughs because it's hard to get the proper gluten development with the initial mixing/kneading. It is also done to induce more air into the dough to get those large irregular holes in the final product. We are talking about doughs with 68%+ hydration but that also depends on flour absorption. Such technique is mostly used in making Ciabattas. I think in your case with the hydration of 62%, it might be more beneficial to degas and fold the dough once to redistribute things around to improve fermentation.

For your elastic dough, you might want to proof it in a warmer spot. This could increase extensibility.

Regarding fermentation temperature, as Bill said it will basically affect the fermentation rate. The colder the slower, the warmer the faster. If you want to know about the temperature effects on flavor, the following text might be of interest to you. I have contacted Ed Wood last week and he was kind to reply to me with attaching this word document.

SOURDOUGH FUNDAMENTALS -3

(Things you should know, an overview)


Ed Wood
 
 


Some want it sour, some like it mild, but everyone praises the exquisite flavor, aroma and open crumb of San Francisco sourdough.  There are ways to achieve it all that never use any form of commercial yeast, dough flavors or “improvers”.  We call it authentic sourdough! So will you!!   


This is a fermentation process.  The longer it lasts the better the flavor and sourness.  The key players, the only players: wild yeasts and lactobacilli.  Wild yeast leaven best at lower temperatures 65o to 75o.  Lactobacilli produce the best flavor and sourness at 85o to 90oF.  If dough proofing is at the lower temperatures, leavening will be excellent, but flavor and sourness mild. If proofing is at higher temperatures, the bacteria will be more active, the flavor more sour, but the yeasts will be inhibited by the acidity and the leavening not quite as good. Getting the right flavor sourness and leavening can be a balancing act to proof at the right temperature and at the right time.


Doing it right requires 3 proofs. Don’t panic.  It takes far less than one hour of the baker’s time. The organisms do all the rest.  First, the “fully active” culture is proofed 6 to 12 hours.  Next, the dough is proofed 8 to 12 hours.  Third the loaves are formed and proofed 3 to 4 hours until ready to bake.  An easy schedule is to start the culture proof in the morning, proof it during the day; start the dough proof in the evening, and proof it overnight; then finish by doing the loaf proof as convenient the next morning.

Consistency is changed by regulating the amount of flour or water in the dough until an open crumb is achieved.  Increasing the amount of water in a recipe by 4 percent increments will improve the crumb with each added increment.  At the higher moistures machine kneading is desirable as the dough can be sticky and difficult to handle.

THE PROOFS:

The culture:  Producing a massive innoculum of the sourdough organisms is the sole purpose of this proof. When the “fully active” culture is proofed at room temperature between 65o and 70o for 6 to 12 hours the flavor and leavening will be excellent, the sourness mild.  If proofed at 85o to 90o the flavor and sourness will be excellent , the leavening not as good.  Proofing at 65-70o for the first 2-3 hours produces an excellent crop of wild yeast cells.  Follow this by proofing at 80o-85o for the next 6-10 hours which produces an equally good crop of lactobacilli resulting in good flavor, leavening and sourness.  But feeding and warming it an hour is simply not enough.   Ignore this at your peril!

The dough:  The culture and additional ingredients are mix/kneaded for a maximum of 25 minutes in a bread machine or other mixer or kneaded by hand. The dough is then proofed for 8 to 12 hours in the machine pan covered with a light plastic or in a bowl covered by a lid.  After that proof, a plastic spatula is used to ease the dough to a floured board where it rests for 20-30 minutes. It is then gently formed into a ball retaining the contained air bubbles as much as possible.


The loaves:  The ball is placed in a willow basket dusted heavily with rye flour or in any other suitable baking container.  It is proofed for 3 to 4 hours until ready for baking. The basket is turned over to transfer the loaf to a greased baking sheet dusted with white corn meal.

Baking:  The baking sheet with its loaf is placed in a cool oven, which is set for 375o, turned on and baked for 70 minutes.  Or the loaf can be transferred to a preheated stone and oven at 450o for 40 minutes.  (Steam can be supplied by placing boiling water in a pan below the loaf as desired.)

It is not necessary nor desirable to do all three proofs at the same temperature and the length of each should be varied to achieve the desired results.   


Here is a good basic recipe to test all of the above:  (in your kitchen).

1.0 cup culture, 3¼ cups (460 grams) unbleached all-purpose flour, 1.0 cup water, 1½ teaspoons salt.

I have baked this recipe over a dozen times with different temperatures and proofing times for each of the 3 proofs.  My favorite is proofing the culture at 80o, the overnight dough and the loaf at 68o.  This combination produces a phenomenal oven spring (we call it “ballooning”), excellent flavor and sourness with a nice open crumb.  Now it’s your turn!!  For a more sour sourdough do the Loaf Proof at 90o.  If that isn’t sufficiently sour, it’s your turn to experiment.


If you search more on this subject over the internet and specially a website like thefreshloaf.com, you will see that it the opposite. That colder temp.s yield a more acidic flavor and the warmer temp. gives that buttery taste. Sorry for confusing you  :-D

I think it's time for you to experiment and see what works best  :D

Saad


 

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