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Offline Guts

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Newbie Sugar Question
« on: November 08, 2009, 08:56:54 PM »
Newbie Sugar Question

Why is it that some formulas use glucose / sugar / honey / or other forms. And is it used to feed the yeast?
DOSE IT DEPEND ON WHAT TYPE OF YEAST YOU ARE USING.

My 11/02/09 pie;
Guts/AKA/Kim
"Vegetarian - old Indian word for bad fisherman"


Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2009, 09:08:15 PM »
It offers a few properties. It can feed the yeast, aid in browning, add flavor.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline UnConundrum

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2009, 09:12:45 PM »
What he said...

I love your picture.  Great resolution.  Wish I could take pics like that :)

Online Pete-zza

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Offline Guts

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2009, 10:08:56 PM »
thank you for the replies. I think I might try dissolving the sugar in my water next time, to see if there is a difference.

I'm new at this and have trying to get the weight thing down but not much luck at it yet. I have weighted the small amounts (like yeast) on a triple beam scale, and the water and flour on a dial type scale. But it seems to come out quite different than the formulas I have seen here. Here is what I have so far. I have no clue how to make it into bakers percentages. Dose this look right? or any suggestions on improving it. All suggestions welcome.
Thank you

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Makes Two 13 inch Pizza Pies

Cooked on 13 inch Stone... they come out 12± to 13 inch.

3  Cups Flour 1 C all purpose 2 C La Romanella; from smart and final.                          1 Lbs. / 454 ± Grams

Water 1 ¼ Cups       11 ¼ Oz. / 300 ± Grams / 300 Mill liters

Salt 2 tsp                  17 Grams         [note:rechecked found it to be 14.1 to 14.4 grams]

Sugar 4 tsp              17.1 Grams

Olive Oil 2 TBS        32.1 Grams

SAF- IDY 1 tsp         3.875 Grams

Total Dough weight  1Lb 11.5oz     754 Grams 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 12:52:44 AM by Guts »
Guts/AKA/Kim
"Vegetarian - old Indian word for bad fisherman"

Offline Guts

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2009, 10:22:59 PM »
 UnConundrum

I'm using a bird like camera  (you know Cheep Cheep) a HP - M547.

When I attach a picture I have the option of using these sizes. I'm not sure how big I can use on pizzamaking.com most sites don't like medium or large pics. this one was 800X600 small. They range on my program like this;

smaller    640X768
small       800X600
medium  1024X768
Large      1280X1024
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 11:16:02 PM by Guts »
Guts/AKA/Kim
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2009, 10:38:58 PM »
Kim,

Are all the weight numbers you posted actual weights from using your scales? When I do conversions of recipes from volumes to weights, I try to get actual weights for the flour and water as best I can and then use conversion data to convert the volumes of ingredients like salt, sugar, oil and yeast to weight measurements. I then convert each ingredient to a baker's percent.

Peter

Offline Guts

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2009, 11:08:26 PM »
Yes Peter I measured every thing as close as I could. like the IDY at 3 7/8 grams.
And Thank you for your Help !
Guts/AKA/Kim
"Vegetarian - old Indian word for bad fisherman"

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2009, 11:56:31 PM »
Kim,

I used your numbers for the weights of flour and water and my conversion data for the rest of the ingredients to convert your dough recipe to baker's percent format, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. I get the following result using this method:

Flour (100%):
Water (70.3125%):
IDY (0.83333%):
Salt (2.46094%):
Olive Oil (5.95234%):
Sugar (3.51563%):
Total (183.07474%):
453.6 g  |  16 oz | 1 lbs
318.94 g  |  11.25 oz | 0.7 lbs
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
11.16 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
15.95 g | 0.56 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
830.43 g | 29.29 oz | 1.83 lbs | TF = N/A

If I use your numbers, I get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (70.3125%):
IDY (0.85428%):
Salt (3.7478%):
Olive Oil (7.07672%):
Sugar (3.76984%):
Total (185.76114%):
453.6 g  |  16 oz | 1 lbs
318.94 g  |  11.25 oz | 0.7 lbs
3.88 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.29 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
17 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.05 tsp | 1.02 tbsp
32.1 g | 1.13 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.13 tsp | 2.38 tbsp
17.1 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.29 tsp | 1.43 tbsp
842.61 g | 29.72 oz | 1.86 lbs | TF = N/A

I can't tell you which method is more correct or better than the other, but given a choice, I prefer to use conversion data rather than weighing small amounts of ingredients. That way, I don't have to worry whether my volume measuments of ingredients that I put on a scale are flush, heaping or scant or, for oil, whether the meniscus is just right. I have a special scale that is capable of weighing small amounts of lightweight ingredients but I rarely use it for that purpose. Sometimes with my special scale, if I breathe while taking measurements, or there is a light breeze in the air, the weights can vary quite widely. So, I limit my use of that scale to ingredients for which I have no conversion data.

