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Offline gijoe985

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My newest dough
« on: October 10, 2009, 01:56:33 PM »
Hey all,

I'm going to be making 4 pizzas tonight. Two slightly different doughs. They were basically Lehmann dough to start, but I've been playing around. I wanted to put my routine and baking percentages down so I could get some critiquing. I had some decent ad some failed attempts in the past, but my current recipe looks alright.

Here are my %'s-

Flour           100%           575g   
Water     63%           362g   
Oil           1.0%           5.75     1.28 tspn
Salt           2.0%           11.50   2.39 tspn
IDY           .60%           3.45     1.14 tspn

I made two balls from this and two balls at .4% IDY. The Lehmann dough calculator put me at 551g of flour for a 15" pizza, but I upped it to 575 to try today for a larger rim. This is my first time increasing the dough from 551.

I am currently using=

*Flour- Pendleton High Gluten Flour I recently switched from KA BF. (I cannot do a link since I'm new, but go to Pendleton Flour Mills to read up. I use the unbleached, "power" high gluten, they say 13.5% protein, which is less than their whole wheat which is 14%... Maybe I should try whole wheat...They also have a "big spring" which is 14.5%, but I didn't see it at the Cash n Carry)
*Tap water (I need to get bottled, but haven't... Edit: Thought I'd mention that for those who don't know WA state has some really good tasting tap water, in fact I prefer it to bottled for drinking purposed, it's all glacier fed...)
*I used extra virgin olive oil, even though the Lehmann calc suggested against, with good results last time. I'd love to know why not... This is another change for the future.
*Morton Kosher Salt
*fleischmann bread machine yeast from Fred Meyer (Kroger) Should be an IDY, I believe. I hope to get IDY from Sams Club sooner of later.

My routine-

*Weigh out flour, add yeast (now using volume measurements converted since I don't trust my cheapo scale for 0-5g weights) mix in bowl.
*Weigh water, I've been using a varieties of starting temps, I used 87 on my .4% IDY batch and 95 F on my .6% batch to increase the finished temp
*Mix water and salt in the Kitchen Aid with the whisk.
*Start pouring in flour about 1/3 cup at a time. I start with about 1/4-1/3 of my total flour, then more gradually add flour as it gets fully absorbed until I hit about 2/3 of my flour.
*At 2/3 I take off the whisk and go straight to the dough hook. I went up from whisk to paddle to hook and I found that it wasn't worth the effort to use the paddle. It wasn't on long enough to justify.
*I again gradually add the flour and scrape the sides of the bowl as needed. Once all of the flour is in, I will stop it from time to time to give get the dough off the hook and mix the flour and drier parts it isn't getting.
*Once all, or almost all, of the flour is mixed well I add the oil.
*Note, up to this point, and for the most part, I do all my mixing on 2/10. 1 just seems to slow.
*I let it knead for maybe 2-4 minutes.
*Here I take it off and hand knead for a while. Maybe 2-4 minutes, depending. I really don't have the "feel" down yet, so I am still growing as to how long I need to knead for. I use a little flour when kneading, but this dough hardly seems to need it.
*I part the dough, weigh it out, and knead a few more times.
*I've been using glass Pyrex bowls that have rubber lids. I spray olive oil in the bowls put the dough in and then lightly spray the top of the dough.  
*I let it sit in the back of my fridge for varying lengths of time. This batch was made Friday morning and will be cooked Saturday evening. I've had them sit 2-3 days as well.
*Dough temps on completion were 70 for the dough that started at 87 water temp, and 76 for the dough I started at 95. This was in a 66 degree room. (I feel like I need hotter, but we'll see how she comes out.

Tonight-
*I am using a 15" stone, on the bottom rack, at 550 (unknown true temp, I believe my oven cooks hotter than what it says, it's from the 50's...  ;D )
*I will let the dough sit out of the fridge for 2 hours with the tops off of their bowls, but I leave them in the bowls.
*I pat the balls into even circles, then stretch on the counter, then stretch on top of my fists, then toss a little bit, then stretch on the peel. I use some corn meal on the peel to prevent sticking, but I also like the texture it creates...
*I am using a homemade sauce, nothing special, hunts with salt, sugar, oregano, basil, garlic powder and onion powder.
*For tonight I will use the cheapest mozz from the store, but also 1lb of fresh mozz on its own pizza to see how it works.
* I'll do pepperoni (cheaper tonight) on most of them, maybe one will be more toppings (for the wife.)
*Oh, when assembling I put on three full tablespoons (kitchen, not measuring) of sauce, a sprinkle of kosher salt , a sprinkle of shredded parmesan, the cheese, and then another sprinkle of salt. Then toppings.
*In the oven being used I found that the pizzas cook for around 7 minutes, depending on how long you let the over reheat between pizzas.

