Neapolitan Dough - just can't seem to get it right

[a pizza cu a Pumarola]

A recent update - I let the bulk dough ball ferment for almost 2 hours and then I made individual dough balls and let those ferment at around 70 degrees F for 14 more hours and the result was disastrous. The dough balls basically filled the plastic container to the point that it looked like one big mass. My attempt to try and separate the dough back into balls was unsuccessful as the dough was sticky and elastic. I decided to remake them into dough balls as I now disturbed the gluten and I am allowing it to ferment once again in hopes that I can make pizzas from this dough. I have taken pictures of the dough at it's different stages but I cannot post them as they are bigger than the allowable image size so I must first figure out how to shrink the file size.
The only thing I changed in my recipe is that I added slightly more yeast which obviously could be the cause of this whole thing. I do hear the term "punch down the dough" but I am not sure what this exactally means and if this is a common practice in Neapolitan pizza making.

I'm off to try and resize my file to be able to post the pictures. As usual any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Robert

[UnConundrum]

Others will chime in, but I think you have the order reversed.  Try your 14 hours in bulk, and 2-3 hours after creating the balls....

[thezaman]

robert, if this is a 24 hour room temp. dough reduce your yeast ,use colder water so your finished dough comes out colder after your kneed. also ,you should bulk rise it longer ,and cut and ball your dough three to four hours before you use it. that should give it time to rest and it wont over rise.

[Pete-zza]

I mentioned the reversal of the fermentation sequence earlier, but I believe that Robert is repeating his original experiments with some modifications. If I am wrong on this, he might clarify what his most recent dough formulation/method is.

Peter

[Essen1]

For what it's worth...

First off, I'd lower the amount of yeast. Perhaps cut it in half if a room temp rise is desired. Second, I also would increase the kneading time from 8-10 to 10-15 mins, maybe even up to 20 mins with some rests thrown in.

I agree with the other guys and do a bulk rise first, then ball it up and let rise again.

Peter posted some helpful hand kneading tips right here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7352.msg63476.html#msg63476

[JConk007]

Bulk Rise 16-20hrs. then 2-4 hrs. balled> Just a little tiny bit o yeast.

[a pizza cu a Pumarola]

I want to begin by saying that todays pizza was the best I made to date.

Thanks for all your replies, you guys are a great help in allowing me to finally achieve a great Neapoletan pizza.

Peter - as for your question, I am still using the same recipe and the method you suggested, that is;

1kg of Caputo 00 flour (100%)
8 grams of fresh brewers yeast (0.8%)
20 grams of salt (2%)
580 grams of water (58%)

I began by heating the water to 105 degrees F and then adding the salt. I stirred and waited until all the salt was dissolved and then added the yeast at which point I stirred until it was fully dissolved.
At this point I began slowly adding the four into the bowl while working it by hand until it was to difficult to continue. I then tipped the dough onto a table and added the remainder of the dough while continuously kneading until all the flour was incorporated.
I then continued to knead the dough for 8 to 10 minutes. After the kneading I allowed to to ferment at room temperature for approximately 2 hours.
After this bulk fermentation I made my individual dough balls and allowed them to ferment for an additional 14 hours.
Since at this point my dough balls joined together and created one big mass of dough I re-balled them once again and let them ferment for another 3 hours.
The dough balls formed once again and I then made my pizzas from them.

On the plus side the dough stretched better than usual but still not as good as I want them to or perhaps I am just not experienced enough at stretching dough. I assume that it takes me too long to stretch the dough such that it reaches a point that it becomes elastic and just jolting it to slide off the pizza peel makes it constrict.

On the negative side the dough seemed to be stickier than usual and thus a little difficult to handle during the stretching part.

Like I said at the beginning, this was by far my best dough to date but I am sure that it can be much better with more of your help.

Now for a few questions:
Is 0.8% yeast not typical for a Neapolitan pizza dough and thus is it too much?
Can dough be reformed into balls several times throughout the ferment period to allow for a 24 to 36 hour dough ferment?
Does anybody know how they manage to have 36 hour dough in Naples when they only ferment at room temperature and not in the fridge? Do they rework the dough balls several times throughout the 36 hour period?

I am traveling for work next week hence I will only be able to try another batch of dough upon my return on Oct 31st although I will still try to be active on the forum.

Once again thanks to all for your great help to date


Robert

[Pete-zza]

Robert,

Somehow I missed your post earlier today. But after reading it, I am confused. I would not recommend using 0.80% fresh yeast for the long room temperature fermentations that you used. That amount of yeast would be far too much. 

