Tried the Sir Lancelot Flour

[norma427]

ThunderStik,
Thanks for the advise and the picture showing your dough ball. You dough ball looks great. I am using a standard Lehmann recipe with a hydration of about 60 percent. 
I don't use dough boxes anymore since Tom Lehmann just told me to use food grade plastic bags.  I can store more dough that way and the temperatures of the dough fall a lot faster.  I kinda didn't think this would work, but after trying it am finding out it works well. Guess I should have know the dough doctor would know what he was talking about.  The dough can still rise in the plastic bag and it also keeps me from washing dough boxes. 
Do you ferment your dough for longer than 3 days with only using flour, water, salt, and yeast?
Norma

[ThunderStik]

Norma, yes I do fement for for longer than 3 days with only the basic ingredients. I do this on a regular basis. But it really comes down to what type of pie/crust/ flavor profile I feel like having and the time frame in which I want it to be ready.

I have a usual "goto" recipe where I only change the yeast levels depending what day of the week it is. In my family we like to have pizza at least once a week. Monday is sandwich day as nobody wants to cook or anything and everybody is just groggy from the weekend so that leaves me only 6 other days of the week to have pizza. I also have band practice once a week so that cuts it down to 5 days, plus I usually smoke something (pork butt, ribs etc..) for sundays meal so this knocks it down to 4 possible days I have for pizza.

Given our schedule my recipe really depends on what day I mix the dough and which of those days I want to have it done. If I know its going to be the next day I use .08% yeast, 2-5 days I use .04, any further than that and I use .02. The .02 is usually good for about 4-5 day window after the initial 4-5 days. If I want to go out further I will add the yeast late in the process and this will add about 1.5-2 days at the end. Then you could use cold water and so on and so on.

This all depends on the hydration though, and what I want. If i use more hydration I use less yeast. Less hydration I use more.

At the same time I will do experiments on nights that we may have other stuff for dinner so as not subject my family to my own obssessions.

Thats why I have not posted anything in the last month, my family had been hammered with pizza for a while so I decided to give them a break while I thought about more experiments to do. As a side note I made pizza this past weekend, and there was 1 piece left out of 3 16" pies. So giveing them a break made them love it even more. And I also did an experiment which was very nice and turned out perfectly.

Anyway sorry for all the rambling, I just get caught up talking about pizza as this is the only place I get to do it. I dont know anybody else that has this addiction that I can discuss things with.

[Pete-zza]

Do you have any suggestions how the dough was usable after 8 days and no sugar added to my standard Lehmann dough? 

Norma,

I devoted a good part of an entire thread to the subject of geriatric doughs, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. I used the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as the guinea pig for many of my experiments and made doughs that went out to over 20 days of cold fermentation, using no sugar in the dough at all. I also discovered that I could increase the hydration to 65%, using flour sifting and other measures. In many cases, the crust flavors, colors and textures were among the best that I have ever achieved.

What ThunderStik says is correct based on my experience. It comes down to yeast quantity, when the yeast is introduced into the dough, and cold temperatures pretty much up and down the line. I also discovered that it was possible to use ADY in dry form to slow down the fermentation process. What I don't know is if the methods that ThunderStik and I used translate to a commercial pizza operation. But, if the procedures are scrupulously followed--and that is perhaps the hardest part--it is possible to get long-lived doughs in a home environment with good finished crust characteristics.