In your case, you might want to doublecheck your data for the salt. Your salt level seems much too high for a functional dough.

Peter

« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 11:58:59 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Guts

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2009, 12:14:43 AM »
Peter
This is the scale I used to weigh the salt- sugar- IDY and EVOO
Thank you for the help on this. I'm here to learn and I have a lot to learn.
If you were to guess, what amount of salt would you be using here?
Is that 70.3% hydration. if so is this to high?
Ok I had to go measure the salt again, did it three times with two level tsp. weighted 14.1 to 14.4 grams that's ± .3 tenths of gram difference Still on the high side of what I have seen. What should it if you don't mind saying.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 12:48:07 AM by Guts »
Guts/AKA/Kim
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2009, 10:40:37 AM »
Kim,

I am not an expert on scales so I don't feel qualified to comment on your results using the scale you noted. The special scale I mentioned that I use is the MyWeigh 300-Z, which I purchased a few years ago on eBay. A photo of it is shown at http://www.myhealthmyworld.com/My-Weigh-300-Z-Pocket-scale.html. That scale is supposed to be better and more accurate in measuring small quantities of ingredients, especially lightweight ones.

The 70.3% figure you mentioned is indeed the hydration for the dough made using your dough recipe. It is calculated by dividing the weight of water by the weight of the flour. If those weights were correctly and accurately weighed on your scale, the corresponding hydration is 70.3%. It is hard to say whether that is too high. For most flours, such as the two flours you mentioned in your opening post, the hydration is typically 56-62%. However, there are doughs recipes where the hydration can be 70% and over. I would have to know more about the style of pizza the recipe is supposed to produce to be able to comment more intelligently.

A typical range of salt values for pizza dough (and bread dough as well) is 1.5-2%. However, some people like to use more, but usually below 3%. But, 3.52% salt (your measurement) is more characteristic of a dough that is intended to be used for acrobatic dough tossing contests. In those applications, the salt is made intentionally very high (in the inedible category for most people) to toughen the dough so that it can be used in acrobatic dough tossing.

Another point to keep in mind is that ingredients like salt and sugar are hygroscopic, that is, they pick up moisture from their surroundings. That could lead to weights on a scale that are higher than using a comparable ingredient that has not yet picked up moisture from its environment. There may also be age-related or storage-related variations. There are also different measuring spoons to take into account. They are made from all kinds of materials, they come from different manufacturers with different manufacturing facilities, and they can come in different shapes with different manufacturing tolerances. These variations can lead to different results when weighing the exact same materials on the same scale.

When I was involved in the design of the various dough calculating tools, I had to come up with conversion data for over forty different ingredients. Rather than using my scales to do the conversions for all of those ingredients, my first line of attack was to rely on either government data, such as available from http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/, or the data in the nutritiondata.com database at http://www.nutritiondata.com/. If I could not find the nutrition data for a particular ingredient in either of those two databases, I used the data given on labels for such products to the extent they were available. In some cases, I found that there were multiple sources of an ingredient, such as vital wheat gluten. In many of those cases, I averaged the conversion data for the multiple versions. It was only when I could not find conversion data for a given item anywhere that I used my MyWeigh 300-Z scale.

It would be impractical for me to suggest to our members that they all go out and buy more scales in order to get more accurate weights for items like yeast, salt, sugar and oil when the conversion data for such items, that is, volume measurements, is likely to be more reliable across the board, and certainly easier to use than using the scales. My recommendation is to use the scales to accurately weigh flour and water, and occasionally oil if used at high levels, and use the volume measurements for the other ingredients. Of course, if one were making commercial size batches of dough, using scales more widely to weight the larger quantities of ingredients would make sense.

Peter

Offline soflnoles

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2009, 11:45:41 AM »
I used honey for the first time yesterday and the coloring of the crust was perfect.

Offline Guts

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2009, 10:18:59 PM »
Peter thank you for the detailed explanation. I'm going to cut my salt in half for the next batch, And will post the results. You hit the nail on the head about [(characteristic of a dough that is intended to be used for acrobatic dough tossing contests.)] With this recipe I can throw the dough in the air no problem. The taste is not bad but I want to make the crust with more air bubbles. I'm going to give it one more try before I move to another recipe.
I will try to weigh the water and flour every time with my experiments, and measure the small ingredients. As far as getting a new scale, they are cheep enough no big deal.
Thank you again Peter
Guts/AKA/Kim
"Vegetarian - old Indian word for bad fisherman"

Offline Guts

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2009, 11:40:12 PM »
Here is the one I'm using now. This works for me a bit bread like but has some air in the crust too.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My 11/11/09 Dough

Makes Two 13 inch Pizza Pies

Cooked on 13 inch Stone... they come out 12± to 13 inch.

