Author Topic: Newbie, help :)  (Read 2728 times)

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Offline bernie516

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Newbie, help :)
« on: November 06, 2009, 12:13:50 AM »
Hey everyone,

I'm new to the forum here and was wondering if there was a sticky anywhere that covered a basic neapolitan pizza dough + step by step guide on forming and baking the pizza?  I"m using a pizza stone in my home oven..

thanks!

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2009, 12:38:56 AM »
Welcome, Newbie. Your request is not an uncommon one. Problem is this kind of dough defies simple step-by-step directions for the home oven. Such recipes exist in most books on pizza making, but if they were effective at producing authentic Neapolitan crusts, we would not have 500 threads with over 6000 posts on this forum just on Neapolitan pies.

A major barrier is that, strictly speaking, Neapolitan-style pies are baked at temps much higher than your home oven can achieve. That is not to say you can't make great pies in your home oven on a stone. But whether they would fit definition of "Neapolitan" may be subject to debate. Most important are the characteristics you care about. So, when you say "basic Neapolitan dough", what exactly do you mean? Texture? Taste? Thickness? Is there a particular pizzeria's crust you are trying to copy?   


Offline Essen1

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2009, 12:41:03 AM »
Welcome, Newbie. Your request is not an uncommon one. Problem is this kind of dough defies simple step-by-step directions for the home oven. Such recipes exist in most books on pizza making, but if they were effective at producing authentic Neapolitan crusts, we would not have 500 threads with over 6000 posts on this forum just on Neapolitan pies.

A major barrier is that, strictly speaking, Neapolitan-style pies are baked at temps much higher than your home oven can achieve. That is not to say you can't make great pies in your home oven on a stone. But whether they would fit definition of "Neapolitan" may be subject to debate. Most important are the characteristics you care about. So, when you say "basic Neapolitan dough", what exactly do you mean? Texture? Taste? Thickness? Is there a particular pizzeria's crust you are trying to copy?  



And I was just about to suggest the use of the search feature on here.

But Bill's right. The question is what you're after.
Mike

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Offline bernie516

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2009, 12:54:40 AM »
Welcome, Newbie. Your request is not an uncommon one. Problem is this kind of dough defies simple step-by-step directions for the home oven. Such recipes exist in most books on pizza making, but if they were effective at producing authentic Neapolitan crusts, we would not have 500 threads with over 6000 posts on this forum just on Neapolitan pies.

A major barrier is that, strictly speaking, Neapolitan-style pies are baked at temps much higher than your home oven can achieve. That is not to say you can't make great pies in your home oven on a stone. But whether they would fit definition of "Neapolitan" may be subject to debate. Most important are the characteristics you care about. So, when you say "basic Neapolitan dough", what exactly do you mean? Texture? Taste? Thickness? Is there a particular pizzeria's crust you are trying to copy?   



Hi Bill,

Thanks for the response!  As far as what I'm looking for, I truly enjoy the pizzas I've had at A16 and Delfina in San Francisco and am going after that texture, taste and thickness.  So i guess that's the crust I'm looking to copy.  I've tried the recipe in the A16 cookbook and am not getting the results I'm looking for.  The last pizza I made using that recipe came out very thick (under the toppings and the outer crust/rim).  It was not airy and thin like I remember the pizza at A16 being.. 

I'm thinking that I either got the dough wrong or I was forming the pie incorrectly.  I'm heating my oven up to 550 F with my pizza stone for approximately 1 hour before baking the pie.  I followed the recipe word for word except I let it rise for an hour at room temperature before letting it cold rise in the refrigerator for 36 hours..

Thanks!

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2009, 04:46:33 AM »
There are several threads on A16's crust:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2704.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8256.0.html

Plenty more.

I have eaten at A16 but do not have the cookbook. However, I would seriously doubt - very, very seriously doubt - that the recipe in the book is the same one they are using in restaurant in their wood-fired oven.  Airy and thin typically required high-hydration and high temps, much higher temps than you can get in your oven and stone.

Offline jeff v

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2009, 09:04:21 AM »
Bernie,

Although it was a few years ago and may have changed, Nate told me the dough at A-16 was 3 days old, so that's at least one huge deviation from the book.

Aside from working on your shaping, you may want to add 1-2% oil in your dough to help compensate for the long time in a lower temp oven.

Jeff

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2009, 11:39:29 AM »
bernie516,

The forum is littered with the bodies of members who came to the forum seeking success making Neapolitan style pizzas with any authenticity in their standard kitchen home ovens. Some members ended up buying or making very high temperature ovens capable of making quite authentic Neapolitan style pizzas, and some made LBEs (Little Black Eggs) or purchased commercial 2Stone units in the search of higher oven temperatures. A few no doubt defeated their oven clean cycles in order to get more heat. Authenticity of the Neapolitan style also calls for using 00 flours. So, that pretty much rules out most of the Neapolitan style dough recipes that you will find on the Internet and in pizza cookbooks that call for using all-purpose flour or combinations of all-purpose flour, bread flour, cake flour and pastry flour.