There it all is, I'll do pizza and cross section pictures tonight.

=======
PETE-ZZA
=======

Hey, I like your systematic style of experimenting, I do the same, though just starting. I'd love to hear your thoughts on my pizza, but my one simple question/request is, "What are the baking percentages you used for your favorite/best pizza yet?" And any specific ingredient changes you made if you think that was a factor. I'm just curious, and you have so many posts, it's hard to nail down your favorite. Thanks

« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 10:30:48 AM by gijoe985 »


Offline gijoe985

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Re: My newest dough & Pete-zza Question
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2009, 03:49:38 PM »
Alright, I need to make smaller files sizes of my pictures, but looking at my dough, after 24 hours in the fridge, I think it is over fermenting. I am tempted to punch it down, but don't know if I should. I have two balls of each dough, I am considering to punch one of each to see how it comes out...

Edit: You know, I really don't know if I should punch this down or not. I'm not really familiar with the details of the process. Obviously I know how to do it, but whether I want to, I don't know. I think my fridge is not very cold. I put in a "standard" about of yeast and a higher amount just to see how it affected the flavor, but I wanted to dough consistency to remain the same. I don't think I am going to let it warm up much. Jeff V suggested on his page that if it looked over fermented to just keep it in the fridge until the last minute.

We'll see, I just don't want an american style pizza with the medium thickness cakey crust, I like the thinner crust, with fluff only in the rim...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 07:22:39 PM by gijoe985 »

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Re: My newest dough & Pete-zza Question
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2009, 07:46:22 PM »
gijoe985,

Your dough formulation looks OK except that your IDY is more than I typically use. Was it the 0.60% IDY that you used with the 95 degrees F water that was rising too fast? Ideally, what you want to strive for in a home environment is a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. If it is less than that, the dough will ferment more slowly. You can offset this somewhat by letting the dough sit at room temperature for about a half hour or so before putting it in the refrigerator.

There is nothing wrong with your Pendleton high-gluten flour. However, I wouldn't suggest using the whole wheat flour just to get the higher protein content. It will produce an entirely different result than using the Pendleton high-gluten flour.

Your use of extra virgin olive oil is also fine. The basic Lehmann dough formulation is a commercial one and, for that reason, Tom Lehmann usually recommends that pizza operators use an oil that is less expensive than extra virgin olive oil, such as a regular olive oil, or even a pomace grade olive oil, or a combination of olive oil and a vegetable or canola oil. For the amount of oil called for in the dough formulation (1%), no harm will come from using extra virgin olive oil.

To answer your question about my favorite dough formulation, I have many. However, I am very fond of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation because of its simplicity and its connection to the classic NY style as that style has been practiced for many, many years. The baker's percents are pretty straightforward:

100%, Flour (e.g., a high-gluten flour or a bread flour)
62-63%, Water
0.25-0.40% IDY (the lower value is for warm weather doughs and the upper end is for cold/cool weather doughs)
1.50-1.75%, Salt
1%, Oil

I have used the basic Lehmann dough formulation for many experiments. You can see some of them at the Lehmann Roadmap at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193.

Peter




Offline gijoe985

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Re: My newest dough & Pete-zza Question
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2009, 07:18:50 PM »
gijoe985,

Your dough formulation looks OK except that your IDY is more than I typically use. Was it the 0.60% IDY that you used with the 95 degrees F water that was rising too fast? Ideally, what you want to strive for in a home environment is a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. If it is less than that, the dough will ferment more slowly. You can offset this somewhat by letting the dough sit at room temperature for about a half hour or so before putting it in the refrigerator.