I think what you need to do is to determine what kind of fermentation you want to use, that is, room temperature only, cold fermentation, or a combination of both, and also the relative timeframes. The same dough recipe won't work for all three scenarios.

To give you an idea of a dough recipe that can use fresh yeast for room temperature fermentations, see Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12892.html#msg12892. In that recipe, the fresh yeast, at 2.5 grams, is about 0.15%. That might be low enough to get you out to 16 hours but that will depend on your room temperature.

You might find it useful to take a look at this thread if you intend to continue to pursue long room temperature fermentations: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html. I think that that thread will show you the principles involved in long room temperature fermentations, the types of problems that accompany long room temperature fermentations, and also answer most of the questions you have been asking. In my work in that thread, I used mainly instant dry yeast (IDY), not fresh yeast. If I wanted to use fresh yeast, I would about triple the weight of the IDY.

Peter

[Deacon Volker]

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't 105 degrees for the water way to hot?  I believe we've been taught that the yeast will actually start to die off around 95 degrees.  I know at AIB we're using water temps of 50-55F for the Neo-type doughs. 

[Pete-zza]

Jeff,

Yeast will die at around 143 degrees F. Between about 120-130 degrees F, yeast may start to die off or be seriously impaired if held in direct contact with water at those temperatures for too long. The proper temperature to rehydrate ADY is around 105 degrees F. IDY and fresh yeast do not normally require rehydration and can simply be added to the flour. If a particular application, such as when using a VCR or for other short knead times, IDY and fresh yeast can be rehydrated at around 95 degrees F. It is not a good idea to rehydrate any yeast at 50-55 degrees F because that might shock the yeast and degrade its performance. However, if the yeast, such as IDY or fresh yeast, is added to the flour, which buffers the yeast from the effects of high or low water temperatures, you can use water at 50-55 degrees F, or even much higher. I have used water temperatures as low as 32 degrees F (ice cubes, actually) and as high as 132 degrees F but only after the yeast has been mixed in with the flour.

For the basics of yeast, see Tom Lehmann's PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50956#50956. Keep in mind also that modern strains of yeast have been designed to withstand wider temperature ranges (and effects of salt also) more so than their predecessor strains.

Peter

[scottfsmith]

Robert I use very similar bakers percents and get good results every time.  I start in the morning, mix together all dry ingredients, add water at cool tap temp (a little warmer if flour was from freezer), mix by hand for a minute with a stick to help my dough hook quickly ball it, mix in mixer for a couple minutes until its all one consistent ball, autolyze 20 mins (not critical), then knead with hook for 8-10 minutes.  Then, let sit at room temp until a couple hours before dinner - 7 hours or so fermentation - and divide at that point.  Give each ball a couple hours rest before making pies.  This gives me a great handling dough.  I sometimes start the night before with much less yeast, I go by eye but its probably only 1/4th of what I use when I start in the morning (the amount of yeast varies by season, cold winter ferments need more yeast).  When doing the overnight version I knead only a couple minutes the night before and then do a stretch+fold in the morning, and divide 2hrs before dinner.

Scott

[Pete-zza]

Scott,

Your experience and numbers make sense. I guessed that 0.80% fresh yeast would take Robert's dough out to about 8 hours or so at room temperature but not out to 14 hours. Using one-quarter of that amount of yeast, or 0.20%, would take the dough out even further, especially is the dough is subjected to one or more stretch and folds. Have you ever skipped the stretch and fold that you mentioned and, if so, what results did you get? You also did the long bulk fermentation and a short fermentation for the divided dough balls. Marco's recommendation is for at least 12 hours in bulk and 3-4 more hours for the divided dough balls. I believe that was tailored to the use of a natural starter but would most likely also apply to a fresh yeast application (about 0.15% fresh yeast in the recipe referenced earlier).

Peter

[scottfsmith]

Have you ever skipped the stretch and fold that you mentioned and, if so, what results did you get? You also did the long bulk fermentation and a short fermentation for the divided dough balls. Marco's recommendation is for at least 12 hours in bulk and 3-4 more hours for the divided dough balls. I believe that was tailored to the use of a natural starter but would most likely also apply to a fresh yeast application (about 0.15% fresh yeast in the recipe referenced earlier).

Peter, I always did the morning stretch and fold.  I have left out the mixing and instead did two stretch-and-folds the evening before (an hour or so apart) in place of any kneading/mixing along with the morning one, and that also worked fine.