Peter

[norma427]

ThunderStik,
That great to hear you have a "goto" recipe depending on what day of the week you want to make pizza.  I haven't achieved that.  I have been using about .024 IDY and about 60% hydration.  I have been experimenting with the water temperature, though the summer and now that the weather is cooler so I can get a consistent finished dough temperature. 
I really like to hear about other peoples dough making experiences, so you are not rambling to me.  The more I can read and hear what other people have tried are all a help to me.  I could also talk about pizza forever. 
Do you mind telling what your experiment was?
Thanks for your advise. 
Norma

Peter,
It's good to hear you did experiments about not adding sugar in a Lehmann dough. I will read though your thread about your experiments and not using sugar for a longer fermentation. 
I don't know how this would work out in my setting, but am willing to try.  Like you said the procedures have to be followed very carefully. 
I will try my dough I left in the deli case next week and see if it is still useable. 
I will then try to incorporate some of your methods for making the dough.  I will only use trial batches for awhile.
I really liked the taste of this crust from the poor dough that was left in the deli case. 
Thank you for your help.
Norma 

[ThunderStik]

Norma, In the last few years I have really become interested in cooking. Mainly because since we have moved out to the sticks it has become hard to get some of our favorite foods. So when I cook, I cook what is good to my own tastes.

A few years ago my wife had to have a surgery on her esophagus and thus sometimes has a hard time with some foods like bread and some meats.

Well she has a hard time eating my pizza's as I like them a little chewier and less moist than most. Well I figured I would come up with a good dough that I could make for her that would be moist, less tough but still let you know you were eating pizza. Above all it had to taste good but I wanted shorter gluten strands so they would break up easier and be easier for her to eat.

So I sat down and figured up what I wanted and what I thought she would like. I made a few 16"s and they turned out absolutely perfectly the way I had intended it. She loved and said it was the best pie I had ever made. My boys loved it also, and I must say it was quite good.

Instead of bread flour I started out with AP (which I had not messed with AP but once or twice), then traded 4% of my flour out for bread flour. Did a 20 min autolyse, 7% olive oil, 4% HONEY, .4% IDY, 2.5% salt and the hydration was 60% I believe.

It is quite different from my usual dough but it was very good. So I guess I will be putting that dough in the "rotation". Its nice to be getting to the point where I can figure out what I want and generally be able to figure out how to get there.

Here is a couple of pics.

[ThunderStik]

Profile.

[Pete-zza]

Instead of bread flour I started out with AP (which I had not messed with AP but once or twice), then traded 4% of my flour out for bread flour. Did a 20 min autolyse, 7% olive oil, 4% HONEY, .04% IDY, 2.5% salt and the hydration was 60% I believe.

Its nice to be getting to the point where I can figure out what I want and generally be able to figure out how to get there.

Bill,

If you are using 0.04% IDY, does that mean that you are using a fairly long room temperature fermentation, or did you possibly mean 0.40% for a cold fermentation application? There are actually a lot of similarities between your dough formulation and a Papa John's dough, especially the use of high levels of oil and sweetener (I have tried both table sugar and honey for my PJ clones).

What you have done with the "design" of your latest pizza for your wife and kids shows that you have learned how dough and the ingredients work and how to modify and control them and the applicable temperatures to meet your particular purposes. Congratulations.

Peter

[ThunderStik]

Pete, that .04 was a typo, it has been fixed.


Well that stinks, I thought I had done something on my own and come to find out its a PJ pie. That figures

But I will say it was good. Either way it felt like an accomplishment. And it was great to see the look on her face as she was happy and could eat it without problems. Now I have to go investigate that PJ clone thread.

Thank you for the props Pete, it does mean alot.

Bill.

[Pete-zza]

Bill,

At the PJ clone thread, you will find a PJ clone dough using as little as 0.025% IDY, for a 12-hour room-temperature fermentation, and also a PJ clone dough using 0.0125%, for a 24-hour room-temperature fermentation. That is what prompted my question about the amount of your yeast and the type of fermentation. 

I didn't think to ask you what size pizzas you have been making for your wife and the amount of dough you have been using for that size, but there is another thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.0.html, that covers other PJ clone versions that were developed from a basic PJ clone dough that came out of the work of another member, Randy. My versions are thin versions of Randy's pizzas and embrace other modifications that evolved over time. A thicker crust pizza might be preferable for your wife but the thin versions are also very good, even if a bit chewier. However, because I use pizza screens for the PJ clone pizzas, the bottoms of the crusts are softer than those baked on a pizza stone. So, screens are another possibility for you to consider.