====
I have used the basic Lehmann dough formulation for many experiments. You can see some of them at the Lehmann Roadmap at -------

Peter

Thanks, I was going with the .4% IDY, but was just experimenting with the .6% just to see how it affected the flavor. I increased the the water temp to 95 on the .6% batch, because I had just finished my .4% batch starting with 87 degree water and got a 70 degree finished temp. So I increased temp to make the next batch (the .6%) finish at 76 degrees.

I feel that the .4% was much better as for the dough style. I was really just trying the .6% to see the differences and to see if it had a positive effect on the flavor at all. I'll probably go ahead and next time try some .4% and then maybe a .25%.

Oh, and Peter, from what I have gathered I know that your favorite NY style recipe was the Lehmann style, and that link you gave has a lot of variations, but I was curious if you had a particular experiment/variation that you enjoyed the most? Or did you like the original Lehmann recipe best? I just figure we're doing a similar thing, which is taking the original recipe and then experimenting to see if you can find alterations that fit your particular taste better.

I'll do pictures soon, I need to find a way to make them smaller in file size.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 09:37:03 PM by gijoe985 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My newest dough & Pete-zza Question
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2009, 08:45:18 PM »
gijoe985,

Yeast has a flavor but in order to detect it in the finished crust you need a lot of it--far more than you would ever want to use in the Lehmann style dough. A difference of 0.20% IDY--from 0.040 to 0.60%--is not enough to be able to detect it. There are some dough formulations, however, such as Chicago deep-dish doughs and cracker style doughs, that can use far more yeast than a Lehmann style dough because the hydration levels are so low. Such doughs don't rise nearly as quickly as a more highly-hydrated dough and the yeast flavor is likely to be more pronounced as a result. Even then, you will have to go above 2.5% for fresh yeast and over 1% for dry yeasts.

I have made so many different versions of the basic Lehmann NY style dough that turned out well that it would be hard for me to single out one as the best of the lot. However, some of the best ones were those that either used natural starters/preferments or were cold fermented for many days. I described several in the latter category at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. I think I differ from most people in that I don't try to perfect any given dough formulation, or even a few. I also don't limit myself to any one style. I usually migrate to those formulations and styles where I think I will learn something new. So, even I don't always know where I will strike next.

Peter

Offline gijoe985

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Re: My newest dough & Pete-zza Question
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 11:22:48 AM »
I had a couple other questions. I have been cooking on the bottom rack, but I think I'll move it up one because my bottoms are getting a little bit darker than I want if I leave it in until the top looks good. Sound logical?

Here's my other problem, my oven from the 50's cooks hot, which I am thankful for, but I wish I had a window to look in with. I slightly overcooked my first pie of this last round in 4 minutes flat. Does anyone have a thermometer that they could suggest that can go up to 600+ degrees? People have suggested the IR ones, but that seems pointless to me since I'd have to open the oven to use it, and then heat gets lost. I've got a thread in the equipment section about this, but I thought I'd just mention it...

So next round I think I will go for .25% yeast. Maybe a batch of .25% and a batch of .4%. Any suggestions on hitting my final dough temp?  I've used 95 degree water and it finished at 75 degrees. Could the amount of time that I am kneading it be a problem? Once all of the ingredients are in, how do I know how long to knead for? I usually just go by feel... If anything, I assume that I probably overknead. The pizza is pretty chewy.

Also, if I continue to have overfermentation problems, what should I try? Adding the yeast and salt after the water and flour have mixed? Doing a autolyse essentially? Or just use colder water and smaller amounts of yeast?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 11:45:10 AM by gijoe985 »

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Re: My newest dough & Pete-zza Question
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 07:12:05 PM »
Also, if I continue to have overfermentation problems, what should I try? Adding the yeast and salt after the water and flour have mixed? Doing a autolyse essentially? Or just use colder water and smaller amounts of yeast?

gijoe985,

There are many options available to you. My first choice would be to strive to achieve a finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees F. If that doesn't work, I would then lower the amount of yeast. You can also use colder water and less yeast, in combination. Adding the yeast later in the dough making process will also work but I don't think you should need to use that approach. That is an approach that works best when you want to make a dough that can last a week or more in the refrigerator.

I think raising your stone toward the middle of the oven is worth pursuing given the tendency of your oven to run at high temperatures. In some ovens, the lowest oven rack position works best but there are ovens where the middle oven rack position works best.