Re: how much time for divided balls, I am very gentle in pulling balls from the main mass of dough and I find the top is completely flat again in two hours (I do the 2nd rise in small bowls).  Going too much beyond that and the dough is too loose for me.

I should work on the overnight method some more, it produces a more fluffy crust than the morning version.  I haven't gotten the handling to be quite as good on the overnight version yet so I usually use the morning version (the overnight version can be too loose and prone to rip).  I made pizzas last Sunday from the morning version and a few flips back and forth just like those pros in the videos and I had a perfect pizza.

Scott

[s00da]

Robert,

I think you have a littel mixed-up dough preparation method.

When you make dough with high yeast %, let it first-ferment for 60-90 mins and then divide and ball; You are basically using the direct dough method which means you will be making pizza few hours after the balls are made. The reason you need those few hours is to complete fermentation, allow the dough balls to become cohesive and relax the gluten. This will make the dough ball stretch easily and evenly into a skin.

If you bulk ferment at room temperature for a long time then the dough will gain alot of volume and gluten will lose alot of its elasticity. You then divide a ball 4-5 hours before making pizza. This will give back the gluten the elasticity it lost during the long bulk fermentation and allow for a final rise for the balls.

What you are doing is, short First-ferment, divide and ball...so far this is direct dough method. You then ferment the balls for a long time in room temp. which really is unusual because that means the initial division was not needed. This is why you had to reform the balls. Now you didn't indicate for how long did you allow the reformed balls to rest? Don't forget that you restored the elasticity to the gluten so now it needs time to relax again. Also, if you don't allow enough time, the dough balls won't be cohesive and will give you a hard time stretching evenly.

Saad

[a pizza cu a Pumarola]

Hey guys - chiming in from out of town. I am due to be back home tomorrow but I wanted to thank all you guys for the wealth of information you all posted.
I've had the chance to read through the posts and I have tuned my recipe/dough method based on your posts.

I will post my new recipe/method when I get back home for you guys to reevaluate.

Up to now I was using small 1kg bags of Caputo flour since the large bags are not available in my neck of the woods but in my travels this week I was close to a distributor for Caputo flour and thus I picked up a 25kg bag.

[a pizza cu a Pumarola]

Hello all - I haven't had time to break into my 55lb bag of Caputo this weekend as my little guy caught some nasty virus and I was busy tending to him round the clock. I hope to have time to get a batch in before the end of the week. The following is what I am planning to do based on all recommendations from the posts.

1kg of Caputo 00 flour (100%)
1.5 grams of fresh yeast (0.15%)
20 grams of salt (2%)
580 grams of water (58%)

As you can see I greatly reduced the amount of yeast I'll be using since I am planning to room temperature (70 degrees F) ferment the bulk dough for 48 to 52 hours. I will do as suggested and let the bulk dough ferment and then ball the dough 4 to 5 hours prior to baking. Do you guys think this is a ludicrous room ferment time at 70 degree F and thus my dough will pass it's sweet point?
The reason for this experiment is that I've tried to cold ferment (fridge) in the past for 72 to 84 hours and I found the dough to have a much better taste and a phenomenal fragrance so I am hoping to do this with a room temperature ferment.

I am not sure what I should do for my water temperature. I last used Peter's recommendation of 105 degree F but should I change the temperature due to my long ferment time?

Other than the above changes I plan to follow the same dough making method as in one of my earlier posts except that I will hand knead the dough for much longer than previously - somewhere in the vicinity of 15 to 20 minutes.

Let me know what you guys think about the long room temperature ferment time and what I should adjust to make this happen.

Thanks to all

Robert

[widespreadpizza]

Robert,   getting 48+ hours at room temp might prove to be a bit tough.  Your yeast level might need to go down to .05 to make it that far,  maybe less.  Also your starting water temp will be too high for this attempt.  Try room temp or even cooler.  Also for such a long rise you might want to increase your salt content to 2.5-3,  which will help slow fermentstion and add strength to the dough.  Just my thoughts,  but 24 hours of fermentation is usually great for caputo,  not to mention predictable after a while.  Just make the dough the night before use.  -marc

[scottfsmith]

I would agree with marc, start with 24 hours.  Longer ferments at room temperature often lead to overdevelopment and breakdown of gluten.  Fermentation is roughly 5 times faster at room temp compared to a fridge, so a 24-hour room temp is (very) roughly comparable to a 5-day fridge fermentation.  Your amount of yeast sounds about right for a 24-hour room temp fermentation.

Scott

[a pizza cu a Pumarola]

Thanks for your replies - I will try to get a batch of dough made this eveing. I'll keep you all posted with my results.