Peter

[ThunderStik]

Pete, I have been making 16" pies all the way around. Thats about all I do anymore.  There is no challenge in working with anything smaller really. It had been a while since the last time I made a really wet dough and making a 16 thats pretty wet can be alot of fun (read challenging).

I usually make my pies pretty thin. I have been using a TF of about .06 but in anticipation of this dough being a little more slack I used .08 if I remember right. The good thing was the wife said whenI make "that" dough that I could make it a little thicker if I wanted to as she had no trouble eating it.

Usually when I want a "pan" type effect I move my stone to the top level in the oven and I get a bit of that softer texture. But im sure it would not be nearly like a screen. Thanks for the suggestion, I will look into a screen. Although I do feel like using a screen cheating somehow. 

[norma427]

ThunderStik,
Your recent experiment looks awesome.  I love your airy crust.  Could eat a slice of your pie right now.
Sorry to hear that your wife has trouble eating different foods.  It's good though you are cooking and even especially paying attention to what she can eat.  When my husband had a ball fall at home 3  and a half years ago he broke his neck and had to have a feeding tube for two and a half years.  He wasn't allowed to eat or drink anything. If he tried it would turn into pneumonia, then he got MRSA in the hospital. I don't know how he did it, but he had the will to live even if he couldn't eat.  I couldn't imagine not being able to eat what I want, but I saw many people besides my husband that have problems every time he went in for a video swallow or was in the hospital.  Eating is a basic thing for all of us. 
I still am experimenting trying things out and am learning new things over time. 
Thanks for sharing your experiment.
Norma

[ThunderStik]

Norma, Im sorry to hear about your husband...thats just terrible. I never knew just how big a part of our lives cooking/eating food is until she had the surgery. Of course you wouldnt know that by looking at me, as im 6'3 and 300lbs.

But I know my wife in the beginning would sit and cry because she couldnt eat hardly at all. Then she told me "you cant imagine what its like not to be able to eat your favorite things". I know it was very taxing mentally, and physically. As time went on though she began to be able to work things in and after a few years now she can eat just about anything, but some meats and bread products still give her trouble.

While not as extreme as your husband it was an eye opening experience for me. I hope your husband has gotten better.

As far as my airy crusts, Get a hot stone (600+) let the dough set out a proper amount of time to come up to room temp, use proper handling and make sure its properly fermented. Do those things and you will have that type of crust. I had to learn how NOT to do it.

[norma427]

ThunderStik,
I had experienced the same thing as you, not realizing how lucky we are when we can eat.  I'm sure you wife went though a lot though the whole time she couldn't eat much.  I sure wasn't the one to go though all the problems, but saw what my husband had to go though.  That's great to hear your wife can eat a lot more thing, now.  I can't imagine what goes though peoples minds that can't eat.  You never know what you might have to go though in life.  My husband passed away last December.  He had so many things wrong with him, but still maintained a positive attitude until the day he passed away.  He was a tough character and I will always have fond memories of all the work we did together.  That is how I eventually got into the pizza business.  We had to sell our other business because I couldn't do it alone.  I have learned though all of this that if you are having problems you just take it a day at a time.
Thanks for suggesting the stone, but I don't make pizzas at home, just at the market.  It has become my new passion..lol  Maybe some day I will try making pizza at home.
Norma

[ThunderStik]

Norma, Im sorry to hear about your husband. Im sure that he knew and by all accounts as far as I can tell he had a good woman with every step of the way, just the same as men "good ones are hard to find".

As a man its somewhat hard to say but it is true that in any good relationship the women are our source of strength.

And once again im sorry for your loss.

Back on topic, I will going to pick up my sack of KASL tomorrw. They called and said it was in. I may pick up a log of that boars head mozz also as they are a boars head dealer. So i should have my first batch done in a few days.