Peter


Offline gijoe985

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Re: My newest dough
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 01:07:34 PM »
I've got another quick dough questions that I'd like to sort out before my next go. Dough thickness... I added about 25g to my flour, from what the calc gave me for a 15" .1 crust, because I wanted a little more rim for my wife. She like a good sized rim, essentially for a bread stick. But now i am wondering if part of my problem was too thick of a crust for my liking. I read somewhere that .1 is NY, but then American style (medium thicknes) is only like .11 or .12. So I guess I am just curious about how I am supposed to determine when I have a .11 vs a .12 thick crust.

Also, do you guys make a thicker rim when you form the dough? Or does it happen fairly naturally? I'd rather get the main part of the crust down first before I worry about a thicker/bigger rim. I watched a youtube video, linked by Peter in another thread I believe, on how to form dough. Done by a famous NY pie tosser. I use a very similar method of forming. Either way, any tips would be great. I am assuming I don't want such a thin crust that it looks like a window pane test, but I don't want ti to turn out a "medium" thick crust either.

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Re: My newest dough
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 02:16:13 PM »
gijoe085,

I'm not exactly certain I understand what you are trying to do, but if I enter the baker's percents from your opening post into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, along with a 15" pizza size and a thickness factor of 0.10, I get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.60%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (166.6%):
300.71 g  |  10.61 oz | 0.66 lbs
189.45 g  |  6.68 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.8 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
6.01 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
3.01 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
500.99 g | 17.67 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = 0.1

The dough calculating tools are not set up to calculate a new thickness factor for your case where you have decided to increase the amount of flour by 25 grams, for example, from 300.71 grams to 325.71 grams. Doing that increases the total dough weight from 500.99 grams to 525.99 grams. To be able to calculate the thickness factor for the increased amount of dough for the 15" pizza, you have to do it longhand, using a simple desk calculator. In this example, the new thickness factor is [(525.99/28.35)/(3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5) = 0.104991].

I think you can see that the above approach is cumbersome. I personally prefer the approach of entering a thickness factor and also using a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% when a stand mixer is used (2.5% when the whisk attachment is used). You may not think that you have sustained dough losses, but if you have not used a bowl residue compensation, I can almost guarantee that you have sustained dough losses.

To give you a simple example, a typical thickness factor for a NY style, based on information I received from Tom Lehmann himself, is 0.08828. If I enter that thickness factor value into the expanded dough calculating tool along with the other data for a 15" pizza, and I also use a bowl residue compensation of 2.5%, I get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.60%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (166.6%):
272.11 g  |  9.6 oz | 0.6 lbs
171.43 g  |  6.05 oz | 0.38 lbs
1.63 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.54 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
5.44 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
2.72 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
453.33 g | 15.99 oz | 1 lbs | TF = 0.090487

As noted from this table, the total dough weight is 453.33 grams. In practice, the actual dough weight might be higher or lower than that value, but it is more likely that it will be greater. If it is greater than 3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5 x 0.08828 = 15.60 ounces, or 442.27 ounces, then you should trim the dough weight back to 442.27 ounces. That is the drill I go through for just about all of my doughs. If I am off, I increase or decrease the bowl residue compensation for the next dough made in the same manner.

With respect to your rim questions, the size of the rim is a largely a matter of how you shape and form the dough skin. There will be some natural rise of the rim because it is exposed at its outer surfaces during baking but you can also increase or decrease the final size of the rim by the way that you form the skin. You can make a gigantic rim, or you can flatten the dough at the outer edge of the skin to keep it small. There are a multitude of variations between these two examples.

Peter

 


Offline gijoe985

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Re: My newest dough
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2009, 07:15:25 PM »
AH... you totally had me wondering what went wrong with my numbers there... I forgot that I was calculating for 2 balls. So everything of mine was doubled.

Upon further investigation  found out where my numbers got funny. The time before this when I used the calc I must have accidentally did a 14" crust at .105 (heard that was a good number from somewhere) but I recorded it as being a 15". That gave me just under 551g of flour for 2 balls. I stretched it to about 15" and it seemed a bit thin and I didn't have much to work with to allow for more dough toward the rim. So I figured next time I'd just up it by 25g. So the next time I ran the calc I did it by dough weight. I then put it in for 575 as my dough weight... But I think I did that per ball... leaving me with a lot extra...

I figured something wasn't right, they tasted good, but a bit too thick for me.


 

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