I don't want to leave you with the impression that you can't make a worthy Neapolitan style pizza in your home oven. You will just have to change the rules that normally apply to Neapolitan style pizzas. I described some of the changes at Reply 250 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg23927.html#msg23927. The pizza you want to look at is Pizza #3. The dough formulation I used for that pizza is the one set forth at Reply 62 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12549.html#msg12549.

I also later discovered that using Caputo 00 flour with a domestic flour, such as a high-gluten flour, makes good pizzas in a standard home oven. I discussed some of my more successful efforts with such flour combinations in a series of posts starting at Reply 130 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.msg28423.html#msg28423. For further particulars, see also Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3673.msg30928.html#msg30928.

If you are willing to consider using a natural starter/preferment, you can also get credible results using a home oven, as discussed at Reply 43 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25809.html#msg25809, Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25807.html#msg25807 and Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25847.html#msg25847.

The above represents the best that I could accomplish with the Neapolitan style after countless experiments in my home oven and after literally hundreds of posts on the subject.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2009, 12:16:51 PM »
The forum is littered with the bodies of members who came to the forum seeking success making Neapolitan style pizzas with any authenticity in their standard kitchen home ovens.

Aha! So that is where the smell is coming from!  ;D

Infoodel

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2009, 12:32:36 PM »
Quote
The forum is littered with the bodies of members who came to the forum seeking success making Neapolitan style pizzas with any authenticity in their standard kitchen home ovens.

Bernie,
In the end almost all of these 'authenticity' debates come down to a personal view of what constitutes authenticity. In other words, where do you draw the line?
You can debate the minutiae ad infinitum and in my mind lead ever closer to saying -  leave 'vera pizza napoletana' in Naples and make your own damn pizza. At the risk of coming across as an extreme sceptic, I've found  that opinions regarding this subject (not necessarily on this forum) are often proportional to the investment  that an individual has made in that area - ovens, ingredients, training, certification, commercial interests.
If what you make in the end is not 'authentic' even by your own estimation, learning about the various aspects of Neapolitan-style Pizza is still a great education about pizza in general.  I know it has been for me - but then I've no pretentions of becoming VPN-certified...ever! nor do I value that as a worthy goal for my path in life.

Striving to make great pizza is the important thing. If you're doing that right, one could care less about authenticity.

Toby



« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 03:27:20 PM by Infoodel »

Offline artigiano

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2009, 12:47:56 PM »
well said Toby, I totally agree.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2009, 02:20:35 PM »
The important point is the one that Bill/SFNM raised about defining what Bernie means by "basic Neapolitan pizza dough".

Based on my exposure to the subject, I would generally classify Neapolitan pizza doughs into four categories:

1) Authentic Neapolitan pizza doughs using 00 flours and a very high temperature oven. Purists might even demand that the oven be a very high temperature wood burning oven based on Neapolitan design methods. This is the category where the VPN and disciplinaire documents are likely to come into play, even though many operators do not care about such documents and do not follow them, either in Italy or in the U.S. For those who want to play in this sandbox, there are quite a few Neapolitan style dough formulations on this forum and many other places as well.

2) Neapolitan style pizza doughs made in a standard home oven, using 00 flours. This is the category where I spent all of my time and where I developed many of the dough formulations and methods referenced in my earlier posts. In this category, one can be as simple or as sophisticated as desired with dough formulations and dough preparation and management methods. The only objective is to make the best possible pizza in a standard home oven, even if it doesn't rise to the standards of many of the Neapolitan style pizzas possible under the first category mentioned above.

3. Neapolitan analogs. This is a category where "analogs" of Neapolitan style pizza doughs are created where 00 flours are unavailable for some reason and one wishes to simulate 00 flours as closely as possible. Examples include using all-purpose flour (or European counterpart flours), and blends of all-purpose flour, bread flour, cake flour and pastry flour (and even vital wheat gluten). There is a sizeable number of threads and posts on this forum on these "analogs". In many cases, the results can be quite good, even if not up to the standards possible under the first two categories. Until 00 flours became available to home users at the retail level, many home pizza makers used analog flour blends. In fact, my very first "Neapolitan style" pizza dough was based on an analog flour blend. 00 flours were not available at the retail level. For those who live in places where 00 flours are still not available, the analog blends are essentially the only alternative.

4. Other. This is essentially a catch-all category and technically not a Neapolitan style category. It is where I would place doughs made using blends of 00 flours and other flours. But this is an important category, for a couple of reasons. First, it is a way of using up 00 flours that have not met the expectations of users, either because of the lack of the best oven (in the view of the user) or because the 00 flours didn't satisfy user taste preferences. Second, blends of 00 flours and other flours, especially high-gluten flour, produce very good crusts. At least good enough for Dom Demarco at DiFara's, who uses such a blend. So, if I were dissatisfied with 00 flour for any reason, I would not discard it without first trying a blend with some other flour. For some members, such blends have become favorites.

Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2009, 03:19:11 PM »
I don't know if Delfina really qualifies as an authentic Neapolitan pizza. I think it's a hybrid of sorts. And they bake their pies at 700°F in a gas steel deck oven, lined with bricks.

A16 is a total different animal altogether. Their oven is a WFO as you can see here:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2009/09/a16-marina-district-neapolitan-wood-oven-pizza-sf-ca.html

In regards to the recipe that's featured in the book, I doubt that they'd print their own recipe. And I could imagine that they use Baker's percentages and grams instead of measuring in volumes, as is shown in the book.

Below's the Delfina oven and a pie...

Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2009, 04:21:51 PM »
Mike,

You can get into some pretty heated discussions and arguments as to what constitutes a "Neapolitan" style pizza. There is a lot of mischaracterization of that style, some of which may be through ignorance (often the case with journalists and other writers) or intentional, in order to trade off of the goodwill that is commonly associated with the authentic Neapolitan style as practiced in Naples and by others using 00 flours and very high temperature wood-fired ovens of Italian design. As you will note at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/mbauer/detail?blogid=26&entry_id=24704, Delfina uses a Marsal gas deck oven at 680 degrees F for about 5 minutes to produce a pizza that the author of the abovereferenced piece describes as: Thin crust, Neapolitan style with a nod to New York. Fusions or hybrids like this often make it difficult to characterize certain pizza styles. It is occasionally even a problem for the Moderators of this forum to put threads into the proper or best-fitting board.

Peter




Offline Essen1

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2009, 05:03:51 PM »
Peter,

Michael Bauer, our local food critic, says it best in his article, hence my mention of a hybrid of sorts. But authentic Neapolitan...I don't think it is.

My understanding of an authentic Neapolitan-style pie is the use of 00 flour, a WFO,  no oil and no sugar in the dough. And I guess that makes the recipe in A16's book not an authentic one, either, since it mentions 2 Tbsp - or is it 2 tsp? - oil.

I know one could argue about what an authentic Neapolitan dough or pizza is until the cows come home, VPN certified, only from Naples, only the use of a WFO, etc. but I think that would take the fun away from making a good pizza.  ::)

Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2009, 05:21:09 PM »
Mike,

As many of us discovered, especially after prompting from Marco (pizzanapoletana), oil is almost obligatory to be able to make a Neapolitan style pizza in a standard home oven (along with a lower hydration than many of our members were using). However, I found that I did not need oil in the dough when I used a natural starter/preferment, which came as a big (and pleasant) surprise. But, for commercially leavened doughs, I found that I needed some oil in the dough. It would therefore be logical that a dough recipe in the A16 book intended for home oven use would call for some oil.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2009, 06:16:47 PM »
Mike,

As many of us discovered, especially after prompting from Marco (pizzanapoletana), oil is almost obligatory to be able to make a Neapolitan style pizza in a standard home oven (along with a lower hydration than many of our members were using). However, I found that I did not need oil in the dough when I used a natural starter/preferment, which came as a big (and pleasant) surprise. But, for commercially leavened doughs, I found that I needed some oil in the dough. It would therefore be logical that a dough recipe in the A16 book intended for home oven use would call for some oil.

Peter

Makes sense.

I was just trying to compare the book recipe to the authentic Naples pizza dough. I wasn't thinking about home use, to be honest.
Mike

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Offline thezaman

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2009, 08:04:55 PM »
how is a16 vpn certified if the use oil in their pizza dough?

Offline jeff v

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2009, 09:34:35 PM »
how is a16 vpn certified if the use oil in their pizza dough?

Whos said they use oil in their dough?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2009, 10:05:36 PM »
how is a16 vpn certified if the use oil in their pizza dough?


Larry,

The US VPN Rules, at http://www.anticapizzeria.net/vpn/rules.html, do not specifically preclude the use of olive oil in the dough, but the VPN Disciplinare document, at http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/images/file/disciplinare%202008%20UK.pdf, does. In the case of A16, I would guess either lax enforcement of the rules or just looking away from technical violations. As an example, I was once told by the former chief pizzaiolo of Naples 45, also a VPN member, that they did not always use San Marzano tomatoes. Maybe it was somewhat an exaggeration, but the reason given was that they made so many pizzas they would have used up the entire production of the San Marzanos.

It might also be possible that A16 sought an exemption from the US VPN Rules.

Jeff,

The predicate of the analysis of the A16 dough in the A16 thread was the use of oil in the dough. In fact, I commented on A16's violation of the VPN Rules by using oil in the dough (as well as ADY instead of fresh yeast) at Reply 3, item 1), at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg11695.html#msg11695.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Newbie, help :)
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2009, 10:29:28 PM »
Well, I just checked a video on A16 and Nate Appleman, the now departed VPN-certified chef/pizzaiolo, listed the ingredients of the dough:

00 flour, Yeast, water, salt and a little bit of olive oil.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/mbauer/detail?blogid=26&entry_id=25705

By the way, our member JJerrier's comment was featured in the SF Chronicle in connection with A 16! now how cool is that, huh??  ;D

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/23/FDVN1085F6.DTL
Mike

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