[norma427]

ThunderStik,
Good to hear you got your KASL.  Looking forward to seeing your posts about your pies!
Thanks for the condolences. 
Norma

[norma427]

Here is a pie I made today with the KASL. It was made with red and green peppers and mushrooms.  It kinda looks like Christmas. I just decided to do something different.  I also made a pineapple and ham pizza, but didn't take any pictures of that pie.
Norma

[norma427]

I was searching the web about KASL and came across this article on KASL at http://www.pizzadaddy.com/pizzainfo/glossary/s   The pizza glossary  and pizza info are interesting. 

King Arthur's Sir Lancelot (KASL) flour is a high-quality, high protein, high-gluten flour produced by the King Arthur Flour Company based in Norwich, Vermont. This flour is available in large quantities (50-lb. bags) from various bakery distributors, foodservice companies and other intermediaries, some of whom will sell to individuals on a cash-and-carry basis (the KASL flour is not presently sold at the retail level.) The KASL is made from 100% hard red spring wheat, is malted to increase enzyme performance, and has a protein level of 14.2% ± 2%, an ash level of 0.52% ± 0.02%, and an absorption rate of 63% ± 2%. The KASL tolerates a long dough fermentation time and will exhibit greater browning and chewiness in the finished crust than other flours. These characteristics of the flour make it especially suitable for thin New York style pizzas. Because of its high gluten content, King Arthur does not recommend hand kneading doughs made from the KASL. See also KING ARTHUR FLOUR COMPANY.

I was wondering since the KASL tolerates a long dough fermentation, is malted to increase enzyme performace and will exhibit greater browning in the finshed crust than other flour if this is why I like this flour so well.  This also makes me wonder about the small dough batches 4 oz. that had a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F and I still could use the dough after refrigeration for 8 days.  Does anyone have any experience in how long fermentation can occur with KASL?
Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

It looks like pizzadaddy lifted our forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#A. As soon as I read the entry on the KASL, I knew it was our information. It would have been nice for pizzadaddy to give attribution to our forum, but I did not see any. Maybe Steve and I, as authors of the Pizza Glossary, should be flattered.

With respect to the KASL, it is a quality flour in pretty much all respects (although some may prefer bromated flours) and that perhaps explains why you like it so much. But it still comes down to personal preferences. In some instances, that personal preference may be guided by cost also. The KASL seems to be priced higher than many other high-gluten flours.

I would say that the methods used to prepare the dough are more likely to govern the window of usability of the dough than the flour itself. I used the KASL to make doughs that lasted longer than 20 days. But it was the methods used that were primarily responsible. I think those methods will also work with lower protein flours of lesser quality also.

Peter

[norma427]

I am still experimenting on making the flatbread for panini’s.  So far I have found out it you bake the dough too long, the panini will be harder to fold over and make the best taste in the finished panini.  Since the panini grill does grill the bread and I brush with olive oil before grilling, I don’t really think it had to be baked really long. So far I think this is the best approach.  I will keep on experimenting until I think the dough is satisfactory. 
I am still very satisfied with the KASL flour. 
Here are some pictures of the 4 oz. dough,  panini baking and the finished crust. 
Norma

[Matthew]

I am still experimenting on making the flatbread for panini’s.  So far I have found out it you bake the dough too long, the panini will be harder to fold over and make the best taste in the finished panini.  Since the panini grill does grill the bread and I brush with olive oil before grilling, I don’t really think it had to be baked really long. So far I think this is the best approach.  I will keep on experimenting until I think the dough is satisfactory. 
I am still very satisfied with the KASL flour. 
Here are some pictures of the 4 oz. dough,  panini baking and the finished crust. 
Norma

Norma,
I have made them in my WFO with amazing results & the trick to maintaining the texture is without a doubt a quick bake time in very high heat.  You can however get excellent results by shaping the dough a little thicker & giving them a quick char on the Grill.  You can then place your coldcuts, cheese, etc on top, roll them up & finish them in a panini press. 

Matt