3  Cups Flour 1 C all purpose 2 C La Romanella; from smart and final.                          1 Lbs. / 454 ± Grams

Water 1 ¼ Cups       11 ¼ Oz. / 300 ± Grams / 300 Mill liters

Salt 1¼ tsp               8.7 ±  Grams

Sugar 4 tsp              17.1 Grams

Olive Oil 2 TBS        32.1 Grams

SAF- IDY 1¼ tsp         3.875 Grams  [ This waight is wrong, I need to rewaight this. ]

Total Dough weight  1Lb 11.5oz     754 Grams 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 11:42:44 PM by Guts »
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Offline Guts

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2009, 06:02:52 PM »
3  Cups Flour 1 Cup all purpose 2 Cups High Gluten flour  from smart and final(La Romanella brand).                         

Flour                                            460g/16.20oz/1.014Lb  (100%)

Water 1 ¼+Cups / 300ML/      300g/10.60oz/0.662Lb  (65%)

Salt 1¼ tsp                                   9.5g/  0.34oz  / 0.31Lb  (2.0652%)

Sugar 2 tsp                                  9.5g/  0.34oz /  0.31Lb  (4.1304%)

Olive Oil 2 TBS / 30ML           27.4g/ 0.97oz /  0.88 Lb   (5.9565%)

SAF- IDY 1¼ tsp                        4.5g/  0.16oz /   0.15Lb   (.9783%)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm back in the newbie box

Now I have some new toys ( infrared thermometer,KD 8000 scale,and 440-z pocket scale) I have changed some things. The weights are correct as best that I can tell.

My new experiment was to replace the sugar with simple syrup. To do this I weighted two tsp of sugar (9.5g) then added two tsp of water (11g)=20.5g this gave the weight of simple syrup 20.5g which added to my hydration rate bringing it up 2.3913 + 65.2174 = 67.6087% water. So I made this with no sugar and 20.5g of simple syrup. WOW! what a difference this made the dough tripled in size in three hours sitting on the counter @ around 67° I would have put it in the refrigerator but I was checking my eye lids for holes and when I woke up it had proofed over the container and was going for the counter. I believe that using simple syrup increases the proof time, as a newbie here please correct me if this is wrong. The reason I used simple syrup was to see if a dough could be made in a hurry. I going to try this again, as this is the first time I tried this. I'm just a little afraid to put it in the refrigerator over night and find the BLOB coming for me in the morning when I open the refrigerator. There was enough dough to make three pies 12 to 13 inch size. The rise was incredible! for this short time, in my opinion.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I also tried a screen for the first time today. The first pie was cooked on a stone at 598° then I moved the a rack in to the next level above the stone and inserted the screen with the pie. I will include a picture of the pies can you tell witch one was cooked on the screen? So far I'm Not a big fan using a screen to cook my pies. Both pies were cooked for 6.5 minutes.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 06:23:19 PM by Guts »
Guts/AKA/Kim
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2009, 07:13:58 PM »
Kim,

I believe you have ascribed powers to the sugar syrup that it does not have. You didn't indicate what the temperature of the water was that was used to make the dough, but just the 0.9783% IDY and the approximately 67 degrees F room temperature will cause very aggressive expansion of the dough. What you made is commonly referred to in the trade as an "emergency" or short-time or short term dough. Usually, a higher than normal water temperature is used along with an above average amount of yeast to make such an emergency dough, as in your case, but you will still get very high dough volume even at normal water temperatures. You can read about how an emergency dough is typically made, using the Lehmann NY style dough as an example, at Replies 407/408 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251.

What you did in using the sugar syrup was really not much different than just dissolving the sugar in the water in the mixer bowl, which is a very common practice. Moreover, you perhaps got little benefit than perhaps a somewhat sweeter crust by using the sugar because sugar is sucrose, which is a form of sugar that is not immediately available as food to feed the yeast, which in turn results in gases of fermentation that cause the dough to rise. The sucrose has to be converted by various enzymes to a different form for the yeast to be able to use it, and that transformation usually takes several hours--more than three hours.

Peter


Offline Guts

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2009, 07:33:34 PM »
Peter the water temp. was 129° when it went into the mixer. On the high side I know but the mixer was cold and the room was also around 63° I shot the dough a few minuets after mixing, reading was 89°

this link is not working(Reply) 407
http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/30245
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 08:29:57 PM by Guts »
Guts/AKA/Kim
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2009, 08:11:17 PM »
Kim,

If you used water temperature at 129 degrees F, that solidifies my position in my last post. The link you referenced in Reply 407 no longer works because it it to a former version of the PMQ Think Tank forum software that was replaced a few years ago. The older version was not archived, even though I asked the PMQ webmaster to do so. However, if you look at http://www.pmq.com/mag/200708/lehmann.php, you will see the general steps that Tom Lehmann recommends be taken to make an emergency dough, including using water about 15 degrees F higher than normal. I don't think that the link to Tom's Q&A discussion will be disappearing anytime soon, but to be on the safe side I have copied and pasted the Q&A below:

Question:
How do you make a good emergency dough?

Answer:
I’m really not sure that you can make a “good” emergency dough, but you can make an effective one that will allow you to keep your doors open when you might have had to otherwise close down due to the fact that you didn’t have any dough with which to work.

You might lose your dough due to any number of reasons, but the most common ones include loss of power during the night, resulting in your cooler warming up to the point where the dough began to actively ferment and grow right out of the dough boxes. In short, it “blew.” Another common reason to lose a dough is because of an ingredient scaling error such as: the yeast was not added, sugar or salt were not scaled, or the salt was scaled as the sugar (after all, they do look alike), and it was scaled again as the salt (trust the voice of experience, it can and does happen). Whatever the reason for dough failure, it is not pleasant to come into your store in the morning to discover that you don’t have any usable dough for the day. This is where an emergency dough comes into play. This is also not the time to be thinking about weighing up a dough that has radically different ingredients or ingredient amounts from your regular dough, so for the sake of simplicity, and comfort level, we want to keep the emergency dough as close to our regular dough as possible. The easiest way to accomplish this is to base our emergency dough on our regular dough formulation with only some minor changes to allow it to function as an emergency dough.

Here are the recommended changes needed to convert your regular pizza dough into an effective emergency dough:
Double the amount of yeast used in the dough.

Increase the temperature of the water used to make the dough by 15˚F. This should give you a dough that is close to the 90 to 95˚F temperature range than the commonly recommended 80 to 85˚F range. Even if your normal dough temperature is outside of this temperature range, the warmer water will result in a higher finished dough temperature, which is what we are looking for.

Mix the dough as you normally would.

Scale and ball the dough immediately after mixing, place into dough boxes or onto trays, cover, and allow to remain at room temperature for about 60 minutes, then check the dough to determine if it can be shaped by whatever procedure you use. If the dough isn’t ready, allow it to rest until it can be easily shaped into dough skins. From this time, you will only have about 90 minutes to use the dough. After that, it will become too gassy to use. You don’t have to toss the dough out though, you can shape the dough skins and place them on screens, disks, even cardboard pizza circles and store them in the cooler for use later in the day. Remember to keep an eye on your dough/skin inventory, as you will need to make more doughs during the day as needed. At the end of the day, discard any remaining emergency dough and prepare your regular dough for use on the following day(s).

Remember that emergency doughs generally exhibit a pronounced tendency to bubble during baking, so keep a bubble popper handy and keep an eye on the pizzas as they are baking.

I recommend that you convert a copy of your dough formula to an emergency dough and place it into a plastic sleeve in your office where you can get to it when needed. This will make things go a lot smoother when “that day” happens and your brains turn to mush as you try to sort things out. Just grab the emergency dough formula and begin scaling the ingredients without having to think about making changes. Follow the directions and you’re home free, or at least you will have dough to work with, which sure beats the alternative.


Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the piece on emergency dough, see http://web.archive.org/web/20080321081127/http://www.pmq.com/mag/20070607/lehmann.php
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 08:45:58 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Guts

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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2009, 09:25:50 PM »
Thank you Peter
I used this formula for a month now with some good results so far. I have made this formula and used one, and refrigerated the other one. Sometimes for just over 24 hours. It is true that it starts to fall after 30 plus hours. Increasing the hydration by 2% and using the simple syrup is what I changed. The water is heated the same way every time (heated in micro wave for 1:33), this why I can't understand the rise I got. I've done this before with this formula posted and never got this result, same time on the counter. I'm going to make this again and watch the Time very closely. Also think I may need to find a different way to store the dough balls. Right now I'm storing them in a bowl covered in plastic wrap. My refrigerator runs 38°f and it takes the dough three hours to even get close to room temperature. Maybe I need to rise on the counter then refrigerate the dough for the next day.
Guts/AKA/Kim
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Re: Newbie Sugar Question
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2009, 09:48:51 PM »
Kim,

A more highly hydrated dough will ferment faster than a lower hydrated dough but I am not sure that a roughly 2.6% difference in hydration will make much of a difference in the fermentation time.

BTW, the recommended method for tempering the dough ball is to warm it up AT room temperature, not to warm it up TO room temperature. Alternatively, if you have a thermometer, you should be able to open up a dough ball at a temperature of around 60-65 degrees F, although I would say that many of our members tend to prefer higher warmup temperatures (room temperature permitting) and long warmup times. 

Peter